Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
Andrejevic_

Balkan Line Destroyers in European Tech Tree

33 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
79 posts
5,201 battles

~ Proposal for Second DD line of the European Tech Tree - the Balkan Line ~

 

914009511__Evropskagranarazaraa(VI)-Balkanskalinija.thumb.png.681e6b3641a4618489ecde0e1fe7a6f2.png

  • Cool 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-TPF-]
Players
4,659 posts
19,113 battles

A Hunt class DD would make a great Tier I ship for the line, though.

 

I think the Royal Hellenic Navy had some Type II Hunts (no Torpedo tubes) which would work in the same way as Black Swan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CR33D]
[CR33D]
Players
3,302 posts
30,594 battles

First if ever there was a Balkan line, it probably would not start at T2, as at T2 there is already a destroyer generally from that area, Tatra. So T3 should be the lowest but considering that this is a WG it would probably start at T5.

 

Second, both top tier ships are problematic. I guess you put them there based on their configuration during ww2. But when Greece received them, both ships were far from their original form. For example Doxa, compared to original USS Ludlow, lost one gun and BOTH sets of torps. So it basically only had 4 guns. Miaoulis, by the time it entered Greek Navy was already modernized under FRAM II program which means, while it kept all three gun turrets, it too lost both sets of torps. So both T9 and T10, should not have a single torp. Not to mention a problem that Doxa is for some reason at T9 and above Split, which was a bigger ship. At least going from Split at T9, post war configuration of course, to Sfendoni at T10 would have much more sense. But that would require some really good gimmick(s) as it would not just mean putting a Fletcher at T10, but also a Fletcher with just one set of torps. But at least there will be some consistency at T9 and T10. And on T8 you can put a Turkish (Bristol class) DD Gaziantep, which at that time had 4 guns and also, just like Split and Sfendoni, one quintuple torpedo launcher. So there would be a nice progress but still quite questionable as all of those ships should actually be a tier lower and would need really some extra to make them viable on T8-T10, like really good heal for example. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WGP2W]
[WGP2W]
Players
416 posts
19,315 battles
1 hour ago, Andrejevic_ said:

~ Proposal for Second DD line of the European Tech Tree - the Balkan Line ~

 

914009511__Evropskagranarazaraa(VI)-Balkanskalinija.thumb.png.681e6b3641a4618489ecde0e1fe7a6f2.png

Turkish and greec ships fighting together? Are we ready for this already?  Im neither from greece nor from turkey but having spend a lot of time in these countries it feels like unification of polish and german ww2 ships in one tree.

Edit: Even worse is romania as they fought on the wrong side.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
79 posts
5,201 battles
13 minutes ago, fumtu said:

First if ever there was a Balkan line, it probably would not start at T2, as at T2 there is already a destroyer generally from that area, Tatra. So T3 should be the lowest but considering that this is a WG it would probably start at T5.

 

Second, both top tier ships are problematic. I guess you put them there based on their configuration during ww2. But when Greece received them, both ships were far from their original form. For example Doxa, compared to original USS Ludlow, lost one gun and BOTH sets of torps. So it basically only had 4 guns. Miaoulis, by the time it entered Greek Navy was already modernized under FRAM II program which means, while it kept all three gun turrets, it too lost both sets of torps. So both T9 and T10, should not have a single torp. Not to mention a problem that Doxa is for some reason at T9 and above Split, which was a bigger ship. At least going from Split at T9, post war configuration of course, to Sfendoni at T10 would have much more sense. But that would require some really good gimmick(s) as it would not just mean putting a Fletcher at T10, but also a Fletcher with just one set of torps. But at least there will be some consistency at T9 and T10. And on T8 you can put a Turkish (Bristol class) DD Gaziantep, which at that time had 4 guns and also, just like Split and Sfendoni, one quintuple torpedo launcher. So there would be a nice progress but still quite questionable as all of those ships should actually be a tier lower and would need really some extra to make them viable on T8-T10, like really good heal for example. 

 

I'll make a schematic representation of that as well, so let's see what it will look like.

 

But for flotilla leader Split, there were two versions: the original version from 1939 and the one from 1958. Original version had 5 big Škoda 140 mm guns (5x1), 10 Bofors 40 mm AA guns (5x2), 6 torpedo tubes (2x3) and speed of 38 knots. It is planned that Split will replace flotilla leader Dubrovnik as the flagship of the 1st Torpedo Division. But after WW2 she was finished under new project with 4x1 127 mm guns, 10 Bofors AA guns, 1x4 Torpedo Tubes and 31,5 knots.

Is better to have 2 separate ships (Split 1939 and R11 Split) or one ship with two configurations?

