Dry Dock: World War II Navies Compared

[The_EURL_Guy]

Learn about the strengths and weaknesses of the warring nations’ navies!

Read it on the portal

[Maris_Piper]

A nice taster to get people into Naval History, or to pique some ones  curiosity to delve further 

[_Argas_]

Great video, I enjoyed it quite a lot. It's one think to hear numbers in war documentaries, but showing different periods of war and graphicaly compare each naval powers is something I never seen before and it gave me much better insight. More videos like this please 

[YabbaCoe]

Před 38 minutami _Argas_ řekl/a:

Great video, I enjoyed it quite a lot. It's one think to hear numbers in war documentaries, but showing different periods of war and graphicaly compare each naval powers is something I never seen before and it gave me much better insight. More videos like this please 

I am glad, that you like this one. Which one of Dry Dock series would you like as a next one?

[Killer__Croc]

Loved the video , it was truly well made and most importantly informing .

Whoever came up with the idea and participated so that this gets made , has my regards .

[TheWarJaC]

1 hour ago, keyhanzm said:

Loved the video , it was truly well made and most importantly informing .

Whoever came up with the idea and participated so that this gets made , has my regards .

Yup, I think the same: extremely well made and informing. Thanks, Captain! 😊

[rage1750]

5 hours ago, YabbaCoe said:

I am glad, that you like this one. Which one of Dry Dock series would you like as a next one?

 

Can we have Slava next or the journey of Nurnburg from building to being scrapped in the 1960's as the Admiral Makarov?  

 

Admiral Makarov may be the winner actually, more people seem to be raving about her of late than Slava for some reason 

 

[MojaEkscelencja]

The film unfortunately contains lying propaganda.

It says that the USSR entered the war in 1941, which is falsifying history.

The USSR, along with Germany, caused World War II by attacking Poland on September 17, 1939, and Finland a few months later.

 

A worthy imitation of Joseph Goebbels, who said: "A lie repeated 1000 times becomes the truth".

[gabberworld]

12 minutes ago, MojaEkscelencja said:

The film unfortunately contains lying propaganda.

It says that the USSR entered the war in 1941, which is falsifying history.

The USSR, along with Germany, caused World War II by attacking Poland on September 17, 1939, and Finland a few months later.

 

A worthy imitation of Joseph Goebbels, who said: "A lie repeated 1000 times becomes the truth".

 

i think you not needed use ships for go Poland and Finland as they both was land connection

[EuropeanEagle_]

17 minuti fa, MojaEkscelencja ha scritto:

The film unfortunately contains lying propaganda.

It says that the USSR entered the war in 1941, which is falsifying history.

The USSR, along with Germany, caused World War II by attacking Poland on September 17, 1939, and Finland a few months later.

 

A worthy imitation of Joseph Goebbels, who said: "A lie repeated 1000 times becomes the truth".

Nope.

while it is true that the USSR invaded Poland, ww2 was caused by Germany, not the USSR.

World Ward 2 did not begin with just the invasion of Poland. The true start would be with the UK and France declaring war on Germany for invading Poland. They didn't declare war on the USSR.

The declaration of war on Germany, therefore the start of ww2, was a reaction to the GERMAN invasion.

The USSR did invade Poland, but that was not part of ww2. USSR fought in ww2 from 1941, after Operation Barbarossa. And no, the Winter War was NOT ww2. it was a separate war.

 

By your logic then, WW2 started in 1938 with the Anschluss of Austria. Or even with the invasion of Ethiopia by Italy.

although these events did eventually bring to the war, they were not ww2 yet.

[MojaEkscelencja]

20 minutes ago, EuropeanEagle_ said:

 

while it is true that the USSR invaded Poland, ww2 was caused by Germany, not the USSR.

 

Have you heard about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact ?

Without this pact Hitler probably wouldn't start the war because of the guarantees given to Poland by Great Britain and France.

 

Anschluss was welcomed by most Austrians, so what kind of "war" are you talking about? 

 

You are as much a victim of propaganda and hypocrisy of history as the makers of the video this thread is about.

