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elblancogringo

Buff Siegfried's secondaries

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Following the commander rework, Siegfried captains no longer have access to a skill which improves secondaries accuracy.

The range of the secondaries also decreased. I wanted this ship because of the fun to play a brawling secondary cruiser.

The 0.10 update ruined it.

Please Wargaming @MrConway @Crysantos buff Siegfried range to its previous range when fully secondary spec'd, and increase their accuracies as well.

You said you would be monitoring ships following this update. You obviously thought about Siegfried as you increased a bit its base secondary range, but still not enough to reach the previous one. Why?

Following this update I made a ticket asking for my research bureau points back, as I don't want to play siegfried anymore in the current iteration, it is just another boring long range sniper now.

But of course I was told that following major updates like this, no compensation was given.

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1 minute ago, elblancogringo said:

Following the commander rework, Siegfried captains no longer have access to a skill which improves secondaries accuracy.

The range of the secondaries also decreased. I wanted this ship because of the fun to play a brawling secondary cruiser.

The 0.10 update ruined it.

Please Wargaming @MrConway @Crysantos buff Siegfried range to its previous range when fully secondary spec'd, and increase their accuracies as well.

You said you would be monitoring ships following this update. You obviously thought about Siegfried as you increased a bit its base secondary range, but still not enough to reach the previous one. Why?

Following this update I made a ticket asking for my research bureau points back, as I don't want to play siegfried anymore in the current iteration, it is just another boring long range sniper now.

But of course I was told that following major updates like this, no compensation was given.

 

Agree.

 

Siegfried also needs the accuracy buff the German BBs got T7+

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Siegfried as a unique and interesting cruiser, 11.9km concealment with 11.5km secondaries. combined with decent armour when angled up close made it a tough ship. Now, Agir has better secondaries.

There is no longer any point to buying this ship.

I too would like a refund as I will not take the Siegfried out as a sniper while I have a deadeye equipped Slava in port! 

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8 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

I too would like a refund as I will not take the Siegfried out as a sniper while I have a deadeye equipped Slava in port! 

Indeed, why buying this ship now? Her unique feature which made her fun and interesting to play is now gone. But there will be no refund, the customer support unfortunately was very clear when I asked one...

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I want my RB points back too, and steel for Flint as well pls.

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Easiest solution would be for WG to buff the base levels of this ship, this will not involve fiddling  with their precious commander skill rework.

 

Give a built in 20%  range increase and 50% dispersion decrease would it bring it in line with German battleships.

 

As this issue affects only one ship, It does look like a targeted nerf. In reality, It's a by product of a rework that has many failings.

 

They might fix it but I don't expect they will.

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I did not buy it when I heard captain rework was coming. 

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3 hours ago, gopher31 said:

Easiest solution would be for WG to buff the base levels of this ship, this will not involve fiddling  with their precious commander skill rework.

 

Give a built in 20%  range increase and 50% dispersion decrease would it bring it in line with German battleships.

 

As this issue affects only one ship, It does look like a targeted nerf. In reality, It's a by product of a rework that has many failings.

 

They might fix it but I don't expect they will.

There is an easy way to fix a lot of it, remove all 3 of those pointless torpedo skills for cruisers, no one will pick those unless there is literally nothing better to pick and replace them with the Old PM, BFT and AR, sorted remove that HE and SAP skill and put in the option of manual secondaries.

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17 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

There is an easy way to fix a lot of it, remove all 3 of those pointless torpedo skills for cruisers, no one will pick those unless there is literally nothing better to pick and replace them with the Old PM, BFT and AR, sorted remove that HE and SAP skill and put in the option of manual secondaries.

The 3 Torp skills would be picked from stupied players so why  not. Those players how waste their points there havent the realy good skills.

The Italien and the IJN Cruisers can use them because there range and concealment. But it ist very usefull either.

 

The hole skill system is a good idea but most of the skills are more than rubbish. 

And leads for the stupid players to more camping and sniping in the background.

 

An GK on a flank can go near the enemy team with dead eye an can use the buff from it to snipe the enemy Cruisers as long as no enemy ship is within his concealment range an is visible.

 

But to the Topic Jean the Siegfried also all other Cruiser should get some love from WG for the missing points.

OK maybe not in the tank built ohr with 130mm 19km HE spamming. May be something like much better AA. Or better turning radius.

 

For the rework there were also ships which were on the bottom of there class. Which need some love to see them more often.

