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Lemasive

Why stats in random games doesn't matter as much as you want

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Since I've played both WoT, WoWs and Arena I'm quite familiar with the people that are obsessed with stats in random games. I'm going to argue why WR/PR/DMG,  in random games does not = skill.

In fact the only measurement that we can observe is how consistent you are as a player, not how good you actually are.  
 

  • Reason 1 - Your mentality going into every game differs from the avg player, they are not there to farm damage or stats. Most of them play because they want to have fun, or because they are grinding a ship. Winning is not prio 1 on their list, and nor is performing well in every single match. 
  • Reason 2 - Your knowledge about the ships, maps and angles give you a huge advantage over the avg player, they don't know much about it and they don't really care to know.
  • Reason 3 - Your ships are decked out with the best captains, the best skills and signals that enhance the ship vs others who grind without having the best possible setup
  • Reason 4 - You have copied your play style from videos, posts and other players, and you're consistent with doing what others have proved works. Most people don't even consider this when they play a game.
  • Reason 5 - You're using mods that most players are not aware of, and don't consider using before playing the game. This gives you quite the advantage. 

 

So as you can see, it's not really about being skillful, but how much you apply yourself against random players that are just there to have fun. It's not a equal playing field, and honestly all you're doing is farming people that don't know better and feel good about it.
While it could be a slight indicator of some skill, it's not a given that you're actually a good and skilled player. I've had people with 70+ WR in WoT that have not been able to perform at all in Clan Battles because they can't adapt and use the knowledge and tools that they have. 
While some might argue that the ranked in this game might be a better indicator, we all know most people are there to farm the rewards and doesn't really care as much as you do.  

 

So to summarize, you're seal-clubbing randoms with the motivation that this gives you status and you're seen as a skilled player. The only thing we can see is that you're consistent against random players, and without a proper elo system random stats mean almost nothing at all. 

 

Comic Con Kid Gets Owned By Bryan Cranston! *mic drop* | NWB Trending 

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1 minute ago, ForlornSailor said:

Implying that winning isnt fun / losing is fun. Thats why its always a 40%er moaning and insulting starting second 1. Self-defeating argument.

 

 

knowledge is literally a part of skill. You just described, why good players with knowledge are skillful. You might want to rethink this point.

image.png.973c55ff1860013ad23952f02eac5a90.png

 

I played Amagi this week in Ranked. Complete Stock. 10 point captain in retraining. Havent lost a game in her. If you think, having an extra 4000 health on a battleship seperates a super unicum from a 40% trash player - then I suggest you skill Survivability expert and instantly become a super unicum. A wait - WG took that from you, right? Dang it. Prolly the reason why you complain about "B-hull-cheaters"?

 

 

Copying a playstyle doesnt make you a good player and it isnt skill. But im not surprised you think it works like that. It was proven by flamu, when he made a commentry about playing a battleship in a central position [because in his exaple games, that was, what the situation requered]. The days and weeks after that, you saw a lot of BBs beeing central, cleary copying flamu. They died, lost & stopped doing that. Why? Because you cant copy skill. Skill is to analyse each game, the situation, the line up, the flow of the game. And then make decisisions and act acordingly. Again, im not surprised, you can not draw this conclusion. You lack - skill.

 

 

Literally playing absolute vanilla game. Way too lazy to install mods.

 

Have anything more to say? Well I do: if you would use your time and energy to work on understanding the game instead of beeing angry and comming up with conspiracy-like theories, why everyone around you is so much better and sinks you all the time - you might actually enter the path of "git gud". btw:: people like me enjoy real challenges more then randoms anyway. But randoms are a needed "chore" to get where you want to be. Grind ships, campaigns etc. So when we go competetive, this happens:

 

image.thumb.png.0d75cb085925b4e08077cc2cb777d21b.png

 

PS: I think you dropped something there. And it wasnt your mic.

 Lets see here

 

Anecdotes, ad homs and sealclubbing in "clan brawls". 

 

The only useful thing you wrote was this

 

image.thumb.png.78245f79cce59afa71dbb21e43cf9ee8.png

 

And that shows that you confuse being a skilled player, with having a skill. 

 

 

So to summarize, your argument was ineffective and lacked insight into what makes a good player. Not to mention you missed the title that says random games stats, and answered something else. Thanks for participating, shame you didn't get it right. 

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6 minutes ago, Lemasive said:

So to summarize, your argument was ineffective and lacked insight into what makes a good player. Not to mention you missed the title that says random games stats, and answered something else. Thanks for participating, shame you didn't get it right. 

