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Littlewhitemouse on the destroyer skills

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Interesting breakdown. Although I have my questions on some of the ratings.

 

At tier 1 I tend to take the Liquidator skill for a lot of DDs. Better flooding chance is rather valuable, especially on the Pan-EU botes where it’s easy to land a lot of torps.

 

At tier 3 I’m not certain I’d rate Survivability expert overpowered. Got a feeling that when I’m lit up, all those BBs with deadeye start targeting me a lot more often than before the rework, and a lot of cruisers use skills for a DPM-boost. When you’re getting blapped for half your health by Conquerers and Thunderers at 15+ k range a few thousand HP extra from SE doesn’t make much of a difference in my experience. But keen to hear other peoples assessment on this.

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I would never take priority target on any DD, except perhaps gunboats without smoke. When I am spotted in a DD I assume everyone is shooting at me, I don't need to know the subtle difference of 6 or 8 reds shooting at me :cap_cool:

 

Edit: otherwise I largely agree with the proposed builds, esp for the first 10 points.

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Highly.. mathematical in places.. but the one thing that stands out is what I kind of already noticed, are the percentage base skills that in LWM's words tend to give 'more benefit to those that need it less'.

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1 hour ago, Bushpanther said:

Interesting breakdown. Although I have my questions on some of the ratings.

 

At tier 1 I tend to take the Liquidator skill for a lot of DDs. Better flooding chance is rather valuable, especially on the Pan-EU botes where it’s easy to land a lot of torps.

 

At tier 3 I’m not certain I’d rate Survivability expert overpowered. Got a feeling that when I’m lit up, all those BBs with deadeye start targeting me a lot more often than before the rework, and a lot of cruisers use skills for a DPM-boost. When you’re getting blapped for half your health by Conquerers and Thunderers at 15+ k range a few thousand HP extra from SE doesn’t make much of a difference in my experience. But keen to hear other peoples assessment on this.

Here is the thing with survivability expert:

 

1. It allows a lot of DDs to take a torp and live. 

2. It boosts your ar, as at the same percentage of hp you have more total hp, which can be the difference between death and survival in a lot of gun fighting situations.

3. Its effect is the most drastic on dds since 3k hp at t10 are between 1/5 to 1/6 more hp. 

 

In total it increases your margin for error by a lot. Personally I lose faith in dds not running it immediately. It is just that good. 

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11 minutos antes, dCK_Ad_Hominem dijo:

In total it increases your margin for error by a lot

not by a lot, only a little. 3500/3200 is not so much for DDs with bad concealment, mediocre AA and that turn worst that a BB like hayate, kita or harugumo.

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I just started to read LWM´s summary and already the very first thing I read is like "yep, that´s what I felt too"

Just shows that they really don´t play DDs.

"But we have to give dumb little boats something too"

"oh well, give them what we dumped from other classes"

 

And this is a sad detail I didn´t know about till right now:

uhh.thumb.jpg.49b9eea50b8968bf8adcbb58c5f6f83a.jpg

Well, back to port and dump Dazzle from my builds.

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38 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

Well, back to port and dump Dazzle from my builds.

 

Dazzle would have been something to look into if either:

- it would be a 2 point skill

- if wouldnt have the stupid 15 sec limitation.

and yea, it absolutly needs to work against CV armament. but we cant have that aye...

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4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Dazzle would have been something to look into if either:

- it would be a 2 point skill

- if wouldnt have the stupid 15 sec limitation.

and yea, it absolutly needs to work against CV armament. but we cant have that aye...

 

And if you could get in on BB's too... :Smile_hiding:

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48 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

Well, back to port and dump Dazzle from my builds.

I'd more or less come to the same conclusion before I looked at LWM's piece; after testing, the number of builds where I felt I was getting value (for 4 points) from Dazzle had been steadily dropping, to the point where I'm not certain I have it anything any more.

 

Still, I'd better double-check...

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I don't really agree with the new BFT still being a top pick for gunboats as the amount of reload you gain is so small that you can barely make use of it, for example it gives like 0.1s reload on a Daring for 3 points, or 0.2-0.3s on a Shimakaze I think... Can I click quick enough to make use of it?