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3 hours ago, 22cm said:

I did not buy it when I heard captain rework was coming. 

Same reason I’m holding off on my Stalingrad purchase. Might end up buying the FDR instead as that class seems to be favoured.

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2 minutes ago, gopher31 said:

Same reason I’m holding off on my Stalingrad purchase. Might end up buying the FDR instead as that class seems to be favoured.

By the skill rework? Not really. Only bonus seems to be the torp skills - namely the reduced arming distance. Everything else is either a reduction in bonus or are skills for which the exact counter skills exists on other classes = equal 

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Everyone should spam their support tickets with refund requests for Siegfried. I know that I am not letting this one go, because my secondary memefried was the only reason I used my RBPs on it.

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22 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Everything else is either a reduction in bonus or are skills for which the exact counter skills exists on other classes = equal 

That would be true if people would invest into AA builds, but with more then half games without CVs that doesn't happen as it is pointless.

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On 1/23/2021 at 6:14 PM, elblancogringo said:

Following the commander rework, Siegfried captains no longer have access to a skill which improves secondaries accuracy.

The range of the secondaries also decreased. I wanted this ship because of the fun to play a brawling secondary cruiser.

The 0.10 update ruined it.

Please Wargaming @MrConway @Crysantos buff Siegfried range to its previous range when fully secondary spec'd, and increase their accuracies as well.

You said you would be monitoring ships following this update. You obviously thought about Siegfried as you increased a bit its base secondary range, but still not enough to reach the previous one. Why?

Following this update I made a ticket asking for my research bureau points back, as I don't want to play siegfried anymore in the current iteration, it is just another boring long range sniper now.

But of course I was told that following major updates like this, no compensation was given.

 

We are monitoring, but we'll have to also await conclusive data before we can make any decisions and that may take a few weeks.

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2 minutes ago, MrConway said:

 

We are monitoring, but we'll have to also await conclusive data before we can make any decisions and that may take a few weeks.

After less than a week it is pretty obvious that this rework killed most secondary bbs. All you have created is a fleet of J line campers. 

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37 minutes ago, MrConway said:

 

We are monitoring, but we'll have to also await conclusive data before we can make any decisions and that may take a few weeks.

Its logical to expect some time to get some data from some recent changes even if alot of people had express some logical issues the last month on PTS and development blog when the captain skill rework announced but im sure that when this data arrives on your magical spreadsheet and you decide to make or alter soem ships we wont get a free captain reset on the ships that got affected with these changes are we ??
So i nthe end we have to somehow pay to reskill any commander with any new changes to our ships

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1 hour ago, MrConway said:

 

We are monitoring, but we'll have to also await conclusive data before we can make any decisions and that may take a few weeks.

That certainly makes sense when it come to balance. 
However, in the case of Siegfried, the play style was changed completely. 
 

I think we need a large cruiser tab in the commander skill tree.

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Vor 2 Minuten, gopher31 sagte:

I think we need a large cruiser tab in the commander skill tree.

In this case, we will need a hybrid (Ise, Tone...) and submarine tab soon, too.

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1 minute ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

In this case, we will need a hybrid (Ise, Tone...) and submarine tab soon, too.

Yes we will. I’m sure w Submarine tab is already in the works.

 

To be honest, large cruisers would do just fine with the battleship skills but WG have made it clear that they envisage large cruisers as having the main weakness of fires.

Seems they forgot that most large cruisers are already far more vulnerable to HE than battleships due to 25-30mm armour.

And those that aren’t have terrible concealment and citadels that catch battleship shells better than any other ship.

 

 

Maybe at some point WG will give large cruisers their own classification and match making. There are plenty of them now so it shouldn’t be too difficult to do this now.

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2 hours ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

In this case, we will need a hybrid (Ise, Tone...) and submarine tab soon, too.

WG said on update stream that for Hybrids the aircraft are a secondary armament so do not require access to aircraft skills... I wonder why Cruisers have 3 useless skills for Torpedoes that are also only a "secondary armament' at best...

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4 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

WG said on update stream that for Hybrids the aircraft are a secondary armament so do not require access to aircraft skills... I wonder why Cruisers have 3 useless skills for Torpedoes that are also only a "secondary armament' at best...

I wouldn't mind one torpedo skill, like the old TAE in the cruiser list. Having 3 is overkill, as only IJN cruisers really actively use the torpedoes.