 

So one can be a skilled player in clan wars but at the same time not in randoms. Sure buddy. And the next thing you are going to tell us, is, that infact you are the skilled player. You are infact the least guy to judge arguments here, because its quite obvious, you are driven by hate. Hate towards people, that are better than you. Just wondering: whats your problem? shouldnt you be having a massive amount of phun? According to your own logic? Yet you wrote a long topic about all the people, that are torturing you in randoms. How come, this logic makes no sense at all?

 

But yea, once again: absolutly no surprise you didnt understood a word I was telling you.

 

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7 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

So one can be a skilled player in clan wars but at the same time not in randoms. Sure buddy. And the next thing you are going to tell us, is, that infact you are the skilled player. You are infact the least guy to judge arguments here, because its quite obvious, you are driven by hate. Hate towards people, that are better than you. Just wondering: whats your problem? shouldnt you be having a massive amount of phun? According to your own logic? Yet you wrote a long topic about all the people, that are torturing you in randoms. How come, this logic makes no sense at all?

 

But yea, once again: absolutly no surprise you didnt understood a word I was telling you.

 

At this point, it's obvious that you have taken personal offence, thus going into the poor judgment of trying to assume my motivation and mental state. This conjecture really gives it away, and based on flawed subjective empiricism you have shown us what is truly important to you in this game. It's all about getting that status while sealclubbing absolute noobs or people who don't care. We can also see that you assume you're better than others based on quite arbitrary parameters, and it's clear why I made this post. 

 

Wherever I go, I can't help but put down smug people that have nothing to show for it. It's strange though, that since you're sooooo good you have these stats in ranked. 

image.thumb.png.b3a16f584f98d5a4b77c7e9f65c8e33c.png

 

 

I guess you have to rely on dat prem Massa to win you games eh? 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Lemasive said:

that since you're sooooo good you have these stats in ranked. 

Ye I had you on my team in those games.

 

btw: you mean THESE ranked stats.

 

image.thumb.png.9c903b3884a12cd87f1ea2a4e33377e3.png

 

But thats the problem with people like you. You love to dig for things, that arent there. Alter the reality to make it fit your narrative. Create fake news. And you talk about "getting personal?" While digging desperatly in my stats to find something, on which you can attack me? Did it make you feel good? superior? Quoting my worst stats, while at the same moment - you are incapable of even reaching them? Do you understand how you present yourself? Thats your kiev. And I dont need to nitpick, thats all you have played in kiev. The other 2 ships you quoted from me you dont have.

image.thumb.png.616a59915bfef2452b9acf37dad81b99.png

So how do you think, you want to make a point, quoting my worst ship, when you cant even reach that in ANY statistic?

 

12 minutes ago, Lemasive said:

We can also see that you assume you're better than others based on quite arbitrary parameters, and it's clear why I made this post. 

 

Im not assuming, I know. And I know from the way how and what you write, that this is a fact. As I showed with one example, you have no clue on how to read a game to notch it into a winning direction. You think, people watch flamu, copy, profit. Then why dont you do it? Oh, yes, because you dont care, you are having fun. Aaand we are back to the start of the circle: then why are you angry, friend?

 

Oh and just for the record: since you thought before, you can shut down argument by saying "ranked and clanwars are not randoms - im talking about randoms" - your entire point about quoting my ranked stats failed your own standards. But thats ofc to be expected from you at this point.

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@Lemasive

 

Excuse me but your reasoning is fallacious. I will not bother debunking one by one your arguments because they fall under the same flawed reasoning.

 

According to you "playing to win" does not contribute or is not a part of those combined elements that make up a player's skill. What is bizzare is that your claim concerns a game where Victory is the desired outcome.

I disagree. Not only "playing to win" is part of what we call "skill" but it is a major requirement if ever anyone wishes to acquire "skill" or achieve a high level of competence in any competitive endeavor.

You could argue that victory is not the required outcome in WoWs. I would ask you however, to tell me why the victorious team gets more rewards at the end of the battle? I would also ask why daily missions have "Victory" as a requirement?

The fact that some players do not wish to play well, or don't care, or, for whatever reason, they do not wish to perform takes nothing away from those players that try hard to learn the game and play to win.

 

A few pointers:

Reason 1: Playing to win is the mindset of a skilled player.

Reason 2: Knowing the particularities of the game you play is skill. See above @ForlornSailor post.

