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MementoMori_6030

Zao, what are you?

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I am kind of frustrated with my Zao. There are many upgrades and skills, and I cannot figure out which combination makes sense.

A full max range gunnery build seems like a waste for such a stealthy ship, and I am no fan of the sniping meta anyway.

A full torpedo build with a 130 sec reload is ruined by the aweful firing angles and large turning circle.

A full AA build is still so ineffective that it will only discourage bad CV players.

A CQB build looks suicidal due to the sloooooooow turret traverse, lack of agility and low HP.

A mixed build runs out of points too fast.

I am already considering Survivability Expert because at least this skill is not situational.

Any ideas?

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Zao's strength lies in accurate and high alpha HE salvoes. That is pretty much it. 

Torps are a secondary weapon mainly. Yes u can close in with stealth to torp but all that time being in stealth means u are not firing your guns.

3 most important things in this game is the ability to:

- Deal damage and DPM

- Health and ability to tank

- Map control and map position to deal damage and keep your health and make life difficult for enemy.

 

Zao doesn't have health or tankiness but it does have HE spam. 

Pick a spot in the furthest part of the flank and start wearing enemy down. Break the enemy flank and gain map control. Don't waste time capping.

Crush the flank. Crush the flank. Crush the flank. Keep your 12 gun barrels running red on the enemy flank. Then the rest will fall when they start to lose map control. 

This is what Zao can do consistently well.

You can torp yolo in Zao but it is not the best in it. 

Extra HP perk is not bad for Zao if u can fit it into your build.

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Build for CE and turret traverse module + perk. Help your DD to gain control and then try to blap enemy cruisers with AP. More risk&fun.

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15 minutes ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

The GUI considers IFHE to be ineffective. As I am not studying armor schemes and penetration values... is the GUI correct?

I see you have the "I don't want to learn anything ever" attitude that most of the playerbase has. This is the exact reason why the vast majority players are really bad in this game. 

Yes you should be studying armor schemes and penetrations. Not all day but when you find something you don't understand you study and figure it out. Vast majority of players play thousands of games without understand even basics of this game and remain in the bottom of the scoreboard. Those players who put a few minutes into figuring out stuff beat you down every time and are far more advanced players.

 

Use https://wowsft.com/ to figure out what IFHE does to your HE armor penetration.

Study and learn or be a potato forever.

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1 hour ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

The GUI considers IFHE to be ineffective. As I am not studying armor schemes and penetration values... is the GUI correct?

Heavy cruisers generally don't take IFHE

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1 hour ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

The GUI considers IFHE to be ineffective. As I am not studying armor schemes and penetration values... is the GUI correct?

 

Here's the thing, if you don't care about learning specific/unique armor schemes, what you can do is just keep in mind just a couple of common armor values compared to common gun caliber.
For cruisers, you want to remember: 25mm , 32mm and 38mm

Those are common cruiser and battleship plating (anything that's not armored belts around the waterline)

The general gist of it is: 

EDIT:Below T8 base 152mm HE can damage 25mm plating, but not 32mm plating, even with IFHE

EDIT:Above T8 base 152mm HE can damage 25mm plating, and 32mm plating with IFHE

203mm HE can damage 32mm plating, and if you take IFHE, you can damage 38mm plating. 

Bare in mind that there are exceptions, such as German cruisers having more base HE penetration, and battleships with much more plating.
 

 

The real question for the Zao in regards to IFHE become: "Do I want to sacrifice a LOT of firechance in order to penetrate 38mm plating?"
And the answer for most people should be "no"
38mm plating is found almost exclusively on USN battleships.
Other battleships have either only 32mm plating, or too much for 203mm IFHE to penetrate.

 

In this case, the GUI is entirely correct. The cons of IFHE was outweighs the pros.

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6 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

152mm HE can damage 25mm plating, but not 32mm plating, even with IFHE

 

T8+ 152mm guns can pen 32mm with IFHE, Mogamis 155 can even pen 38mm

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1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

T8+ 152mm guns can pen 32mm with IFHE, Mogamis 155 can even pen 38mm

 

Christ, how does WG expect casual players to know these things, when a more experienced player that hasn't played in some 6 months can't even keep up with the changes ? 

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2 hours ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

I am kind of frustrated with my Zao. There are many upgrades and skills, and I cannot figure out which combination makes sense.

A full max range gunnery build seems like a waste for such a stealthy ship, and I am no fan of the sniping meta anyway.

A full torpedo build with a 130 sec reload is ruined by the aweful firing angles and large turning circle.

A full AA build is still so ineffective that it will only discourage bad CV players.

A CQB build looks suicidal due to the sloooooooow turret traverse, lack of agility and low HP.

A mixed build runs out of points too fast.

I am already considering Survivability Expert because at least this skill is not situational.

Any ideas?