[Zemeritt]

2 hours ago, EuropeanEagle_ said:

By your logic then, WW2 started in 1938 with the Anschluss of Austria. Or even with the invasion of Ethiopia by Italy.

although these events did eventually bring to the war, they were not ww2 yet.

 

Actually, more historians argue that the war started with the 2nd Sino-Japanese war in 1937.

 

Alas, the Soviets actions in 1939/1940 are not counted towards the WW, for whatever reason.

 

 

OT: Nice video. Only thing really missing is the insane rate with which the US Navy exploded per class.

[WWDragon]

3 hours ago, EuropeanEagle_ said:

World Ward 2 did not begin with just the invasion of Poland. The true start would be with the UK and France declaring war on Germany for invading Poland. They didn't declare war on the USSR.

Yes, the Polish-British Common Defense Pact said "if a European power attacked Poland" with a secret protocol that said that by European power it meant Germany, the Kasprzycki-Gamelin Convention (Polish-French) was as well against Germany even if the older Franco-Polish Alliance was against both Germany and the Soviet Union.

 

The reason why they didnt declared war on the USSR is because quite frankly they didnt need to bring the Soviet Union to the Axis side as that would be a incredible stupid idea and defeating Germany first would restore Poland and then they could deal with the USSR if they wished to remain there, chances are if things gone that way that the Soviets would leave since their public excuse for invading was that Poland ceased to exist and the Soviet Union needed to occupy then for their own safety.

 

Were the Poles screwed? yes ... but then again they could just give the Germans the Danzig Corridor even if that mean picking being in the German  but hey, lets also not talk about the post WWII Polish borders shall we?

[MojaEkscelencja]

6 hours ago, WWDragon said:

 but then again they could just give the Germans the Danzig Corridor even if that mean picking being in the German  but hey, lets also not talk about the post WWII Polish borders shall we?

 

The corridor was only one of Hitler's demands. Accepting the German ultimatum would also mean joining the Anti-Komintern Pact (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact).

 

If Poland had accepted Hitler's demands German invasion of Western Europe could have taken place in 1939.

Hitler would have had about a million additional soldiers at his disposal, and in the Battle of Britain several hundred well-trained Polish pilots would have fought together with the Luftwaffe against the RAF (many have probably heard of No. 303 Squadron or the Skalski's Circus - just imagine that these pilots would not defend London but would help in destroying the remnants of the RAF), in 1941 Hitler would have had a few hundred kilometers less from the border to Moscow, and with him would have attacked 80-100 Polish divisions, perfectly motivated to fight against the USSR.

 

History could have turned out quite differently, but I am not convinced that our world would have been better.   

 

6 hours ago, Zemeritt said:

Alas, the Soviets actions in 1939/1940 are not counted towards the WW, for whatever reason.

By Soviet (poor peace-loving Stalin was forced to war by nasty Germans) and Western (let's somehow justify the betrayal of Czechoslovakia in 1938, Poland in 1939 by English and French politicians and the giving up of Eastern Europe to Stalin at Jałta in 1945) propaganda. 

The Russians murdered tens of thousands of Polish officers and policemen in Katyn, Kharkov, Tver in 1940 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre). How could they do that since they allegedly did not participate in the war until 1941? 

 

Again "A lie repeated 1000 times becomes the truth", right?

[YabbaCoe]

Před 9 hodinami MojaEkscelencja řekl/a:

The film unfortunately contains lying propaganda.

It says that the USSR entered the war in 1941, which is falsifying history.

The USSR, along with Germany, caused World War II by attacking Poland on September 17, 1939, and Finland a few months later.

 

A worthy imitation of Joseph Goebbels, who said: "A lie repeated 1000 times becomes the truth".

Hello.

Though it is known, that some countries were fighting and invading other countries worldwide during that time, those are still undestood as particular wars.

As it is in various publication mentioned and also in our video, USSR entered Global conflict known as World War 2 in 1941, as they were attacked by Germany and therefore joined Allies in this fight.

Basically those countries involved in WW2 are understood after they joined Allies or Axis side.