Reason 3: It requires skill to have a good captain or the second hull on your boat. How do you think they got the 19 point (oops 21) captain and the second hull? Magic? No. They also went through the phase of grinding it while maintaining a high WR. Why? Because they have skill.

Reason 4: Not wanting to learn (in our case not looking at what successful players are doing) is a way of never becoming skillful. No one started playing the game knowing what to do. We all learnt. The way to skill goes through a so called learning phase. 

Reason 5: Most players do not use mods. And mods in WoWs are mostly aesthetic, they add nothing to gameplay. Silly argument.

 

In conclusion:

 

In a game that Victory is the requirement if you manage to win you are good at it.

 

Sorry mate but your arguments are diddly dum.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lemasive said:

Reason 1 - Your mentality going into every game differs from the avg player, they are not there to farm damage or stats. Most of them play because they want to have fun, or because they are grinding a ship. Winning is not prio 1 on their list, and nor is performing well in every single match. 

Everybody knows, that there are a lot of reasons why people play this game, or any game in particular and as soon as you drop in phrases like "fun" we are heading into subjective territory and personal definition, making any further discussions quite useless, as everybody argues on a different basis. The problem is, that winning very often is a key component of other presented reasons such as grinding, which is massively accelerated by actually winning and/or performing well. In addition, there is a quite moral imbalance demanding more determined players to show consideration towards people with less determination for the game, while those barely show any understanding for said more determined people, not only by their own motivation, but also their actions.

 

Thats a lot of taking and only a little of giving, for a game which is built around the fact, that most benefits are locked behind a victory.

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6 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Ye I had you on my team in those games.

 

btw: you mean THESE ranked stats.

 

image.thumb.png.9c903b3884a12cd87f1ea2a4e33377e3.png

 

But thats the problem with people like you. You love to dig for things, that arent there. Alter the reality to make it fit your narrative. Create fake news. And you talk about "getting personal?" While digging desperatly in my stats to find something, on which you can attack me? Did it make you feel good? superior? Quoting my worst stats, while at the same moment - you are incapable of even reaching them? Do you understand how you present yourself? Thats your kiev. And I dont need to nitpick, thats all you have played in kiev. The other 2 ships you quoted from me you dont have.

image.thumb.png.616a59915bfef2452b9acf37dad81b99.png

So how do you think, you want to make a point, quoting my worst ship, when you cant even reach that in ANY statistic?

 

 

Im not assuming, I know. And I know from the way how and what you write, that this is a fact. As I showed with one example, you have no clue on how to read a game to notch it into a winning direction. You think, people watch flamu, copy, profit. Then why dont you do it? Oh, yes, because you dont care, you are having fun. Aaand we are back to the start of the circle: then why are you angry, friend?

 

Oh and just for the record: since you thought before, you can shut down argument by saying "ranked and clanwars are not randoms - im talking about randoms" - your entire point about quoting my ranked stats failed your own standards. But thats ofc to be expected from you at this point.

 

 

You don't know and that's the point, you have been easily played in this thread for everyone to see what you really think, and what you really are like. 

 

You're adding a lot of thing that have negative connotations to "strengthen" your argument, but anyone with the slightest skill in rhetoric knows that it's a sure sign of a weak argument. That does not mean it has to be, it's just a sign of it. 

 

 

I like the part where you brought up Flamu (I guess it's some dude you follow on youtube?), and then you argue as if I brought him or some specific event up. Did you know thats a strawman, another fallacy that most people who are not good at arguing or debating bring up all the time. 

 

 

Really, I'm not surprised that you got offended, but you're not really advancing the thread into a good discussion as you are only interested to defend yourself, and slander anyone who doesn't agree with you. I will refrain from answering you anymore, as I want a healthy good discussion about this and you clearly can't have one. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Saltface said:

@Lemasive

 

Excuse me but your reasoning is fallacious. I will not bother debunking one by one your arguments because they fall under the same flawed reasoning.

 

According to you "playing to win" does not contribute or is not a part of those combined elements that make up a player's skill. What is bizzare is that your claim concerns a game where Victory is the desired outcome.

I disagree. Not only "playing to win" is part of what we call "skill" but it is a major requirement if ever anyone wishes to acquire "skill" or achieve a high level of competence in any competitive endeavor.

You could argue that victory is not the required outcome in WoWs. I would ask you however, to tell me why the victorious team gets more rewards at the end of the battle? I would also ask why daily missions have "Victory" as a requirement?

The fact that some players do not wish to play well, or don't care, or, for whatever reason, they do not wish to perform takes nothing away from those players that try hard to learn the game and play to win.

