Ships that go from Hero to Zero.........

[Hopeless_Guppy]

For me it has to be the Nelson, I used to love this ship, now it's a struggle to want to play her, no idea if I have forgotten how to play her right, or if she has simply been power crept, but it just seem I am wrong footed in every single game, Maybe she serves best in a division, I simply have no idea anymore.

So what are your Hero to Zero ships?

[Captain_Newman]

Most of that has to do with the fact T7 MM got a lot worse than it used to be. Nelson is a fairly squishy BB so going against t9 BB’s like Soyuz, Musashi, Georgia etc. isn’t going to be fun. It just happens a lot more now. Nelson doesn’t take kindly to being +2’d.

[COPlUM]

Nelson is not the problem - T7 is. T7 is in the same spot T8 was years ago, people were mostly playing T10, now most are playing T9 so thats where Nelson goes. Sinop is even more extreme, it can tank a bit more but it lacks the range to even shoot back when its bottom tier.

 

T7 is just rough, you get sucked into T9 games, T7 DDs cant do much because they're at a 10% concealment disadvantage, BBs can't do much because they're covered in 26mm and everything else is covered in 32mm or more.

Keep your favorite T7s for T7 ranked which, with the new system, will happen often enough. Don't play them in randoms unless you're willing to basically be a bottom feeder 2 out of 3 rounds.

[COPlUM]

One of the biggest hero to zero ship went back to hero with the rework. North Carolina. Was a hero because big scary accurate guns, best AA and concealment. Sneak up on people and blap them with 406mm american freedom-delivery shells. Then it went to zero because carriers started laughing at N.Carolina's AA, no more sneaking up on anything. Now NC's AA is actually scary again with full AA build so carriers leave you alone after one attempt, it can sneak up on other ships again. She's real fun now.

There's so many hero to zero ships, Khaba, poor thing, the only thing keeping it alive was speed, 45kt these days is nothing with all the russian 1000m/s velocity guns. Shimakaze, her big thing was concealment, to quote flamu "These days, carriers take your biggest strength, concealment, they wrap it up in a convenient dildo shaped form and stick concealment up your a$$"

Hindenburg is another one, that ship gave up everything to be tanky. Slow, fat, spotted from the moon, virtually no utility at high tier. But with all the 457s overmatching every pixel of that ship, these days, it gives up everything for a vague memory of being tanky.

We have new heroes now

[Figment]

32 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

Sinop is even more extreme, it can tank a bit more but it lacks the range to even shoot back when its bottom tier.

Pretty much describes a few recent matches. Perma spotted by a DD and too slow and sluggish to escape or dodge much incoming fire. Can still deal good damage to cruisers if they allow you a broadside, but it's often times very painful. AA doesn't help being reliant on a fighter which often enough only starts attacking incoming air after it has done its bit. No spotter, massive detection range and barely able to get the third turret on target most the time without overexposing.

 

I've been thinking of getting the Nelson for quite some time, but I'm just not sure if it's worth the free exp. given the experience on the Sinop. It'd help if there'd be more protected matchmaking in mid tiers, it'd boost the population in those tiers as there'd be less risk and there's more opportunities without radar and mass torp spam. Certainly now that the game has become top heavy at T9 and T10 dragging 7 and 8 constantly into top tier matches.

[COPlUM]

32 minutes ago, Figment said:

I've been thinking of getting the Nelson for quite some time, but I'm just not sure if it's worth the free exp. given the experience on the Sinop.

For randoms nelson > sinop because she's still really powerful in T7 and bottom tier it can spam HE and zombie heal, Sinop can't do anything really in T9. In T7 ranked, small maps, Sinop is king and everyone else is a filthy peasant, they must all bow to the might of the soviet union.

[Verblonde]

56 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

Nelson is not the problem - T7 is.

This.

 

There are quite a few ships at T7 that are objectively quite decent, right up to the point where they face T9s; there are a small number of noble exceptions (Haida being the main one that springs to mind), but only a very few.

 

I'd actually forgotten quite how badly some T7 DDs lose the vision battle, until last night when I unlocked Jervis again on my NA account - Gordon Bennett, she's about as stealthy as a marching band riding on a scrapyard lorry...!

[COPlUM]

Also this isn't a bad thing, one of the best things about warships is the quest to collect good ships with good captains for specific jobs. Some ships handle bottom tier and random battles well, some dominate their own tier and handle ranked well. Some are really good in Randoms but poop in clan battles and vice versa. Some do well in small maps, some do well in large maps.

When people go through the trouble of getting the correct ship for specific content, training up a captains tailored for these ships, practicing in them and understanding when to play it, they should be rewarded by just having a straight up better ship in that situation than someone else who is just playing whatever.

