american secondary bbs and any secondary bbs are garnage now(besides germans)

[leonport]

i wanna talk about my massachusetts and how its secondary build is dead after the update

like whats they point of running full secondary build on massachusetts,georgia anymore? they basically nerfed them while also powercreep them with buffing germans like before germans had bad accuracy but great pen and americans had great accuracy and bad pen but all changed after 0.10.0 because wg decided that manual secondary is to OP so they cut the accuracy bonus in half, and only compensated germans in a meaningfull way(2 point ifhe is good and they buffed base accuracy and range for their secondary which is nice but i still think they hard nerfed some german secondary ships) but the americans received only nerf with 0 compensation whatsoever(i do not consider the "they can now fire at both sides simutaniusly a buff), so again what's the point of running secondary build on something like georgia?  While pommern received big buffs with 2 point ifhe and +500m base range gerorgia only received -25% accuracy loss on manual secondary, why wg do you need to kill my favourite build on my favourite ship?

 

also can we talk about other secondary ships that just received flat nerfs?

 

like odin secondary is garbage and it only received nerfs, odin now has less accurate secondary and uhm uhm nothing? odin only got powercreeped by this update,odin used to have the same range as g.k but now it has just has slightly better range than bismarck, 2 point ifhe on secondary that already pen 32mm is just downgrade so thank you for destroying secondary odin, but hey concelament odin with deadeye is basically a super cruiser now so thats saves odin from being a totally loser with this update

 

also shikishima, its secondary was something that was great and even made a lot of people buy it because of that, now its a shadow of its former self, sure 2 point ifhe is an alright buff but holy s*** their accuracy (just like any secondary that doesn't have improved dispersion) suck hard now they now hit half as many shells as before so thank you wg for releasing an update to make MORE DIVERSITY best update ever

 

what you did to french secondaries is sick

and give refound on siegfried to people who purchased it because its unique secondary is now non existent thanks to your stupid idea that hey lets give all cruisers the same range on secondaries, remember that siegfired used to have a better secondary than agir? now agir actually has just plain better secondary than siegfried, you spit onto those players face who researched siegfried in hopes of getting a cruiser that has bb secondaries

 

my solution is simple: just either give us pre nerfed manual secondary or buff all bb secondary accuracy also give siegfried players some compensation for removing a gimmick of their belowed ship

[Ragnarox]

I have massa , pommern, agir and georgia, played them with secondary build cause I bought them for that, and now i need to play as a sniper while they were advertised as brawlers. So what now WG? You practically sold me garbage. You advertised something and then what, took it away, this is false advertising. 

 

I hope you go bankrupt this year.

[Redcap375]

In a nut shell:

 

WG won't do a thing.  Not a sausage. 

 

Regarding the Massa, yes you are completely right. The thing that made special it was it's very accurate secondaries. Even back pre-nerf they didn't always hit of course but they could reliably hit manual targets very well.  DD especially and that was it's gimmick.  Anti non main guns DD killers.  "I'll kill that cruiser and BB whilst my secondaries rip that DD a new one".

 

Now that has all changed regarding the latter.

 

You can still hit BB's well, you can still hit heavy cruisers well, but regarding DD's? Nope.  Well not to the point where you are gonna wanna spend all those skills on it anyway. 

 

Secondaries were hanging on by a thread anyway and this rework is the kiss of death in every sense. 

 

 

 

[Redcap375]

When the Massa first came out, I always spec it for secondary action. 

 

Not anymore. 

 

As it can no longer reliably hit DD's, I only take the range extender skill and mod (20%).  And that is because causing the odd fire on a BB or to can help in certain situations, but it's far from ideal. Basically I just wanna keep some remanence of a brawling build on at least one ship. A reminder of what it used to be like.

 

The rest goes straight into turtle the tank build. 

[Migantium_Mashum]

You cannot argue with this fact.

 

Yes for Tier 7 to Tier 10 ships the dispersion is reduced from -60 to -35 but for Tier 3 to Tier 6 the change is an improvement.

 

On my KM BB's I have worked two Captains one as a secondary build and one as a brawler and I have greater success with the secondary build.

 

On my US ships my Massa is just as good as before with a secondary build.

 

The only ship in which I have noticed a drop in performance is my Jean Bart and so she is now a successful brawler.