 

*Original configuration of flotilla leader Split from 1939:

1079227683__RazaraSplit-Originalnidizajn.thumb.jpg.d7df3c358efed6bbbd08a03a9644ba13.jpg

 

*R11 Split from 1958:

1352146369__RazaraR11Split.thumb.jpg.6bb4f9db0faffcc7b5e5adcba7e5d37b.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
79 posts
5,201 battles
14 minutes ago, niclasknig said:

Turkish and greec ships fighting together? Are we ready for this already?  Im neither from greece nor from turkey but having spend a lot of time in these countries it feels like unification of polish and german ww2 ships in one tree.

Edit: Even worse is romania as they fought on the wrong side.

In Game we can see German, Soviet, British, Japanese and American warships fighting together against German, Soviet, British, Japanese and American warships. :cap_cool:

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 1
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
126 posts
124 battles

I would replace Nea Genea with Muavenet-i Milliye due to its historical importance in sinking HMS Goliath. Maybe shift Regele Ferdinand with Georgi Dimitrov for some Bulgarian addition and Doxa with Alp Arslan so that the tier 9-10 arent identical to that of US DD line.

 

Based on what is written in Conways, a Balkan proposal is more or less destined to become a Greco-Turkish line with some Bulgarian, Yugoslavian and Romanian flavoring. I think the addition of Holland, Spain, Poland and some reshuffling with the existing Swedish destroyers would make it more varied and interesting. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Alpha Tester
2,213 posts
8,015 battles
2 hours ago, fumtu said:

So both T9 and T10, should not have a single torp.

 

Well, WG could always make the line play similarly to the Friesland, which fits with the tech-three and provides a different playstyle than the "Swedish line". Having no torps is not a problem in itself but it definitely will be if the ships are not fit for their tier in other aspects. Having a modernised precursor to the Gearing might work though, but it depends on how the historical parameters will limit the RoF, etc.

 

On the other hand, if the Wikipedia article is to believed, the Allen M. Summer class typically carried two sets of three Mark 44 torpedoes post-modernisation which should be similar to the Pan-EU ones in terms of damage due to their light weight. I'm not sure about how the speed should be handled though, nor if this is accurate for the Miaoulis in particular. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
1,503 posts
12,445 battles

I think that a G Class DD could fit the line as far as Greek ships are concerned. Two ships, modified versions of the G class (Gallant already in game), were built for the Greek Royal Hellenic Navy (RHN) by Yarrow in the late 1930s. Here is the catch. The ships were fitted with German-made 127-millimetre (5 in) guns and 37-millimetre (1.5 in) AA guns. The number of torpedo tubes was reduced by two on these ships to compensate for the additional topweight. The installation of the armament was carried out in Greece as the Germans refused to ship the weapons to Britain. Vassilefs Georgios, named after King George I,  and Vassilissa Olga, named after Queen Olga, served with the RHN during the Greco-Italian War. I wouldn't mind having Vasilissa Olga which, until sunk in Leros on September 23, 1943, was the most successful Allied destroyer in the Mediterranean Sea; (source Wikipedia so you don't call me biased)

RHS_Vasilissa_Olga.jpg.de2e64cad82f6a398a607eb1fb2a221c.jpg

 

One more ship that could be fitted in the line is DD Hydra. The Greek Navy ordered four destroyers from the Italian shipyard Cantieri Odero in October 1929, with the design similar to contemporary Italian destroyers such as the Freccia class. The ships were 92.35 m (300 ft) long between perpendiculars, with a beam of 9.75 m (30 ft) and a draft of 3.30 m (10 ft).[2] Displacement was 1,389 long tons (1,411 t) standard and 2,050 long tons (2,080 t) full load. Three Yarrow Express boilers fed steam to two sets of Parsons geared steam turbines, with the machinery rated at 44,000 shp (33,000 kW), giving a speed of 38 kn (44 mph; 70 km/h). 630 long tons (640 t) of oil was carried, giving a range of 5,800 nmi (6,700 mi; 10,700 km) at 20 kn (23 mph; 37 km/h). Armament consisted of four 120 mm (4.7 in) Ansaldo Model 1926 guns in single mounts, with anti aircraft protection provided by three 40 mm guns. Two triple 533 mm (21 inch) torpedo tubes were fitted, while Hydra was fitted for minelaying, and had rails for 40 mines. The ship had a crew of 156. Hydra was launched at Odero's Sestri Ponente shipyard on October 21, 1931 and was commissioned by the Hellenic Navy in November 1932.[ (source: again Wikipedia...you know...the bias  thingy)

HYDRA1.jpg.e5d26449413676e34f22c1866d1f58ee.jpg

 

AT Velos (proposed as a premium) is a modernized Fletcher. We have many copy paste ships in game, I don't see why one more would hurt.