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8 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

I don't really agree with the new BFT still being a top pick for gunboats as the amount of reload you gain is so small that you can barely make use of it, for example it gives like 0.1s reload on a Daring for 3 points, or 0.2-0.3s on a Shimakaze I think... Can I click quick enough to make use of it?

If you have a gun fight with another DD then over 10 salvo’s it is well worth the it as far as I can see.

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1 minute ago, Cyclops_ said:

If you have a gun fight with another DD then over 10 salvo’s it is well worth the it as far as I can see.

You need to be able to click 0.1s faster than normal to make use of it though...

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2 minutes ago, Cyclops_ said:

If you have a gun fight with another DD then over 10 salvo’s it is well worth the it as far as I can see.

I run SI and RPF on Daring/Småland still, skipping the new BFT.
The reason being that while its somewhat helpful to have 5% more dpm over an engagement, it gets dwarfed by the extra damage you can tank through an extra heal, or through the value of having your guns on target the moment it gets detected.

5% dpm is just ridiculously expensive for 3 points as it currently stands.

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I took a look, I don't agree on some of the evaluations. Fearless Brawler on a ship that is shooting in the open and already has bad concealment is a nice bonus on top of the 5% of new BFT and 5% of AP shells.

 

I have tried it on Khabarovsk, you can make BBs hurt on bow and stern with that quite a lot. Many cruisers as well. Yes Khaba is a niche ship I know ...

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1 hour ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

I don't really agree with the new BFT still being a top pick for gunboats as the amount of reload you gain is so small that you can barely make use of it, for example it gives like 0.1s reload on a Daring for 3 points, or 0.2-0.3s on a Shimakaze I think... Can I click quick enough to make use of it?

 

We had exactly this discussion in our Discord...

 

59 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

5% dpm is just ridiculously expensive for 3 points as it currently stands.

 

...and came to the same conclusion.

 

I mean you can still skill it on the real open water gunboats, if you find nothing better. But overall, the real advantage of such rather small reload buffs comes from getting a salvo out on a target, that would otherwise be behind an island or had completed the turn. And in that sense, it pretty much only matters for BBs and there we are talking about a several second buff already... So WG kinda dropped the ball on this DD skill.

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29 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

We had exactly this discussion in our Discord...

 

 

...and came to the same conclusion.

 

I mean you can still skill it on the real open water gunboats, if you find nothing better. But overall, the real advantage of such rather small reload buffs comes from getting a salvo out on a target, that would otherwise be behind an island or had completed the turn. And in that sense, it pretty much only matters for BBs and there we are talking about a several second buff already... So WG kinda dropped the ball on this DD skill.

Worse still, some of the DDs already have such a ridiculously fast base firing speed, so that with any lag and (assuming rapid clicking for a shot), you already have a high risk of not firing exactly on cooldown.
Not hitting the shot exactly on cooldown costs you lots of true DPM over time, and any further reduction in reload only exacerbates this.
True for Småland in particular, where 1,7s base reload means that missing constistently 0,2 secs after each reload is already like 15% dpm loss, which is not outside the realm of possibility considering lag and not clicking exactly on point.
Contrast that to Shima, where about 6s base reload makes it a lot easier to actually get any use out of reload reducing skills (not that you would wanna gun spec Shima usually, but you catch my drift).


Hence any reduction below that base reload time (for super rapid firing DDs) carries a very real possibility of giving strong diminishing returns on investment.
And 5% is already pretty crap even when not considering any diminishing returns due to lag/missing the reload.

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23 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

We had exactly this discussion in our Discord...

 

 

...and came to the same conclusion.

 

I mean you can still skill it on the real open water gunboats, if you find nothing better. But overall, the real advantage of such rather small reload buffs comes from getting a salvo out on a target, that would otherwise be behind an island or had completed the turn. And in that sense, it pretty much only matters for BBs and there we are talking about a several second buff already... So WG kinda dropped the ball on this DD skill.

And I don't agree with this assessment since it largely ignores cumulative effects. Yes, per salvo the buff is small, but a smoked up harugumo in sequential fire will get more use out of it the longer the guns can keep blazing. 

 

It can be useful under this presumption, albeit very specific in terms of ship. 

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5 minutes ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

And I don't agree with this assessment since it largely ignores cumulative effects. Yes, per salvo the buff is small, but a smoked up harugumo in sequential fire will get more use out of it the longer the guns can keep blazing. 

