PQ's The CV problem - discussion with skilled players only

[st_dasa]

6 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

the thing is, now poor cv players still have the capacity to fire off some planes and feel like they are doing something, even if they are missing. same as any other class where a player can keep firing and missing if that is how they play.

 

this is just more off topic complaint about no skill peasents you dont want in your club, rather than discussion of the cause and effect / mechanics involved to improve the game play.

 

Potato CV has far more impact on the overall game than potato BB, DD or cruiser has. That's the point, not 'we good you bad''. Solution is simple; remove the spotting capacity from the CVs, and as far as I'm concerned, let them 'shoot, miss and drool whenever and however they want.

 

 

[DFens_666]

5 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

*snip*

 

Apparently, talking to you is futile

All you do is throw out insults sprinkled with stupid remarks like "Strawman" and "hypocrisy"

You have no evidence to back up any of your claims, i use stats to backup mine. So we have made-up stuff vs facts, yet you claim you are right

 

Dont bother replying anymore btw

[Fat_Maniac]

20 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

99% of CVs dont care or dont understand spotting in the first place. 

I'd tend to think it's the former. The game has condensed down to two basic objectives for most players;

 

1 - Deal damage as that is what most economic benefit in the game is awarded for.

2 - Achieve the conditions required to complete the mission / directive they are working on.

 

Anything else, especially since most missions/directives and events are time gated, is irrelevant. The vast majority complain that teams are poop and team work is dead, but ignore their own behaviours. Since the rework WG have added in more events / missions for CV's, so the self centred objectives I suggest bleed in CV play, where it feels more noticeable, because of the potential impact CV play has across the entire battle field.

 

 

 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

 

Since you wanna play the numbers game, no my friend, a week won't do. Your PR, even tho you are mainly a div player, is basically stagnating for the last 6-7 months with minimal improvement.

 

 

TL;DR  you would benefit from some modesty.

I think you do not understand how PR works out, but go ahead and provoke me or whatever makes you feel good.

I only need to do a little bit of damage farming to have the same as you.

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, SkollUlfr said:

battlecard cv: poor player was completely unable to launch planes after 3 minutes. especially if the better player could use glitches like strafe cancelling and wiggle strafing for more control.

current cv: poor player still able to launch planes until their ship is destroyed. typically meaning they can still launch planes until the end of the match.

 

It was utterly impossible to deplane even the worst CV players in just 3 minutes due to longer strike cycle times and fighter ammunition restrictions.

A poor CV player now is incapable of accomplishing anything with their planes, as such it is completely irrelevant whether they still have some to begin with resulting in the very same outcome as in RTS.

 

You are fundamentally failing to understand how both RTS and reworked CVs work quite frankly and it is one of the reasons why PQ is asking that you show qualification before discussing anything first.

WG has in fact tried to make CVs balanced, unfortunately it turns out that the CV playerbase is unwilling to play a balanced CV iteration and as a result WG chose to prioritize population over game balance.

[SkollUlfr]

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

 

Solution is simple; remove the spotting capacity from the CVs, and as far as I'm concerned, let them 'shoot, miss and drool whenever and however they want.

 

 

i dont think its that simple, but that is park of what i have said myself.

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Apparently, talking to you is futile

All you do is throw out insults sprinkled with stupid remarks like "Strawman" and "hypocrisy"

what insult? those are the literal words for your reaction to my post.

your "stats" are an off topic argument about winrate and pr

[SkollUlfr]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

It was utterly impossible to deplane even the worst CV players in just 3 minutes due to longer strike cycle times and fighter ammunition restrictions.

A poor CV player now is incapable of accomplishing anything with their planes, as such it is completely irrelevant whether they still have some to begin with resulting in the very same outcome as in RTS.

for context. i refuse to play t10, and at mid tier, it was entirely possible to strafe an opponents first flights out of the air mid map, fly to ther cv strafe the second, than mop up the half squads that launched.

 

the point you are missing, is they are still playing with their planes for whatever impact or lack of they have. where as before once deplaned, they where expluded from further play. THAT very simple change is the difference in accessibility.

[DFens_666]

9 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

what insult? those are the literal words for your reaction to my post.

your "stats" are an off topic argument about winrate. 

 

First: You have called people eunuchs in this very thread - SEVERAL times!

Second: You are making stuff up to show, how RTS CVs are different from reworked CVs. Stats are used to show you, that you are actually wrong. You claim, stats are offtopic because you dont want to hear the truth = you are delusional.

[SkollUlfr]

4 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

First: You have called people eunuchs in this very thread - SEVERAL times!