[leonport]

4 minutes ago, Redcap375 said:

In a nut shell:

 

WG won't do a thing.  Not a sausage. 

 

Regarding the Massa, yes you are completely right. The thing that made special it was it's very accurate secondaries. Even back pre-nerf they didn't always hit of course but they could reliably hit manual targets very well.  DD especially and that was it's gimmick.  Anti non main guns DD killers.  "I'll kill that cruiser and BB whilst my secondaries rip that DD a new one".

 

Now that has all changed regarding the latter.

 

You can still hit BB's well, you can still hit heavy cruisers well, but regarding DD's? Nope.  Well not to the point where you are gonna wanna spend all those skills on it anyway. 

 

Secondaries were hanging on by a thread anyway and this rework is the kiss of death in every sense. 

 

 

 

my statement is that massa secodaries are just overall hot garbage now(not as hot as french secondary) yeah sure you can hit bbs and heavy cruisers BUT they lose so much hitrate against them too,like before rework i remember they were so accurate that even if only the 2 secondary turetts were fireing i still got hits at close range and deal dmg, start fires but now they are basically pre 0.10.0 german secondaries but without the german 1/4 pen so they are now just garbage the thing that made them good secondary was that their high hitrate and rate of fire with decent fire chance made them deal the same dmg as german secondaries that had great pen but now german secondary has the same aim but way better range and pen, this mean usn secondary ships are dead

[Uglesett]

"Garnage"?

 

I know it's a typo, but as a portmanteau of "garbage" and "carnage" that's actually a brilliant word. So many things it can be applied to.

[SkollUlfr]

secondaries need a full rework. give secondaries a 1.5x rather than the 2.5x velocity multiplier all shells have now, and make secondary mounts have normal traverse rates.

this would be balanced to allow heavy brawling between BB while not crushing DD who would be able to use their agility without taking railgun rounds.

 

3 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

Tier 3 to Tier 6 the change is an improvement.

still only getting 5% hits though

base hull secondary spec new york is pretty funny providing you dont get torped or shredded due to your bad armour.

[leonport]

9 minutes ago, Migantium_Mashum said:

You cannot argue with this fact.

 

Yes for Tier 7 to Tier 10 ships the dispersion is reduced from -60 to -35 but for Tier 3 to Tier 6 the change is an improvement.

 

On my KM BB's I have worked two Captains one as a secondary build and one as a brawler and I have greater success with the secondary build.

 

On my US ships my Massa is just as good as before with a secondary build.

 

The only ship in which I have noticed a drop in performance is my Jean Bart and so she is now a successful brawler.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW better secondary dispersion on my oklahoma best update ever lol

also km bbs as i said some of them actually got a buff while others like odin got nerfed

if you do not see performance issues on your massa secondaries you are probably never click on detailed statistics

and i don't know what to say on your jean bart

[Redcap375]

47 minutes ago, leonport said:

my statement is that massa secodaries are just overall hot garbage now(not as hot as french secondary) yeah sure you can hit bbs and heavy cruisers BUT they lose so much hitrate against them too,like before rework i remember they were so accurate that even if only the 2 secondary turetts were fireing i still got hits at close range and deal dmg, start fires but now they are basically pre 0.10.0 german secondaries but without the german 1/4 pen so they are now just garbage the thing that made them good secondary was that their high hitrate and rate of fire with decent fire chance made them deal the same dmg as german secondaries that had great pen but now german secondary has the same aim but way better range and pen, this mean usn secondary ships are dead

 

Bed time but...

 

They are not hot garbage, as that would mean they can't hit anything like French BB's now (ouch they got nerf in the secondary department).  So hot garbage would mean French BB's secondaries for instance.

 

But the Massa, Georgia and Ohio can STILL, and i mean just about, use a secondary build.  But as it wasn't ideal for comp play then, it's tipped even further now. 

 

You then add the fact of every man and his dog is camping now and throwing shells (HE mainly) at a long distances with DEADEYE or cruiser spamming with the reload skill, it's simply not worth it.

 

The nerf and meta have reduced them to not much.  You NEED FP..You NEED more heals...You NEED to be spotted less...And those skills arnt cheap.