2731797.jpg.d276efb82e96caa4c25d3fa1c42df285.jpg

Three ships in a Euro-Line is fine with me. But I would buy them if they came out as premiums. LOL I would even buy a skin for the Fletcher if they put it out as Velos...

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[THESO]
Players
5,017 posts
8 hours ago, Andrejevic_ said:

I am open for your suggestions.

 

Change Serbian to Yugoslavian and u got my vote :)

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CR33D]
[CR33D]
Players
3,302 posts
30,594 battles
9 hours ago, Andrejevic_ said:

Is better to have 2 separate ships (Split 1939 and R11 Split) or one ship with two configurations?

 

If it is premium, maybe (big maybe) WG could create one ship with separate configuration. But than that would require balancing two ships in one as they were completely different configurations. So realistically, you can only get it as two separate versions.

 

7 hours ago, Kartoffelmos said:

Well, WG could always make the line play similarly to the Friesland, which fits with the tech-three and provides a different playstyle than the "Swedish line". Having no torps is not a problem in itself but it definitely will be if the ships are not fit for their tier in other aspects. Having a modernised precursor to the Gearing might work though, but it depends on how the historical parameters will limit the RoF, etc.

 

On the other hand, if the Wikipedia article is to believed, the Allen M. Summer class typically carried two sets of three Mark 44 torpedoes post-modernisation which should be similar to the Pan-EU ones in terms of damage due to their light weight. I'm not sure about how the speed should be handled though, nor if this is accurate for the Miaoulis in particular. 

 

It is easy to balance one ship, like Friesland, than to make same play style for the whole line. Doxa cold not be a T9 ship. Take Hsyenyang, which is already a meh ship, remove all torps, and put it one tier higher. Friesland is much bigger ship, and its guns have much higher RoF. And without Doxa at T9, putting a torpedoless Allen M Sumner at T10 makes no sense. Mark 44 is anti submarine torpedo.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[-TPF-]
Players
4,659 posts
19,113 battles
8 hours ago, Saltface said:

Three ships in a Euro-Line is fine with me. But I would buy them if they came out as premiums. LOL I would even buy a skin for the Fletcher if they put it out as Velos...

These are all good ideas. We've chatted on the forum about Euro DDs before and I think we came to the conclusion that the best split was North/South or North Sea/Mediterranean. If you extend the Southern line to include Spain then you've got some unique ships to fill the spaces.

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/126765-lets-talk-about-pan-europe-wide-tech-tree-possibilities/?page=2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[THIR]
Players
948 posts
4,673 battles

Nice! Their gimmick could be that they have to fight each other even when they're on the same team.

 

:Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface::Smile_trollface:

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
79 posts
5,201 battles

I made 3 new versions of the proposal. Let's see what it looks like.

Now the destroyers are branching off from the Tier 5, and some (interesting to me) lower tiers have been transferred to the premium.

 

Version A:

(Original Split from 1939 at Tier 8, finished R-11 Split at Tier 9, Bulgarian Georgi Dimitrov premium Tier 8)

2140215811__Evropskagranarazaraa(VIIA)-Balkanskapodlinija.thumb.png.003f044eb1a06dbc6449e5f931b8b520.png

 

Version B:

(Original Split from 1939 is premium Tier 8, Georgi Dimirov regular Tier 8, R-11 Split regular Tier 9)

1623648287__Evropskagranarazaraa(VIIB)-Balkanskapodlinija.thumb.png.5f91f4615d3f4be2bc8e0244ae865b3d.png

 

Version C:

(Georgi Dimitrov is regular Tier 8, Split is regular Tier 9 with two configurations - original from 1939 and finisher from 1958)

583509242__Evropskagranarazaraa(VIIC)-Balkanskapodlinija.thumb.png.104a427dcd26aaf26bcadae8dce98fee.png

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[TOXIC]
Alpha Tester
2,213 posts
8,015 battles
3 hours ago, fumtu said:

Mark 44 is anti submarine torpedo.

 

My bad, I did not check the usage (though I found the payload to be suspiciously small). Then again, WG is planning to introduce submarines, so... :Smile_trollface:

 

3 hours ago, fumtu said:

It is easy to balance one ship, like Friesland, than to make same play style for the whole line. Doxa cold not be a T9 ship. Take Hsyenyang, which is already a meh ship, remove all torps, and put it one tier higher. Friesland is much bigger ship, and its guns have much higher RoF. And without Doxa at T9, putting a torpedoless Allen M Sumner at T10 makes no sense.

 

I did not consider the rest of the line as I was just pondering the possibility, as well as not understanding the objections to the tier X earlier in the thread. But yes, if some of the ships aren't viable, the line as a whole is less realistic. Then again, there should be other candidates available considering the rather broad national range that the Pan-EU line represents. The only issue is that many of the candidates are simply clones of existing ships and thus less interesting unless you do something akin to the Orkan. Having a tech-tree Friesland which trades smoke for heal is also a possibility.