Second: You are making stuff up to show, how RTS CVs are different from reworked CVs. Stats are used to show you, that you are actually wrong. You claim, stats are offtopic because you dont want to hear the truth = you are delusional.

oh that, yes, i got fed up with a subset of players using their stats to toxic to the rest of the playerbase. fortunatly, not all players are like that. but those that are i apply that rhyme to. nothing i have said in this thread is "made up". i had one wrong assumption about damage numbers talkig to elazor and concede the point.

 

yes. this thread was started as a discussion about cv's place in the game, and a video presenting reasons why. not as another argument about pr and wr.

this is, by definition, off topic.

[DFens_666]

14 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

i had one wrong assumption about damage numbers talkig to elazor and concede the point. 

 

For some reason you said that, but you still claim the opposite?

 

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4279220208,Midway-30-01-2019-/?order=average_damage_dealt__desc&p=21

Again, this is RTS midway, most people have 40k damage or more on average. Only a handful has less than that. These are the WORST midway players

 

 

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4179605488,Midway/?order=average_damage_dealt__desc&p=60

Reworked Midway, they basicly start at 20k (except for a few). So how does being able to start planes all day long improve the odds for reworked CVs? It doesnt.

 

You can claim, that for some reason it was always a good CV vs a bad CV in RTS times - which is not true. How would these people have gotten 40k avg damage or more, if they were shut down EVERY SINGLE GAME? It is WRONG what you are claiming. There were hundreds of CV players, who had no idea how to strafe. And even if they knew, they might have botched it anyway. They couldnt shut each other down, both of them went to deal damage without losing all their planes in the process.

And what are these people doing dealing 20k damage with reworked CVs? They die against FLAK from surface ships. Where is the difference? Well easy: RTS CVs allowed them to deal damage if the opposing CV was equally bad. New CVs, the opposing CV cant stop them from dealing damage, but the ships do it themselves. They lose all their planes before the first drop, or maybe sometimes after the first drop, which results in minor damage. Even if they get a strike through, they can still fail with the drop. RTS CVs atleast had autodrop, which was not optimal, but you would still hit bad players in surface ships because they wouldnt dodge.

 

[tocqueville8]

52 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

Potato CV has far more impact on the overall game than potato BB, DD or cruiser has.

You mean positive impact, due to spotting?

 

I mean...the other day an enemy Asashio (43% WR or so, didn't even have Concealment Expert) sank 4 of our ships like it was nothing, while our equally incompetent CV (T6, tbf) did absolutely nothing, hid in the corner of the map and was brutalized by said Asashio.

 

Even a potato BB or DD can get a Dev Strike or hold back a push with the threat of torps or their sheer hp and armor, while a potato CV is going to do jack s***, as they lack any consistency in their drops and the strategic sense required to help the team where most needed.

[SkollUlfr]

15 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

For some reason you said that, but you still claim the opposite?

are you misrepresenting my claims about accessibility to playing the class, as claims about performing well in the class?

because that is the greatest benefit of doubt i can give what you are typing.

 

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

You can claim, that for some reason it was always a good CV vs a bad CV in RTS times - which is not true.

why dont you quote where i said this is always the case.

this is not a claim i made. its a parody of what i said set up by you to be easily disproven. 

 

17 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

There were hundreds of CV players, who had no idea how to strafe.

there where hundreds of cv players who called truce in order to farm damage. your point? i suppose you have facts and statistics for that too. or is that not shown in your pr/wr stats?

 

19 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

New CVs, the opposing CV cant stop them from dealing damage, but the ships do it themselves.

 

here is post from me pointing out this same problem, on the last page:

4 hours ago, SkollUlfr said:

what weegee didnt fix and where hypocritical about, among other things,

 was systems like forcing cat fighters to be despawnable by a knowing cv player, and leaving cat fighters as a limited resource for ships, (never been able to deactivate radar/sonar as a surface ship, so why the hell let cv do this?)

nurfing cat fighters on ships on the premise they werent supposed to be spotting utility, then leaving cv able to spot with summon fighters, and calling fighter spotting a success and then not properly rewarding the use of summon fighter for defending allies not being able to assign summon fighter to an ally to support a push, removing that cv vs cv counterplay and having the summon fighter be useless.

maybe try dealing with what im saying instead of your own convenient version of what im saying.

 

25 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

They lose all their planes before the first drop, or maybe sometimes after the first drop,

you might no want to post that or weegee will buff squadron hp. you are so far off topic that you are ignoring a point the video itself made.

squadron hp id set in such a way as to mostly ensure a first strike.