 

It can be useful under this presumption, albeit very specific in terms of ship. 

Its your free choice, just trying to show the whole picture. The cumulative effect is somewhat theoretical. What is 100% is, that in almost all situations, you will not reach a 5%  net dpm increase with any DD. First, there is what @Hirohito and @Chaos_Umbra mentioned.But there is also the thing of switching targets, which happens quite often as a DD. It will pull your dpm to zero for a while. I notice this when playing french DDs, you pull a reload boost, have to switch target because the enemy DD manages to go dark and all your nice DPM from the reload boost turns into thin air.

The bottomline is, that for 3 points, its just nor worth it. Its like SE would give 25 health per tier. We could also say "yea its still 250 health on T10, there might be that one game, where you survive with 1 to 249 health, and SE made the difference, here is a screen, it actually happened" yet we all would agree, the benefit is too little, right?

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1 hour ago, Cyclops_ said:

If you have a gun fight with another DD then over 10 salvo’s it is well worth the it as far as I can see.

 

If you're in a gunfight with a DD and it matters then you've :etc_swear:ed up somewhere.

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5 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Its your free choice, just trying to show the whole picture. The cumulative effect is somewhat theoretical. What is 100% is, that in almost all situations, you will not reach a 5%  net dpm increase with any DD.

Definitely.
Taking the Harugumo as an example.: Let's say the Harugumo actually has that rare game where he could almost fire non stop in most situations, and let's ignore additional fire damage and any torp/floodings.
Say the Harugumo managed to spam so much HE that raw pen damage alone hit 200k (an exceptionally high number).
Even ignoring any missing shots due to lag, that only 10k extra damage from that skill at the end of the day.

Hardly anything that's gonna tilt the game either way.
And this is an absolute best/ideal case scenario we're talking about here.

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2 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

I took a look, I don't agree on some of the evaluations. Fearless Brawler on a ship that is shooting in the open and already has bad concealment is a nice bonus on top of the 5% of new BFT and 5% of AP shells.

 

I have tried it on Khabarovsk, you can make BBs hurt on bow and stern with that quite a lot. Many cruisers as well. Yes Khaba is a niche ship I know ...

That is an awful amount of points to spend, 9 commander points I count for 20% AP DPM buff and 15% HE DPM buff only while spotted, so if you hijack and enemy smokescreen or find a good island to make use of it drops down to 10% and 5% respectively with a concealment nerf thrown in. You can get a 15% reload buff from just the last module slot and that only has the downside of a turret traverse buff.

 

I would even question the Fearless Brawler skill on the Kleber cause without the skill it is able to stealth torp that can be useful when stalling a flank and you want to stay undetected, with the skill you no longer can or the window that you can do it if the enemy is full speed towards you is reduced (especially as the torps are fast to start with). Also affects your ability to fight other DDs as you now have a larger closing distance to cover.

 

 

Another thing I noticed with the LittleWhiteMouse article is that the Turret traverse skill was not covered in detail as the description of the skill is incorrect (and I did point this out to WG on the PTS test of this patch), what it says is that the traverse speed is buffed by 15% when in fact it seems that the 180deg traverse time is reduced by 15% instead. As I will show below (I know these are not DDs but they are just some test builds that I had screenshots of where the skill was selected but not spent so the effects of the skill showed on the ship statistics). Note these are not the builds I went for in the end was just trying stuff out to see the effects!

 

20201219230806_1.thumb.jpg.194f05e7aca7a005e88d23800639fd49.jpg

 

20201220002523_1.thumb.jpg.0f7a687690241db0ff22df7189134e67.jpg

 

As you can see Zao with the worse turret traverse gets a 4.7s buff, while the Huanghe with a faster turret traverse only gets a 3.3s buff.

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Not sure I agree completely with LWM on Dazzle. Was hoping for some actual tests, but we only got theory.

The impact of the skill is definitely felt in DD vs DD duels where shells literally go all over the place and its sometimes tricky to tell if you aim was on point.

Would like to test it in training room (shell hit % with and without Dazzle). I'm pretty sure it will turn out significant. Only question is if the net benefit is more than 5% dpm from BFT.

3 hours ago, Hirohito said:

I run SI and RPF on Daring/Småland still, skipping the new BFT.
The reason being that while its somewhat helpful to have 5% more dpm over an engagement, it gets dwarfed by the extra damage you can tank through an extra heal, or through the value of having your guns on target the moment it gets detected.