So like when when it's time for T7 ranked small maps, don't hate on people running sinop, they anticipated and prepped for this, you did not. When it's time for 1v1 T10, don't hate on people playing GK, that's the one situation where their ship is actually amazing. When it's time for 3v3 T9, don't hate on pommern, they picked it over a Georgia for those games (or because they derp)

[Deckeru_Maiku]

1 hour ago, Captain_Newman said:

Nelson most non-DD ships does don’t take kindly to being +2’d

fixed that for You.

 

That "T7 problem gets into T9" doesn't differ much for the one that T5 BBs have meeting T7 BBs... or T6 BBs getting r*ped by T8 CVs etc. etc.

And contrary to the "it's the tier, not the players..." I think the player themselves are a large part of the problem themselves. Those who have enough experience and knowledge about the abilities and flaws of their ships usually do better when uptiered.

But of course that's only my opinion...

[COPlUM]

11 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

I'd actually forgotten quite how badly some T7 DDs lose the vision battle

T7 DDs is the roughest thing there is, because you're heavily outspotted and outgunned by everything else, it's supposed to be one or the other. The only T7 DD that does bottom tier OK is Gadjah Mada - she's not the best in T7 ranked and CB (still decent) - but because it has Jervis firepower and forward firing angles, you can actually beat a T8 if you have the balls and skills to charge him - It can also spend 420 seconds (seven minutes) in smoke, that's annoying for any cruiser and battleship, doesn't matter they're 2 tiers higher.

[COPlUM]

3 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Those who have enough experience and knowledge about the abilities and flaws of their ships usually do better when uptiered.

Sure but some things are just more painful than others. Like if you're fighting Jutland in a Minsk, you better bring some luck with that experience and knowledge.

[elblancogringo]

2 hours ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

 Then it went to zero because carriers started laughing at N.Carolina's AA, no more sneaking up on anything.

I disagree with that statement, saying NC went to zero just because of its AA is imo overreacting.

I think she always has been a fine ship, because what matters are her guns, and they always were fantastic.

[GulvkluderGuld]

Blyscawica --> got f*cked when WG removed stealth fire. Still says in description it can steath fire!

YueYang --> got nerfhammered flat

Worcherster -> nerfhammered by IFHE rework and radar nerf

 

[Captain_Newman]

6 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

fixed that for You.

 

That "T7 problem gets into T9" doesn't differ much for the one that T5 BBs have meeting T7 BBs... or T6 BBs getting r*ped by T8 CVs etc. etc.

And contrary to the "it's the tier, not the players..." I think the player themselves are a large part of the problem themselves. Those who have enough experience and knowledge about the abilities and flaws of their ships usually do better when uptiered.

But of course that's only my opinion...

 

Ofc there’s a player skill component to it. Doesn’t change the fact that Nelson does a lot worse in t9 mm than Giulio does at t7, for example. Nelson is a particularly tough example because of it’s relative squishiness even among it’s same tier peers.

 

So, even for a skilled player, a Nelson will have a tougher time in t9 than, say, a Sinop...

[SkollUlfr]

pepsi was a ship i liked a hell of a lot more before. now its stand off range makes it boring.

 

7 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

That "T7 problem gets into T9" doesn't differ much for the one that T5 BBs have meeting T7 BBs...

for t5 usn this is true, since bad armour and 14kts in a turn, but a lot of the time t7 still dont have the laser guided railguns of t9/10.

 

[Jethro_Grey]

Krasny Krim.

It was the Smolester at TV, now it's just horrible.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

3 hours ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

YueYang --> got nerfhammered flat

Sorry, but I'd disagree with that. Sure, she is not the destroyer to end all destroyers she once was. The French, alternate Japanese and European dds provided her with competition. Yet, if played exclusively with radar she is still very viable imo. 

 

While I don't own her I would add the Black to the list. Yes, smoke and radar are powerful, but there are so many better all around dds in the game by now that at least to me, she has lost pretty much all her appeal.

[Perekotypole]

T7 BBs are still less often uptiered then DDs and cruisers. T9 BBs vs T7 cruisers seems like a new format. For DDs it's not that bad, getting uptiered by BBs isn't much of an problem, cause it's usually DDs and cruisers who are bottom tier. BBs are by a large margin most popular class in game...

[GulvkluderGuld]

1 hour ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Sorry, but I'd disagree with that. Sure, she is not the destroyer to end all destroyers she once was. The French, alternate Japanese and European dds provided her with competition. Yet, if played exclusively with radar she is still very viable imo. 

 

While I don't own her I would add the Black to the list. Yes, smoke and radar are powerful, but there are so many better all around dds in the game by now that at least to me, she has lost pretty much all her appeal.

Interesting. Why would you prefer it over Småland?