 

A few pointers:

Reason 1: Playing to win is the mindset of a skilled player.

Reason 2: Knowing the particularities of the game you play is skill. See above @ForlornSailor post.

Reason 3: It requires skill to have a good captain or the second hull on your boat. How do you think they got the 19 point (oops 21) captain and the second hull? Magic? No. They also went through the phase of grinding it while maintaining a high WR. Why? Because they have skill.

Reason 4: Not wanting to learn (in our case not looking at what successful players are doing) is a way of never becoming skillful. No one started playing the game knowing what to do. We all learnt. The way to skill goes through a so called learning phase. 

Reason 5: Most players do not use mods. And mods in WoWs are mostly aesthetic, they add nothing to gameplay. Silly argument.

 

In conclusion:

 

In a game that Victory is the requirement if you manage to win you are good at it.

 

Sorry mate but your arguments are diddly dum.

 

 

 

 

 

Could you point out the specific fallacies? I'd love to see you take a crack on it, and I will reply to the rest after you have proven it's fallacious. 

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Just now, Lemasive said:

You don't know and that's the point, you have been easily played in this thread for everyone to see what you really think, and what you really are like.

You're adding a lot of thing that have negative connotations to "strengthen" your argument, but anyone with the slightest skill in rhetoric knows that it's a sure sign of a weak argument. That does not mean it has to be, it's just a sign of it.

[...]

Really, I'm not surprised that you got offended, but you're not really advancing the thread into a good discussion as you are only interested to defend yourself, and slander anyone who doesn't agree with you. I will refrain from answering you anymore, as I want a healthy good discussion about this and you clearly can't have one.

 

1489430753_catmac.thumb.jpg.55113d87173f6d022f65895599f04498.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

Everybody knows, that there are a lot of reasons why people play this game, or any game in particular and as soon as you drop in phrases like "fun" we are heading into subjective territory and personal definition, making any further discussions quite useless, as everybody argues on a different basis. The problem is, that winning very often is a key component of other presented reasons such as grinding, which is massively accelerated by actually winning and/or performing well. In addition, there is a quite moral imbalance demanding more determined players to show consideration towards people with less determination for the game, while those barely show any understanding for said more determined people, not only by their own motivation, but also their actions.

 

Thats a lot of taking and only a little of giving, for a game which is built around the fact, that most benefits are locked behind a victory.

 

 

Right, but when people write I play the game for fun it's usually not in the context of high end performance, tryharding. If that was not implicit, then I should have made it clearer. 

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Olympic champions are try harders seal clubbing the average Joe, who just make sport for fun.

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1 minute ago, Ocsimano18 said:

Olympic champions are try harders seal clubbing the average Joe, who just make sport for fun.

 

Yea and dont forget: the olympic champion actually does not have any skill!! HE JUST WATCHED SOME VIDEOS AND COPIED IT!!! ROARRRR !!! :Smile_teethhappy:

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Just now, Ocsimano18 said:

Olympic champions are try harders seal clubbing the average Joe, who just make sport for fun.

It's a good thing you wrote this, a lot of people will think as you. That this is a contest at the highest level, when it's in fact just public random games.

 

At least you tried, amarite? : )

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3 hours ago, Lemasive said:

So to summarize, you're seal-clubbing randoms with the motivation that this gives you status and you're seen as a skilled player.

Seal-clubbing is a term often thrown around.

 

You know that the player-base of Wows is somewhat older? Many play the ships they are interested in. The first book in German language I ever bothered to to read was about the Graf Spee. Her enemies in the Battle of Rio de la Plata were Exeter and two Leanders. In-game these ships are T5 and T6.

 

The first warship I ever set a foot on irl was the Belfast in London. Guess what, I bought her the second she entered the shop. I had no idea how strong the ship would turn out to be, I just wanted a pack of pixels called "Belfast". I still play these ships and you can call me names for that, but you can also tell by my stats that I am not really aiming for purple stats.

 

3 hours ago, Lemasive said:

Your mentality going into every game differs from the avg player, they are not there to farm damage or stats.

I see many damage-farmers. Average damage is purple, rating so-so, w/r bad. They don´t understand why they always get such bad teams. Usually I don´t mind 4phun-players, except that many time it´s them who run away, abandon a flank and then call "noob team". But don´t worry, in these cases I earn my chat-ban rightfully.

 

3 hours ago, Lemasive said:

Most of them play because they want to have fun

So do I. But then I get called names by people like you who assume that I am (some term) based on the ship I am currently sailing. Very superficial prejudice.