 

I can still get about 30,000 damage on BB's and cruisers from secondaries from the Massa and Georgia, sometimes more and sometimes less depending on RNG. That is with a half spec only.

 

Now could I have caused that damage with my main guns if I would have stayed alive longer per game?  With FP, range and an extra heal?  Almost certainly yes. 

 

So people can choose which they think is worth it more.  But for me? The days of fully secondary builds are gone, they handicap your team too much. 

 

I miss them already.

[Migantium_Mashum]

8 hours ago, leonport said:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW better secondary dispersion on my oklahoma best update ever lol

also km bbs as i said some of them actually got a buff while others like odin got nerfed

if you do not see performance issues on your massa secondaries you are probably never click on detailed statistics

and i don't know what to say on your jean bart

It's a personal opinion I've been playing this game long enough to have one 

 

It doesn't mean it's right but based on the games played so far it's how I see things 

Maybe after another 30 or 100 games my 'Opinion' might be different.

[DFens_666]

9 hours ago, leonport said:

if you do not see performance issues on your massa secondaries you are probably never click on detailed statistics

 

 

Played 11 Massa games since the rework - i dont see an issue. Sure, sometimes its not that great, but that also depends on the enemies, f.e. the 49 hits 9022 enemies just camped in spawn so can hardly make them work outside of maxrange.

You played what, 2 Massa games since rework? That really cant tell you anything...

 

9 hours ago, leonport said:

german secondary has the same aim

 

No

Bismarck @11,49km 262m

 

Massa @11,34km 200m

 

US BBs still have better dispersion.

 

10 hours ago, leonport said:

odin used to have the same range as g.k but now it has just has slightly better range than bismarck

 

So because GK got buffed to 12,5km, Odin got nerfed... that makes sense

[Miscommunication_dept]

9 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

 

Bed time but...

 

They are not hot garbage, as that would mean they can't hit anything like French BB's now (ouch they got nerf in the secondary department).  So hot garbage would mean French BB's secondaries for instance.

 

But the Massa, Georgia and Ohio can STILL, and i mean just about, use a secondary build.  But as it wasn't ideal for comp play then, it's tipped even further now. 

 

You then add the fact of every man and his dog is camping now and throwing shells (HE mainly) at a long distances with DEADEYE or cruiser spamming with the reload skill, it's simply not worth it.

 

The nerf and meta have reduced them to not much.  You NEED FP..You NEED more heals...You NEED to be spotted less...And those skills arnt cheap.

 

I can still get about 30,000 damage on BB's and cruisers from secondaries from the Massa and Georgia, sometimes more and sometimes less depending on RNG. That is with a half spec only.

 

Now could I have caused that damage with my main guns if I would have stayed alive longer per game?  With FP, range and an extra heal?  Almost certainly yes. 

 

So people can choose which they think is worth it more.  But for me? The days of fully secondary builds are gone, they handicap your team too much. 

 

I miss them already.

I really noticed that when trying aggressive battleship play. 

Formerly, when positioned well, I would take some damage but be dishing out more. 

 

Now, if I take an aggressive central position, I get nailed repeatedly by battleships, many flinging HE.

 

Couple that with Cruisers that now sit at max range, unconcerned with their concealment as they are spotted continuously with their 20km detection, firing continuously.

 

I am genuinely surprised that Wargaming are not only  happy with this play but they actually encourage it.

 

That said, Smaland and Friesland are a lot of fun right now!

[Miscommunication_dept]

2 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

Played 11 Massa games since the rework - i dont see an issue. Sure, sometimes its not that great, but that also depends on the enemies, f.e. the 49 hits 9022 enemies just camped in spawn so can hardly make them work outside of maxrange.

You played what, 2 Massa games since rework? That really cant tell you anything...

 

 

No

Bismarck @11,49km 262m

 

Massa @11,34km 200m

 

US BBs still have better dispersion.

 

 

So because GK got buffed to 12,5km, Odin got nerfed... that makes sense

Odin's secondary problem is their arcs. If you angle you fire so few guns it's not really worth it.

 

Massa still looks good as a secondary boat, It's extra accuracy and fire starting makes it at least as good as the Bismarck.

 

GK definitely now has the advantage over Ohio in secondaries. Fortunately, Ohio has great guns.