 

maybe go get yourself a cup of tea?

[tocqueville8]

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

Solution is simple; remove the spotting capacity from the CVs

CVs work by "democratizing" spotting, which is crucial at high tiers as DDs become more powerful.

 

Even if your team loses the DD on one flank, you're not completely blind because the CV can drop fighters or spot directly, at least for a while and at a cost (fighters for spotting are not fighters for AA cover, and spotting with planes might mean not attacking with planes).

CVs can spot all over the map, but they're worse at it than DDs: air detection radii are much smaller than surface detection radii, and in many cases they're equal to or smaller than AA ranges.

 

Without a CV, a DD disadvantage would snowball into a massive map control disadvantage much more quickly, as there would be nothing pushing back against the enemy DDs, especially at high tiers, where torpedo ranges are usually far greater than the DD's surface detection radius.

[DFens_666]

1 minute ago, tocqueville8 said:

CVs work by "democratizing" spotting, which is crucial at high tiers as DDs become more powerful.

 

Even if your team loses the DD on one flank, you're not completely blind because the CV can drop fighters or spot directly, at least for a while and at a cost (fighters for spotting are not fighters for AA cover, and spotting with planes might mean not attacking with planes).

CVs can spot all over the map, but they're worse at it than DDs: air detection radii are much smaller than surface detection radii, and in many cases they're equal to or smaller than AA ranges.

 

Without a CV, a DD disadvantage would snowball into a massive map control disadvantage much more quickly, as there would be nothing pushing back against the enemy DDs, especially at high tiers, where torpedo ranges are usually far greater than the DD's surface detection radius.

 

Thats why we have Radar, to balance it out. The way CVs can spot DDs or just outright murder them is questionable to begin with. What you describe, we had like 4 years ago before they introduced radar. The good DD would simply roflstomp over the bad DD player, and then it was GG. Radar changed that, so good DD players actually had to play differently.

But now that we have Radar , we dont need CV spotting on anything. CVs could ofc still spot on the minimap, which would give away the DDs position.

[st_dasa]

6 hours ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

I think you do not understand how PR works out, but go ahead and provoke me or whatever makes you feel good.

I only need to do a little bit of damage farming to have the same as you.

 

But i know how PR works, and no, you cannot come to my level in matter of one week, especially when playing solo. You are not that good. Numbers prove it, you are just another relatively decent player. That being said, I'm not the best player out there, not by any chance, but I guess I know where I stand and you do not. Bruh, you wanted a discussion with ''good players'', now deal with it. Next time choose wisely how to setup the intro of your topic so guys like me wont latch onto your fragile in-game wannabe unicum ego ;)

[Ysterpyp]

im definitely the top 1% of my country  im sure  , WG server location is terrible and i have 105 - 150ms ping , but i still have a 58% solo wr. 

 

[tocqueville8]

Just now, DFens_666 said:

Thats why we have Radar, to balance it out.

Indeed, but as a DD captain I find radar much more infuriating than CVs to deal with.

I can somewhat mitigate CV drops (not HE dive bombers, to be honest), or smoke up, but 10-12 km radar for 30-40s, across islands and everything, is a bit excessive imho.

[arquata2019_]

10 minuti fa, Ysterpyp ha scritto:

58% solo wr.

i have 59.70% on midway so i am better

or not?!!

[st_dasa]

3 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

CVs work by "democratizing" spotting, which is crucial at high tiers as DDs become more powerful.

 

Even if your team loses the DD on one flank, you're not completely blind because the CV can drop fighters or spot directly, at least for a while and at a cost (fighters for spotting are not fighters for AA cover, and spotting with planes might mean not attacking with planes).

CVs can spot all over the map, but they're worse at it than DDs: air detection radii are much smaller than surface detection radii, and in many cases they're equal to or smaller than AA ranges.

 

Without a CV, a DD disadvantage would snowball into a massive map control disadvantage much more quickly, as there would be nothing pushing back against the enemy DDs, especially at high tiers, where torpedo ranges are usually far greater than the DD's surface detection radius.

 

Interesting take. I don't mean that ironically.

 

However, this is truly a matter of perspective, as ''democratization'' of spotting is a two sided blade - yes, it gives a more fast paced flavor to the game. Yes, all ships can benefit from early spotting and so on. Yes, CV can counter any kind of DD advantage.

 

But in my opinion (which is again shared by most of the invested players), such ''democratized'' spotting removes more than it adds. Yes, surface spotting range is greater, but CV spotting is much faster and one squadron can literally scout the entire enemy team in matter of seconds. DDs cannot do that, unless they wanna suicide.