Agree I have tried just about everything

LM is rubbish, Zao doesnt need better dispersion (LM was workable before nerf)

Have thought about 3500 extra HP it is 3500 in the right direction

Super long range guns, spotting aircraft mod 1 for 130 sec action time

Have thought of giving up concealment altogether coz every time u shoot u will be every ships target of choice anyway

(this build lands u at 12.2 conceal)

Something like this may keep u alive long enough to actually do some damage

 shot-21_01.31_11_25.55-0753.thumb.jpg.dd6d66338710162bf9d9c4a2a6b2a5c1.jpgshot-21_01.31_11_47.12-0227.thumb.jpg.345fa5327336f1acb4971613c06dcc8c.jpg

 

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Vor 39 Minuten, Ronchabale sagte:

Agree I have tried just about everything

LM is rubbish, Zao doesnt need better dispersion (LM was workable before nerf)

Have thought about 3500 extra HP it is 3500 in the right direction

Super long range guns, spotting aircraft mod 1 for 130 sec action time

Have thought of giving up concealment altogether coz every time u shoot u will be every ships target of choice anyway

(this build lands u at 12.2 conceal)

Something like this may keep u alive long enough to actually do some damage

I have tried to be a Spotting Cruiser with 7 Planes, 65 secs flight time and 108 secs reload, but this feels cheesy and boring. So I went with a compromise build (I have "only" a level 19 captain):

shot-21_01.31_12_35.18-0146.thumb.png.c14ca0f847ee4c78201e3f0c08d71ce3.png

Went not too bad during the first trial:

shot-21_01.31_12_17.59-0475.thumb.jpg.5558a4c1c56355d4f5cf603f25cafd85.jpgshot-21_01.31_12_18.02-0871.thumb.jpg.55b49bbf8957f26a9a278b331b90ccb6.jpg

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3 hours ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

lack of agility

Well no...it's quite agile for a cruiser and definitely small enough to dodge most return fire at longer ranges.

 

This is how I currently have it set up.

image.png.cd31e58e8c27f0cd931a53642b1dc6b7.png

image.png.46cad47b107c5b95e506a89356fa0220.png

 

Stealth for when I want to disengage or get closer, while keeping the range when I want to dodge all the incoming fire while dealing massive amounts of damage.

 

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14 hours ago, Exocet6951 said:

 

Christ, how does WG expect casual players to know these things, when a more experienced player that hasn't played in some 6 months can't even keep up with the changes ? 

Well, if something is too complex for someone, then nobody can expect, that those will learn the complexity.

But what WG did: If you have light cruiser guns, the skill is shown as recommended, if you have heavy cruiser guns, then this skill is not recommended and crossed out.

That works even with Mogamis 155mm vs 200 mm

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Zao was already in a bad position before the cpt rework. Now, she is powercrept extremely hard. Radar meta, cv rework and cpt rework was the final nail in the coffin.

Last I played, got citadeled by a Petro 12km away angled aft towards him. Shells penetrated through my 30mm deck armor.

She has absolutely no place in ranked or clan battles. She doesnt bring any utility to the team either. If you want to play as an he spammer, everything else is superior(Henri, Goliath, Hinden, hell even Ibuki )

Ofc, some cc or unicum player may show a kraken performance in a Zao and claim that she is still a fine ship. Blah blah.. Yeah I also take her out time to time in randoms and decimate an entire line of pushing patotoes with torpedoes if im lucky.

All in all .. Zao used to be my first t10 and favourite ship for quite some time but shes powercrept hard.

 

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1 hour ago, Elidips said:

Ibuki

but Ibuki is even worse, with terrible armor and slower shells? :D

 

 

I think Zao is actually a fine and well balanced ship, the issue are the other ships, that are too "op"

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11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

but Ibuki is even worse, with terrible armor and slower shells? :D

 

 

I think Zao is actually a fine and well balanced ship, the issue are the other ships, that are too "op"

He just wants to hate on it because he can't play it so he's making stuff up. "Radar meta"...the biggest bane of cruisers as we all know.

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4 minutes ago, SV_Kompresor said:

He just wants to hate on it because he can't play it so he's making stuff up. "Radar meta"...the biggest bane of cruisers as we all know.

Well, Radar is a reason to not take Zao, because she lacks in radar. Radar is a pretty important tool

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20 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, Radar is a reason to not take Zao, because she lacks in radar. Radar is a pretty important tool

Lack of radar isn't really the reason why you don't pick zao in CBs. And outside of CBs the lack of radar can't even be an argument.

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1 hour ago, SV_Kompresor said:

Lack of radar isn't really the reason why you don't pick zao in CBs. And outside of CBs the lack of radar can't even be an argument.

Give her a radar, I'm pretty sure you will see her way more often in CBs ^^

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9 hours ago, Elidips said:

Last I played, got citadeled by a Petro 12km away angled aft towards him. Shells penetrated through my 30mm deck armor. 

 

More likely just through the stern, because the arcs are way too flat to ever punch through the deck armor. However, going through the stern is usually not a problem, as its very round or straightup flat (like on RN ships)

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11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I think Zao is actually a fine and well balanced ship, the issue are the other ships, that are too "op"

 

How a ship may be evaluated without relating it to other ships? Against what reference exactly is Zao balanced?

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On 1/31/2021 at 5:18 AM, Pikkozoikum said:

Heavy cruisers generally don't take IFHE

But Notser said to take IFHE on Des Moines... *confused potato noises*

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10 minutes ago, HMCS_Halifax said:

But Notser said to take IFHE on Des Moines... *confused potato noises*

 

I always wondered how wrong he really was. The issue looking from the EU server is, that on NA they tend to play US ships more than we do over here. US BBs actually have 38mm armor, something IFHE DM can pen but otherwise cant. So if you see a lot of US BBs, it might have made sense to use IFHE?

Its like IFHE Henri to farm Stalingrads in CBs back in the days.

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Just now, DFens_666 said:

 

I always wondered how wrong he really was. The issue looking from the EU server is, that on NA they tend to play US ships more than we do over here. US BBs actually have 38mm armor, something IFHE DM can pen but otherwise cant. So if you see a lot of US BBs, it might have made sense to use IFHE?

Its like IFHE Henri to farm Stalingrads in CBs back in the days.

As someone who has nearly 800 games in the DM, I firmly believe it does not need IFHE to stand out.

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