[invicta2012]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

So because GK got buffed to 12,5km, Odin got nerfed... that makes sense

Well, it all got normalised, didn't it? So Odin only has "normal" secondaries for a Tier VIII BB. A German one, so still powerful in terms of range, calibre and pen. 

 

I'm not sure secondaries have been nerfed to oblivion. Perhaps made less of an "I Win" button, especially where anti-DD defence is concerned. But that seems fair. Whisper it, but if it wasn't for Deadeye I would quite like this skills rework for BBs. Cruisers and DDs less so, but for BBs (with that one exception) it's all quite good.

[DFens_666]

Just now, invicta2012 said:

Well, it all got normalised, didn't it? So Odin only has "normal" secondaries for a Tier VIII BB. A German one, so still powerful in terms of range, calibre and pen. 

 

If you mean that their range got nerfed then no, any ship that had more range before didnt get its range reduced. Otherwise Massa wouldnt have 11,3km either.

Odin has 11,64km? according to wowsft, which is more than bismarck.

[invicta2012]

3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

If you mean that their range got nerfed then no, any ship that had more range before didnt get its range reduced. Otherwise Massa wouldnt have 11,3km either.

Odin has 11,64km? according to wowsft, which is more than bismarck.

Not nerfed, but I suppose it's about Odin's secondaries relative to other similar ships. Better reload and range than Bismarck, but worse than Pommern on both scores. They're good but you don't feel like you've got Tier IX secondaries in a Tier VIII boat. FWIW, I think that should be Bismarck's USP these days, Tirpitz and Odin have got torps for brawling....

[leonport]

9 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

 

Played 11 Massa games since the rework - i dont see an issue. Sure, sometimes its not that great, but that also depends on the enemies, f.e. the 49 hits 9022 enemies just camped in spawn so can hardly make them work outside of maxrange.

You played what, 2 Massa games since rework? That really cant tell you anything...

 

 

No

Bismarck @11,49km 262m

 

Massa @11,34km 200m

 

US BBs still have better dispersion.

 

 

So because GK got buffed to 12,5km, Odin got nerfed... that makes sense

well no as you can see your secondary performance is terrible lmao, like most of them are 250 shots fired: with 50 hits,thats thrash accuracy lol and around 1/5 shell hit which means 20% hitrate and thats terrible lol, americans used to have around 30-40%hitarte before 0.10.0 

 

and what you show me about bismarck and massa dispersion is just plain sad so now germans have around 25%worse base dispersion while most of their secondary can pen 32mm thats further proofs american secondary is as i said garbage

[DFens_666]

4 minutes ago, leonport said:

well no as you can see your secondary performance is terrible lmao, like most of them are 250 shots fired: with 50 hits,thats thrash accuracy lol and around 1/5 shell hit which means 20% hitrate and thats terrible lol, americans used to have around 30-40%hitarte before 0.10.0  

 

and what you show me about bismarck and massa dispersion is just plain sad so now germans have around 25%worse base dispersion while most of their secondary can pen 32mm thats further proofs american secondary is as i said garbage

 

You cant compare hitrate 1:1 because secondaries open up even if you dont have a target selected. That means, they fire without dispersion bonus and hit less. And they also fire if you have a target on 2 sides, which also lowers the hitrate. Neither happened prior to the rework. If you failed to set a target, secondaries didnt fire. Or if you had ships on both sides, only the prioritized side fires.

btw about your "20%hitrate"

45%

32,8%

33,5%

46,6%

27%

28,9%

18,3%

18,2%

25,4%

28,8%

21,7%

 

So only 2 games i had worse than 20% hitrate and once close to that... not your "OMEGALUL YOUR SECONDARY HITRATE IS 20% NOOB" imaginary thing. Overall hitrate is 31,3%, so its in the range you claim they should have. And as i explained, lower hitrate is to be expected when your secondaries open up without dispersion buff.