 

However, this means that a pure Balkan-focused line is less viable, unless you fill certain ships with a ton of gimmicks. Then again, I'm not really familiar with all the possible Balkan ships, so there might be alternatives that can work for each tier without excessive adjustments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[VELOS]
Players
199 posts
2,822 battles
On 1/22/2021 at 11:20 PM, ColonelPete said:

That would be a version from 71´...

It is a Gearing class destroyer, according to wikipedia it entered Greek Navy in 1971.

Screenshot_25.thumb.jpg.fd53eb975178ab24474b48f6b56bd977.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
30,973 posts
15,698 battles
16 minutes ago, GeroGompos said:

It is a Gearing class destroyer, according to wikipedia it entered Greek Navy in 1971.

Screenshot_25.thumb.jpg.fd53eb975178ab24474b48f6b56bd977.jpg

No. It is an Allen M Summer Class DD updated to Fram II Standard as explained in this thread...

 

On 1/22/2021 at 11:07 PM, fumtu said:

...Miaoulis, by the time it entered Greek Navy was already modernized under FRAM II program which means, while it kept all three gun turrets, it too lost both sets of torps. So both T9 and T10, should not have a single torp. ....

 

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[R3B3L]
Players
1,412 posts
32,651 battles
On 1/22/2021 at 11:07 PM, fumtu said:

Doxa, compared to original USS Ludlow, lost one gun and BOTH sets of torps. So it basically only had 4 guns.

 

On 1/22/2021 at 11:07 PM, fumtu said:

Miaoulis, by the time it entered Greek Navy was already modernized under FRAM II program which means, while it kept all three gun turrets, it too lost both sets of torps. So both T9 and T10, should not have a single torp.

Valid points. Except:

On 1/22/2021 at 11:07 PM, fumtu said:

considering that this is a WG

You say it! But in some cases it is ok:

 

The British TIX-DD Jutland irl never had a rear-turret, it was just some AA (I think Bofors). WG added the turret for consistency.

Anshan (Gnevny-class) in Chinese hands also had no torps, the tubes were replaced by rocket-launchers. Luckily, WG dodged history and gave us the former config with torpedos.

And in-game Huanghe is a zombie, combined British and Soviet guns which were never installed (although really planned that way).

So WG could give the DDs some "incorrect" armament to make them fit the game better.

 

Overall a interesting proposal, @Andrejevic_! Hope the guys at WG consider it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CR33D]
[CR33D]
Players
3,302 posts
30,594 battles
51 minutes ago, VIadoCro said:

The British TIX-DD Jutland irl never had a rear-turret, it was just some AA (I think Bofors). WG added the turret for consistency.

 

Jutland A hull, is representing an original concept of the Battle class, with three turrets, two twin forward and one single behind funnel. This single gun was removed on later versions, there are the plans for several ships to have a third twin turret on Y position as it is represented in the game. So Jutland B hull is not historically correct but it is based on historical design. Of ourse it was added for consitency

 

Quote

Anshan (Gnevny-class) in Chinese hands also had no torps, the tubes were replaced by rocket-launchers. Luckily, WG dodged history and gave us the former config with torpedos.

 

Actualy this is wrong. Anshan did had torpedo launchers which were later replaced with anti-ship missiles. Anshan in the game is historically correct.

 

Quote

And in-game Huanghe is a zombie, combined British and Soviet guns which were never installed (although really planned that way).

 

Huanghe "modernization" is completely WG imagination. Original modernization is considering four twin 130mm turrets, instead of 6inch ones, and without those 100mm dual purpose mounts but only light AA guns instead.

 

Quote

So WG could give the DDs some "incorrect" armament to make them fit the game better.

 

Of course WG could do thing for the sake of the game. But this would be just taking US ww2 ships and putting a Greece flag on it, while those ships have nothing with the ships that actually served in the Greece Navy but they original hulls. Putting Doxa on T9 even in its ww2 form is questionable, especially as there are better choices.

 

For example, YY is Allen M Sumner class destroyer, just as proposed Miaoulis. YY is represent with original class form, with the open bridge. First batches of Allen M Sumner class had this kind of bridge, but all those build later got closed bridge. All those with open bridge, one of which was a Hsiang Yang (later renamed to YY), also got closed bridge later. So when it was sold to RoC Navy, it was still very similar to its original form. Yes, it should look somewhat different with "upgraded" bridge and one torpedo launcher replaced with additional quad Bofors. But it was not modernized to FRAM II program before transfer, unlike to Miaoulis which is, before it joined Greek Navy. Sure WG could use original form for Miaoulis but IMO that would be wrong. Especially if they don't need to do that.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×