I bought the YY permacamo and played hundreds of games with smoke as DD hunter untill WeeGee hit it with that 40% reload nerf. That just doesnt work anymore. Guessing you play with torpedoes?

 

Curious why you dont like Black if you like YY anyway. They have exactly the same radar.

While the torps are trash, Black is still very good in DD vs DD situations. Only Småland, Daring and Kitakaze sisters can trade evenly with her using blindfire.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

43 minutes ago, GulvkluderGuld said:

Interesting. Why would you prefer it over Småland?

I bought the YY permacamo and played hundreds of games with smoke as DD hunter untill WeeGee hit it with that 40% reload nerf. That just doesnt work anymore. Guessing you play with torpedoes?

 

Curious why you dont like Black if you like YY anyway. They have exactly the same radar.

While the torps are trash, Black is still very good in DD vs DD situations. Only Småland, Daring and Kitakaze sisters can trade evenly with her using blindfire.

Can't really say a lot about the former. I do dislike high dpm dds with a heal though since they can handle pretty much all other dds should they be able to disengage from the first encounter. 

 

The problem I see with the black are the anemic torps. Thus you are pretty much forced to use your guns which will also require you to smoke up (yes, it is a fletcher hull and I love that ship). With all the radars introduced within the last year her gimmick is not as viable anymore, especially since daring and z52 hydro are also good at contesting caps. 

 

Personally I can pretty much deal with the reload nerf, although it was exessive. She is also the only ship for which I bought the premium camo. 

 

I play the yy as a call denier with radar instead of smoke and rely on my team pretty vastly. Interestingly enough my wr with her is atrocious, while my gearing has a way better one. I so still believe I'm rather efficient with her and will always go for torps once I got the other dd killed/out of the cap (this applies only to games without a carrier).

 

My results in her after the patch have been quite nice overall. And I do believe she is balanced much better than when she was introduced. Again, this is only an opinion piece, but she is far from zero for me. 

[RenamedUser_92906789]

Konig, Sharnhorst, Blyska, Khaba, Saipan, Atlanta, Flint, Shira, Yueyang, HIV, MVR, oh and old Cleveland! ... are just some examples, where ships were really really strong in the past.

 

Most were hammered (not bad now), but still only a shadow of its former self.

 

Clemson on the other hand .... :)

[Yedwy]

16 hours ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

For me it has to be the Nelson, I used to love this ship, now it's a struggle to want to play her, no idea if I have forgotten how to play her right, or if she has simply been power crept, but it just seem I am wrong footed in every single game, Maybe she serves best in a division, I simply have no idea anymore.

So what are your Hero to Zero ships?

TBH Nellie always was a bit of a glass cannon and required very careful play not to get deleted, however superheal and nuclar HE shells balanced that out

[Skurfa]

57 minutes ago, nambr9 said:

Clemson on the other hand .... :)

 

Hush now!!

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

OH one that could be up for discussion in the current meta is des moines/Salem. Those two are quite a ways more challenging now than before. Certainly not zeroes though. 

[GulvkluderGuld]

4 hours ago, dCK_Ad_Hominem said:

Can't really say a lot about the former. I do dislike high dpm dds with a heal though since they can handle pretty much all other dds should they be able to disengage from the first encounter. 

 

The problem I see with the black are the anemic torps. Thus you are pretty much forced to use your guns which will also require you to smoke up (yes, it is a fletcher hull and I love that ship). With all the radars introduced within the last year her gimmick is not as viable anymore, especially since daring and z52 hydro are also good at contesting caps. 

 

Personally I can pretty much deal with the reload nerf, although it was exessive. She is also the only ship for which I bought the premium camo. 

 

I play the yy as a call denier with radar instead of smoke and rely on my team pretty vastly. Interestingly enough my wr with her is atrocious, while my gearing has a way better one. I so still believe I'm rather efficient with her and will always go for torps once I got the other dd killed/out of the cap (this applies only to games without a carrier).

 

My results in her after the patch have been quite nice overall. And I do believe she is balanced much better than when she was introduced. Again, this is only an opinion piece, but she is far from zero for me. 

Not a fan of powercreep eh? I must concur in principle.

 

Black isnt good at fighting other things than DD but I find it quite good into Z52s. The rest is true though. Havnt used mine in ages because it lacks versatility.

 

Yue I havnt touched either, been playing mostly Daring and Småland and kitakaze sisters fo regrinding.

Dont like any DD that relies on the team to do anything except in competitive. I want to win and enjoy games, not scream at zombies  Might work in divisions though.

My winrate and dmg numbers used to be far better in Yue than Gearing probably due to the smoke being OP for hunting dds. 

 

Overall Yue used to be inferior to Chung untill the nerf hammer caught up with that one too. Now Idk. The line is kinda dead to me. I find radar DDs need to have superior DPM to carry, otherwise they're just bad.