 

[leonport]

49 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

So because GK got buffed to 12,5km, Odin got nerfed... that makes sense

i say odin is powercreeped just like siegfried basically all german bbs got range buff so odin 7.7km range isn't so special anymore like before 0.10.0 odin used to have more range than pommern and that was on of its gimmick, also it used to have the same 7.7km range as g.k BUT after 0.10.0 every german secondary besides odin got some kind of range buffs but odin left out while also receiving an overall accuracy nerf and ifhe has no value on odin unlike it has on bismarck or tirpitz

 

this whole thing just simpler:odin did not receive any buffs for its secondary accuracy loss while all other german ships received some kind of buff so odin secondary is only nerfed while other german secondaries received either small buffs(like range) or huge buffs(im talking about pommern,fdg,bismarck tirpitz that received overall buffs because their 105mm secondary can pen 32mm with new cheap ifhe) 

[Bligger]

I guess that hit ratio of about 30% is because only big ships were targeted as prio.

The numbers itself seem quite low tbh.

 

Besides that: what are we talking about?

Are secondaries nerved? Yes, simple math ....

Are secondary builds (still) viable? Hm, why should they when the meta has changed and most nations/ships are tweaked to perform less seconadary wise?

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, leonport said:

i say odin is powercreeped just like siegfried basically all german bbs got range buff so odin 7.7km range isn't so special anymore like before 0.10.0 odin used to have more range than pommern and that was on of its gimmick, also it used to have the same 7.7km range as g.k BUT after 0.10.0 every german secondary besides odin got some kind of range buffs but odin left out while also receiving an overall accuracy nerf and ifhe has no value on odin unlike it has on bismarck or tirpitz

 

Neither Bismarck nor Tirpitz got a range buff. Every BB has less accurate secondaries, this is not exlcusive to Odin. Also Odin doesnt get replaced by GKs in a game, so i dont understand why that matters?

Sure, IFHE is cheaper now, but they still need to skill it while Odin has it for free and you dont butcher your firechance due to that. What you are trying to sell me is, that Odin got nerfed because it doesnt need IFHE. Do you want WG to nerf Odins secondaries so you can specc for IFHE? You can still get some other skill, which Bismarck and Tirpitz cant get because they might take IFHE. And who says they have to take it in the first place?

Why dont we talk about secondary ships getting a skill that reduces MB-reload when a ship is in secondary range? Guess thats a nerf for secondary ships aswell lol...

[DFens_666]

27 minutes ago, Bligger said:

I guess that hit ratio of about 30% is because only big ships were targeted as prio.

The numbers itself seems quite low tbh.

 

So for example, you have your secondaries set on a BB. Suddenly, a DD gets spotted on the other side and your secondaries AUTOMATICALLY fire at that DD without the Manual secondary bonus. You cant prevent those secondaries from firing. ofc they lower the overall hitrate, because they dont hit well. Previously, they didnt fire at all, so i guess secondaries got nerfed, if you dont understand why you hit less. They certainly didnt get nerfed to an extend where they are useless.

[ForlornSailor]

11 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

"I'll kill that cruiser and BB whilst my secondaries rip that DD a new one".

 

When we are beeing honest - that was exactly over the top, same as for Ohio. Ive spend short durations several times in secondaries of Ohio/Georgia/Massa with the old manual secondary skill, and it was straight out a joke, how much damage you took in a very short duration without the enemy BB needing to show any sing of skill besides left-click - wait, that reminds me of something... and I hear plane noises all of a sudden. that beeing said:

 

11 hours ago, Redcap375 said:

But the Massa, Georgia and Ohio can STILL, and i mean just about, use a secondary build.  But as it wasn't ideal for comp play then, it's tipped even further now. 

 

This is true. I tried a little bit around and full secondary Massa works just fine. This week, ranked, all but one game is manual secondary + sec range, no IFHE. And even the one game, where I tried without manual secondary, was a win (but then with really bad secondary results).

 

 

You just play a little bit accordingly. BBs are still awesome targets for you secondaries, combined with the great firing angles, you can lock down any BB in position and take the secondary fight. Shoot HE with your mainguns for the extra lolz and push over the enemys DCP capabilities.

1 hour ago, Bligger said:

Are secondary builds (still) viable? Hm, why should they when the meta has changed and most nations/ships are tweaked to perform less seconadary wise?

See above. Ship performs awesome.

 

 

[leonport]

6 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

You just play a little bit accordingly. BBs are still awesome targets for you secondaries

you know what can also kill bbs? yeah  main guns which received huge buffs with deadeye and all you have to do is stay 13-14km away from your target