I have played with the skills a bit and found that there are viable secondary setups for cruisers. In fact the German cruiser line has some ships with spicy secondary batteries.

And I don't mean the two super-cruisers at T9. Roon for example has some solid secondaries, same goes for the Adm. Hipper hull. Biggest winner in the secondary changes is the Graf Spee, now with a max 7,1km secondary range.

Having a skill that improves range and dispersion a little, like the CV skill Close Quarters Expert, would be a big plus, allowing for a build variability.

 

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Vor 9 Minuten, Chaos_Umbra sagte:

I wonder why Cruisers have 3 useless skills for Torpedoes that are also only a "secondary armament' at best...

IJN cruisers with torp build might be worth a try.

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4 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

We are monitoring, but we'll have to also await conclusive data before we can make any decisions and that may take a few weeks.

I am glad you keep an eye on the issue. But why waiting for a few weeks? It is not a balancing issue that needs data for a long time. It is a matter of a playstyle that was removed, forcing into another playstyle.

One of your justification for the commander rework was to allow players to be able to play several builds, and not only one unique build that is efficient for each ship.

I am quoting wargaming in the Q&A about commanders rework here: "Right now, the majority of ships often have only one effective build. By adding new skills and changing old ones, we want to give players a choice between different and effective builds for different playstyles."

In the case of the Siegfried, you achieved the contrary, forcing the player base to play only one build, because of the removal of the secondary spec which before provided a fun alternative.

You also used the secondaries as a balancing parameter during the testing of the ship.

Therefore, you should in my opinion just give back previous secondary parameters, in terms of range and accuracy, regardless of the commander cruiser tree. No need to wait.

Thank you.

 

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Vor 41 Minuten, elblancogringo sagte:

In the case of the Siegfried, you achieved the contrary, forcing the player base to play only one build, because of the removal of the secondary spec which before provided a fun alternative.

Not only that.

Secondary BBs got nerfed hard - something like a fun Alsace build is now dreadfull. And even German BBs received the short end of the stick

 

BBs that relayed on utility (again mostly french) got shafted because no more SI for consumables, no JoAT and overall buid got more expensive

 

AA build is still not viable for BBs because too few and too expensive skills that dont synergize with any other skills.

 

Cruiser skills are way too one dimensional. Not a single Support skill is in the new tree for the class that defineds Support.

No consideration for specialized cruiser and really no variaty at all.

Every single cruiser is now built for damage - nothing else. Just damage.

Cruisers dont get the Interceptor just a buff for Spotter. Why isn't that Spotter skill dual purpose for Fighter as well to bring back some love for that consumable? Smoke skill for Mino is gone. And not a single skill that helps ships like Ochakov that are defined as support cruiser...

 

And even DDs are only devided between Gunboat build and Torpboat build.

AA again is 100% missing. Support is missing. Fun builds are missing

 

Its really amazing how you can move from in total 24 Skills to 96 Skills while reducing the overall possibilities for builds.

Error 404 - Fun not found.

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1 hour ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

IJN cruisers with torp build might be worth a try.

 

TBH the only reason I could see for picking them is because there are no other skills worth taking, so many of my cruiser captains get to 16-17 points spent and I just see no other skills I actually want to pick as they are just trash, I'm literally picking skills because there is nothing better to use the points on, and those torpedo skills fit right in that category...

1 hour ago, Aragathor said:

I wouldn't mind one torpedo skill, like the old TAE in the cruiser list. Having 3 is overkill, as only IJN cruisers really actively use the torpedoes.

I have played with the skills a bit and found that there are viable secondary setups for cruisers. In fact the German cruiser line has some ships with spicy secondary batteries.

And I don't mean the two super-cruisers at T9. Roon for example has some solid secondaries, same goes for the Adm. Hipper hull. Biggest winner in the secondary changes is the Graf Spee, now with a max 7,1km secondary range.

Having a skill that improves range and dispersion a little, like the CV skill Close Quarters Expert, would be a big plus, allowing for a build variability.

Well as you said there is no skill to improve dispersion so by default all Cruiser secondary builds are questionable at best, but the biggest issue with Siegfried is that it's biggest difference to the Agir pre patch was that it could be build into secondaries with a 11.5km range with a ship detection of only 11.9km, however now Agir has the same secondary range, 2 more secondary turrets and IMO is a better all around ship in the gun department cause the HE is much better at dealing with bow in targets than the Siegfried which struggles with such situations.

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