 

And regarding the skill; I am potato and have fun - while still trying to be useful to my team. Which separates me from these guys (see below). Abandon flank, zero situational awareness, eff the team and shott stoof because they wanna hevv fun (or farm damage or survive the battle to lower the service-cost ^^).

Spoiler

map.jpg.472d59668cb7820755a5a4141ea97987.jpg

 

 

3 hours ago, Lemasive said:

obsessed with stats in random games

Speaking of yourself?

3 hours ago, Lemasive said:

random stats mean almost nothing at all

Seem to matter to you, you made a topic about it. But what is the statement you wanted to make on this?

3 hours ago, Lemasive said:

So to summarize, you're seal-clubbing randoms with the motivation that this gives you status and you're seen as a skilled player.

Ah, that again...

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Imagine thinking that dropping a turd is a "statement" to be "discussed". Don't feed the troll, boyos.

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1 minute ago, VIadoCro said:

Seal-clubbing is a term often thrown around.

 

You know that the player-base of Wows is somewhat older? Many play the ships they are interested in. The first book in German language I ever bothered to to read was about the Graf Spee. Her enemies in the Battle of Rio de la Plata were Exeter and two Leanders. In-game these ships are T5 and T6.

 

The first warship I ever set a foot on irl was the Belfast in London. Guess what, I bought her the second she entered the shop. I had no idea how strong the ship would turn out to be, I just wanted a pack of pixels called "Belfast". I still play these ships and you can call me names for that, but you can also tell by my stats that I am not really aiming for purple stats.

 

I see many damage-farmers. Average damage is purple, rating so-so, w/r bad. They don´t understand why they always get such bad teams. Usually I don´t mind 4phun-players, except that many time it´s them who run away, abandon a flank and then call "noob team". But don´t worry, in these cases I earn my chat-ban rightfully.

 

So do I. But then I get called names by people like you who assume that I am (some term) based on the ship I am currently sailing. Very superficial prejudice.

 

And regarding the skill; I am potato and have fun - while still trying to be useful to my team. Which separates me from these guys (see below). Abandon flank, zero situational awareness, eff the team and shott stoof because they wanna hevv fun (or farm damage or survive the battle to lower the service-cost ^^).

  Reveal hidden contents

map.jpg.472d59668cb7820755a5a4141ea97987.jpg

 

 

Speaking of yourself?

Seem to matter to you, you made a topic about it. But what is the statement you wanted to make on this?

Ah, that again...

 You make a lot of assumptions about me, without having any context. Often people do this, because they are filling in the gaps of knowledge with their prior experience with people that they assume are in the same "box". It's not your fault, that you're doing this though. Most people can't really think critically to save their life, and you're one of them. 

 

Other then that, you did not drive the discussion forward at all. 

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3 minutes ago, Lemasive said:

You make a lot of assumptions about me

who started this?

 

3 minutes ago, Lemasive said:

you did not drive the discussion forward at all

what discussion? your accusations, name-callings and "I know better"? phew.

 

5 minutes ago, Lemasive said:

It's not your fault, that you're doing this though.

Wait, are you making assumptions that this is not my fault? :cap_popcorn:

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ehh
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1 minute ago, VIadoCro said:

who started this?

Started what? You have to be more specific, because it could mean several things. 

 

Again, I'm not making assumptions based on nothing. I'm doing it based on behavior and responses that are aligned to the thread. You're just making stuff up, based on some dude you met before that you think had the same argument as me :D

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And here we go again. Just look at his posts from 4 years ago. He did not learn a thing.

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4 minutes ago, Lemasive said:

You're just making stuff up, based on some dude you met before that you think had the same argument as me

Accusing people of stuff you do.

 

11 minutes ago, Gebe_ said:

Imagine thinking that dropping a turd is a "statement" to be "discussed". Don't feed the troll, boyos.

Yeah, should have seen your post earlier. Would have saved me a few minutes of my lifetime.

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I wish WG would hide peoples stats from the start.

 

Then if people want to, they can show them.

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Just now, Skurfa said:

I wish WG would hide peoples stats from the start.

 

Then if people want to, they can show them.

 

and why you need hide? you shame at your statistic?

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Hmmmm.... so the games objective is to win. 

 

Winning is achieved by capping and sinking ships. Dealing damage makes ships more likely to sink. 

 

So are you telling me people who deal more damage, stay alive longer and go for the objective win more often, which implies they are playing better? 

 

Colour me shocked. 

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