5% dpm is just ridiculously expensive for 3 points as it currently stands.

RPF is the only real alternative to BFT on Småland. You're supposed to run SE, SI, AR and CE which leaves 5 points for free distribution afaik?

Daring might get use out of Dazzle with quick reloading smokes.

1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

Its your free choice, just trying to show the whole picture. The cumulative effect is somewhat theoretical. What is 100% is, that in almost all situations, you will not reach a 5%  net dpm increase with any DD. First, there is what @Hirohito and @Chaos_Umbra mentioned.But there is also the thing of switching targets, which happens quite often as a DD. It will pull your dpm to zero for a while. I notice this when playing french DDs, you pull a reload boost, have to switch target because the enemy DD manages to go dark and all your nice DPM from the reload boost turns into thin air.

The bottomline is, that for 3 points, its just nor worth it. Its like SE would give 25 health per tier. We could also say "yea its still 250 health on T10, there might be that one game, where you survive with 1 to 249 health, and SE made the difference, here is a screen, it actually happened" yet we all would agree, the benefit is too little, right?

It's not just theoretical. It's a small but always on buff that comes with no downsides. You might argue the benefit of RPF on a radar DD is similarly theoretical in most situations.

What else to take? What did you come up with?

Fearless brawler with 5% stealth hit is no-go for most DDs since concealment is the single most powerful stat. Some exceptions like french and khaba.

Dazzle? the only real alternative to BFT and RPF for gunboat builds. Isnt always on and its difficult to tell how effective it is. 

Other tier 4 skills are useless for gunboats unless you want AFT for some reason (longer main gun range means it is harder to get undetected after a fight).

 

In the end i pick BFT because it leaves me 2 points for a tier 2 skill of which most are useful. 

The effectiveness of a tier 2 skill and BFT is greater than one tier 4 skill and a useless tier 1 skill in my book

Cap rework is a DD molester nerf.

1 hour ago, Capra76 said:

If you're in a gunfight with a DD and it matters then you've :etc_swear:ed up somewhere.

From playing 40ish Småland games in ranked i can tell you my experience is

- Småland vs Småland is quite common, having extra 5% makes the difference, just like RPF with guns on target immediately does.

- Lacking BFT is also felt vs Hallands and Gearings running full dpm build, especially now with Dazzle builds messing up dispersion and more volleys are needed to secure a kill.

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28 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Another thing I noticed with the LittleWhiteMouse article is that the Turret traverse skill was not covered in detail as the description of the skill is incorrect (and I did point this out to WG on the PTS test of this patch), what it says is that the traverse speed is buffed by 15% when in fact it seems that the 180deg traverse time is reduced by 15% instead.

 

As you can see Zao with the worse turret traverse gets a 4.7s buff, while the Huanghe with a faster turret traverse only gets a 3.3s buff.

 

Distance / speed =  time

so if the regular setup will be 1/1 = 1, lets increase speed by .15 and see.

 

1/1.15 = 0.869565

This means a 15% increase in speed will give a 13.04% decrease in time.

 

In your examples the Zao goes from 36 sec to 31.3 sec which is 0.869444.. of original time (or 13.05% decrease in time)

and the Huanghe goes from 25.7 to 22.4 which is 0.871595 (or 12.84% decrease in time)

 

the difference in the final reduction is 0.002151 or a 0.2151%-point difference, probably due to rounding. 

Looks exactly as it should be expected.

 

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32 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

- Småland vs Småland is quite common, having extra 5% makes the difference, just like RPF with guns on target immediately does.

Does it make the difference though?
Those 5% are, when factoring in lag and not having the gun fire click exactly on point after the reload comes off cooldown, most likely quite a bit less even than the miniscule increase of 5%.
I dunno, but I hardly if ever feel that I get much out of the faster reload, especially not on something that fires as fast as the Småland.
Usually what decides the factor in a Småland vs another DD fight is by far who's the better player, especially regarding consistent aim and ability to juke shots.
Personally I just don't have those fights where the duel is decided by a split second where who lives and dies based on who got off the last salvo, can't even remember the last time that happened to me.
Either I win comfortably or I happen to pick a terrible fight (a surprise Venezia pops up) and get wrecked.

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