 

Though USSR attacked Poland in 1939, they haven't been allies to Germany (as you mentioned Ribentrop-Molotov pact was basically NAP).

 

Poland was in the beginning of the war, but for example Czechoslovakia was sold by other countries even before. Therefore pilot and soldiers ran away and joined Soviet or British forces even before the official beginning of WW2. But official declaration of war was also in 1941...

[MojaEkscelencja]

18 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Though it is known, that some countries were fighting and invading other countries worldwide during that time, those are still undestood as particular wars.

Could you give some examples?

 

18 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

As it is in various publication mentioned and also in our video, USSR entered Global conflict known as World War 2 in 1941, as they were attacked by Germany and therefore joined Allies in this fight.

Of course, because it is propaganda used to falsify history.

The facts are these:

- the USSR and Germany signed a pact without which Germany would not have attacked Poland on September 1, 1939, 

- the USSR attacked Poland on September 17, 1939,

- the USSR attacked Finland on November 30, 1939,

- the USSR murdered Polish prisoners of war in April 1940 (prisoners of war without war?).

Everything before 1941!

 

During the Winter War England was considering supporting Finland (which would have involved declaring war on the USSR) - if this had happened, would the USSR have entered the war in 1939/1940 or would peace-loving Stalin not have been involved in WWII until Barbarossa?

 

History is written by the victors, and it was more convenient for the victors to forget about the USSR's contribution to World War II between September 17, 1939 and June 22, 1941.

Which does not mean that we (80 years later) should mindlessly repeat these lies. 

[YabbaCoe]

Před 16 minutami MojaEkscelencja řekl/a:

Could you give some examples?

 

Of course, because it is propaganda used to falsify history.

The facts are these:

- the USSR and Germany signed a pact without which Germany would not have attacked Poland on September 1, 1939, '

- the USSR attacked Poland on September 17, 1939,

- the USSR attacked Finland on November 30, 1939,

- the USSR murdered Polish prisoners of war in April 1940.

Everything before 1941!

 

During the Winter War England was considering supporting Finland (which would have involved declaring war on the USSR) - if this had happened, would the USSR have entered the war in 1939/1940 or would peace-loving Stalin not have been involved in WWII until Barbarossa?

 

 

 

 

examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_1900–1944

 

So you have plenty wars and uprising, that happened during 1939 - 1944 and still were not part of World War 2. Also USSR connected, occupation of Baltic states.

Even though USSR invaded Poland, apart from Poland itself, nobody declared war on USSR and therefore they were not part of bigger conflict, not on side of Axis or Allies.

I am not saying, that what USSR did was right, but still it was not part of WW2. Basically with Barbarossa, USSR joined allied in Global conflict, on side of Allied contries, against not only Germany, but entire Axis.

So if Great Britan would decide to defend FInland, who knows who else would join the fight. Probably USSR would join Axis in fight against Allies.

But those are classic, what if...

 

[MojaEkscelencja]

24 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Even though USSR invaded Poland, apart from Poland itself, nobody declared war on USSR and therefore they were not part of bigger conflict, not on side of Axis or Allies.

The Polish government did not declare war on the USSR in September 1939.

Frankly speaking, even after 80 years, I cannot judge whether it was a good or bad decision. But it happened and there is no need to argue with it. 

 

Formally - Germany on September 1, 1939 and Soviets on September 17, 1939 attacked Poland without a declaration of war, so the actual state was exactly the same.

 

Once again, history is written by the victors, and the victors were more comfortable to forget about the role of Soviets in causing the global conflict.

If Germany had won the war, their historians might have written that "Hitler was forced into the war by the aggressive actions of the USSR in the Far East, where the evil Russians attacked the poor Japanese."

 

Nevertheless, without the USSR contribution in 1939 (the Molotov-Ribbentrob Pact and the invasion of Poland) World War II would probably never have begun on the scale and in the form we know.