 

it is really about bigger picture than simple mechanic of ''A spots B''. Fast spotting removes suspension, early prediction and risky maneuvers. How can you position in your BB or a CL when you get spotted 2 mins into the game? Such mechanic then promotes camping, bow in tanking and other lazy tactics. I truly believe that CV spotting is extremely cancerous to the meta and makes the entire game more stale, brain dead and eventually less fun for anyone that invests more than two brain cells into the tactical thinking.

 

Also, lots of ppl defending CV spotting forget one really, REALLY important factor that makes it so OP and power creeps many ships; while surface spotting is basically 2D, CV spotting is 3D. It means that planes put above the one point of the map see over the islands - this is especially evident when someone shoots behind the cover and gets picked up by the fighters that are not even detected. This is a big game changer, even more than radar that can magically pierce the island cover.

 

TL;DR CV spotting practically ruins any kind of tactical gameplay, as it gives too much valuable info regarding the initial and later positioning of the ships that, by their in-game design, rely on spotting / concealment mechanics.

 

About your argument that DD advantage snowballs in later game, I'd like to see a DD getting around my defensive DM positioned near the cap. Only a CV can ruin that position, trust me. I can easily deny any flanking DD with my Zao. Don't even get me started about how strong can A. Nevsky or Petro be when denying any kind of DD push.

[MacFergus]

Again all the talk around top tier DD and CV play nobody ever considers the mid tiers and the impact of CVs have at those tiers which is apart from T4 is meh , Also people don't consider how impactful DDs are at mid tiers compared to top tier.

[st_dasa]

43 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

Again all the talk around top tier DD and CV play nobody ever considers the mid tiers and the impact of CVs have at those tiers which is apart from T4 is meh , Also people don't consider how impactful DDs are at mid tiers compared to top tier.

 

It's not our fault that mid tiers are almost dead. Blame WG for putting all of the ''premium'' effort at t8-10.

[Ysterpyp]

2 hours ago, arquata2019 said:

i have 59.70% on midway so i am better

 

top 1% player in Africa , beat that xD, btw cv sucks when i get packet loss i complety miss so its unfortunate .. rts was better in that  regard

 

 

[arquata2019_]

5 minuti fa, Ysterpyp ha scritto:

top 1% player in Africa , beat that xD

 

 

top 1% in my Room , beat that xD

[GarrusBrutus]

1 hour ago, MacFergus said:

Again all the talk around top tier DD and CV play nobody ever considers the mid tiers and the impact of CVs have at those tiers which is apart from T4 is meh , Also people don't consider how impactful DDs are at mid tiers compared to top tier.

And you are able to judge the difference in impact on tiers you have zero experience in? Interesting. 

 

[El2aZeR]

5 hours ago, SkollUlfr said:

for context. i refuse to play t10, and at mid tier, it was entirely possible to strafe an opponents first flights out of the air mid map, fly to ther cv strafe the second, than mop up the half squads that launched.

 

the point you are missing, is they are still playing with their planes for whatever impact or lack of they have. where as before once deplaned, they where expluded from further play. THAT very simple change is the difference in accessibility.

 

T6 was the only tier where you could do this as T4 and 5 completely lacked the ability to strafe and T7 already had fleet carrier reserves.

Nice of you to admit you have no idea what you're talking about. Now what makes you think you are capable of judging RTS CV play in any way, shape or form given your severe lack of experience?

 

The point you are missing is that they are completely incapable of achieving anything even if they do have planes, resulting in the same outcome as if they had no planes. I thus fail to see the difference.

 

3 hours ago, tocqueville8 said:

Without a CV, a DD disadvantage would snowball into a massive map control disadvantage much more quickly, as there would be nothing pushing back against the enemy DDs, especially at high tiers, where torpedo ranges are usually far greater than the DD's surface detection radius.

 

CVs convert a DD disadvantage much quicker, thus leading to even faster snowballing. In fact CVs can even completely overturn a DD disadvantage, making DDs as a class completely irrelevant.

And as others have stated, other methods to defeat DDs exist. CVs are completely detrimental to the game and have no role that isn't already covered.

 

1 hour ago, MacFergus said:

Again all the talk around top tier DD and CV play nobody ever considers the mid tiers and the impact of CVs have at those tiers which is apart from T4 is meh , Also people don't consider how impactful DDs are at mid tiers compared to top tier.

 

The sole reason why T6 CVs currently struggle is because of constant uptiering. If they would face their own tier on a regular basis they'd be just as overpowered and influential as on any other tier.

Other tiers do perfectly fine. More than that in fact.