 

[triumphgt6]

You are of course completely correct - Germany would not have invaded Poland without the non aggression pact. Russia was forced to join the Allies by the German attack, and many atrocities were carried out by many countries during the war. The treatment of the Poles was scandalous really but Britain was not in a position to wage war against the USSR and Germany at the same time as she was fighting essentially alone until 1941 although with the assistance of the Empire and associated nations. War time propaganda depicted Stalin as Uncle Joe when he was certainly a dictator who probably killed more of his own people than Hitler. The Allies could have continued the war and driven the Soviets out but it would have been a terrible war and much of it would have been on German and Polish soil and quite possibly involving nuclear bombs. History is written by the victors and no-one should forget the Brave Polish people who fought two dictators. I doubt they would ever have fought with the Germans though even if the Polish Government had signed an armistice and given up Danzig.

On the video, I thought it well done and informative - maybe a teaser for the Allies versus Axis battles. I am still not sure about the Tier 8 scenarios - this excludes all British battleships of WW2 - a Tier 7/8 mix would be preferable with an asymmetric number of ships to balance the Tiers.

[Zemeritt]

5 hours ago, MojaEkscelencja said:

If Poland had accepted Hitler's demands German invasion of Western Europe could have taken place in 1939.

 

Could have, just that the little mustache man dreamed about "Lebensraum" for german people on soviet territory.

Poland would've become a puppet in order to prepare for the invasion of the soviet union.

Because, iIrc, Hitler didn't really care about France or Britain that much.

Beating down France would be a prestige goal, as France was the old enemy for most germans, but he had actually no intentions to go to war with Britain.

And if France or Britain would've gone to war for the Soviet Union back then? I'm not sure about that.

 

[YabbaCoe]

Před 43 minutami triumphgt6 řekl/a:

You are of course completely correct - Germany would not have invaded Poland without the non aggression pact. Russia was forced to join the Allies by the German attack, and many atrocities were carried out by many countries during the war. The treatment of the Poles was scandalous really but Britain was not in a position to wage war against the USSR and Germany at the same time as she was fighting essentially alone until 1941 although with the assistance of the Empire and associated nations. War time propaganda depicted Stalin as Uncle Joe when he was certainly a dictator who probably killed more of his own people than Hitler. The Allies could have continued the war and driven the Soviets out but it would have been a terrible war and much of it would have been on German and Polish soil and quite possibly involving nuclear bombs. History is written by the victors and no-one should forget the Brave Polish people who fought two dictators. I doubt they would ever have fought with the Germans though even if the Polish Government had signed an armistice and given up Danzig.

On the video, I thought it well done and informative - maybe a teaser for the Allies versus Axis battles. I am still not sure about the Tier 8 scenarios - this excludes all British battleships of WW2 - a Tier 7/8 mix would be preferable with an asymmetric number of ships to balance the Tiers.

Yeah, it can be measured as something like suplementary teaser for Axis vs. Allies upcoming battles. There still can be changes, that it can happen on several tiers, but first it will be important to see, if those "historical" battles are doable on one tier and only after we can think about involving other tiers to make something like Asymmetric battle.

[Peffers]

I am interested in the throw away comment about Soviets losing ships when they defended the arctic convoys.  I love to know the details.  Ahem.

[Ymustihaveaname]

Why cut the RN in 1/2 all by itself, do other nations boilers not need cleaning?

 

And why no mention of the 3rd largest navy in 1945, the RCN not getting any attention?

 

The art is amazing as usual but why not actually compare like with like ships wise?

[YabbaCoe]

Před 31 minutami Ymustihaveaname řekl/a:

Why cut the RN in 1/2 all by itself, do other nations boilers not need cleaning?

 

And why no mention of the 3rd largest navy in 1945, the RCN not getting any attention?

 

The art is amazing as usual but why not actually compare like with like ships wise?

Do you have any source of the statement, that Canadian Navy had 3rd largest navy in 1945, basically during WW2?

 

What do you mean with that comparison? To take just surface ships in consideration?

[triumphgt6]

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/ww2/

 

The RCN was at the end of the war the 3rd largest Allied Navy - and as the axis no longer had a navy this would make it the 3rd largest navy. Over 1000 ships in total.