PQ's The CV problem - discussion with skilled players only

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

28 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

No, I'm curious.
You were referring to my stats and claiming that I'm talking about things that I don't know of.
So its on you to show me what I was unsuitable to have an opinion of.

That being said, I doubt you will find such a quote (and why you posted that reply instead), since I deliberately avoided speaking of technical matters in this topic, instead focusing on the normative aspect.
And speaking of normative opinions, a person does not need "credentials" to have a normative opinion.

So again, what was the BS I was posting that I am too bad to discuss?

I don't understand this.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

35 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

No, I'm curious.
You were referring to my stats and claiming that I'm talking about things that I don't know of.
So its on you to show me what I was unsuitable to have an opinion of.

That being said, I doubt you will find such a quote (and why you posted that reply instead), since I deliberately avoided speaking of technical matters in this topic, instead focusing on the normative aspect.
And speaking of normative opinions, a person does not need "credentials" to have a normative opinion.

So again, what was the BS I was posting that I am too bad to discuss?

he never talked about you. He talked about the overall playerbase who fit his description 

[Hirohito]

15 minutes ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

I don't understand this.

I took issue with " When you pretend to know how the game works out while you clearly don’t, you get harsh reactions when you ignore it and keep pushing your own bs" and thought you were referring to me.
My apologies if mistaken.

[Hirohito]

8 minutes ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

he never talked about you. He talked about the overall playerbase who fit his description 

I think that's the case, yes.
My apologies.

[SkollUlfr]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

The worst achieved average damage in RTS Midway is 27,6k.

The worst achieved average damage in rework Midway is 1,7k. That's not a typo.

thats... easily explainable though.

one likely a bad torp drop who then got their planes wiped, the next being someone who couldnt hit something regardless of class, only getting a few rocket hits.

it doesnt discount what i said about battlecard cv being more player dependant.

 

but fair enough. il accept that current cv are more accessible where old cv really punished lower skill actually resulting in overall lower effectiveness. since that seems consistent. 

1 hour ago, lup3s said:

we are talking about a player-base where large population, competitive included, consider laser guided railguns to be skill, but anticipating an opponent and leading a target to be peasant game mechanics.

and unfortunately the game is set up to re-enforce this... idea, on multiple levels. where simply playing at t10 is presented as the pinnacle, and is dominated by such systems.

[Hirohito]

I've thought about this a lot over the last two years, but I think most of the CV annoyances are not necessarily due to CVs themselves, but ultimately come down to WGs binary spotting mechanism.
The binary spotting mechanism is a razor-thin edge between life and death.

A mere 100m is all it takes to go from completely invisible, to completely visible (even to the BB two mountain ranges apart, on the other side of the map) and with a big, fat red nameplate that screams "shoot me!".

For that reason alone I do consider to switch to War Thunder at times, since I really like how they solved spotting by both making it more realistic and and a lot more nuanced.
Essentially you can spot everything from the get-go, but there are no big red nameplates, and so it is up to the player to use the terrain to conceal themselves, and their eyes to look for hard-to-see targets.
And smaller targets are of course more difficult to see at long ranges, especially if they don't stick out.
Really makes me wish WG would try out more realistic modes, instead of experimenting with subs and whatnot.

in this game however, even a terrible camo like "Back 2 school" (glaring orange in contrast to the sea's blue/dark grey) is apparently making you less visible than sticking to no camo (light grey in contrast to blue/dark grey).
 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

22 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

I've thought about this a lot over the last two years, but I think most of the CV annoyances are not necessarily due to CVs themselves, but ultimately come down to WGs binary spotting mechanism.
The binary spotting mechanism is a razor-thin edge between life and death.

A mere 100m is all it takes to go from completely invisible, to completely visible (even to the BB two mountain ranges apart, on the other side of the map) and with a big, fat red nameplate that screams "shoot me!".

For that reason alone I do consider to switch to War Thunder at times, since I really like how they solved spotting by both making it more realistic and and a lot more nuanced.
Essentially you can spot everything from the get-go, but there are no big red nameplates, and so it is up to the player to use the terrain to conceal themselves, and their eyes to look for hard-to-see targets.
And smaller targets are of course more difficult to see at long ranges, especially if they don't stick out.
Really makes me wish WG would try out more realistic modes, instead of experimenting with subs and whatnot.

in this game however, even a terrible camo like "Back 2 school" (glaring orange in contrast to the sea's blue/dark grey) is apparently making you less visible than sticking to no camo (light grey in contrast to blue/dark grey).
 

I don't understand where people get this idea about spotting being the issue. It's not. The issue is that a CV player if he reads the game correctly can always completely destroy a winning move. The CV player alone without the teams help can when he recognizes the right moment severely kill the opportunity of the enemy to make a winning move all by himself. That is the problem. 

Do you think players like El2a or me depend on our team shooting at targets? For players like us there is no team. We always play as if there was no team. Therefore spotting actually is meaningless to players like us. 

 

Are there a lot being capable of that? No. But the issue is there could be. The issue is that CVs have the potential to be that destructive in the first place. In clan battles that destructive nature can be mitigated BUT ONLY when the more fun strategies are put aside. You literally have to make strats all around CVs and mostly ONLY around CVs because if you don't you are very likely to lose. If you have to pick your whole Clan lineup with First countering CV in mind.... then that tells you enough about how oppressive CVs are. 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

I don't understand where people get this idea about spotting being the issue. It's not.

 

It is when you think, that a 45% CV player is incapable of dropping you properly, but his team can demolish you upon his spotting. And because he is very speshuul,he keeps coming for you over and over.

For randoms, it would be totaly fine if they wouldnt spot. The CV player that is too good 1 out of 100 times doesnt matter anymore.

For CBs, a different solution is necessary i think...

[SkollUlfr]

24 minutes ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

 

Are there a lot being capable of that? No. But the issue is there could be. The issue is that CVs have the potential to be that destructive in the first place. In clan battles that destructive nature can be mitigated BUT ONLY when the more fun strategies are put aside. You literally have to make strats all around CVs and mostly ONLY around CVs because if you don't you are very likely to lose. If you have to pick your whole Clan lineup with First countering CV in mind.... then that tells you enough about how oppressive CVs are. 

this being a side effect of cv being at even instead of odd tiers, if they where at odd tiers both squad hp and aa could be dropped across the board allowing more nuanced balancing of strike planes and a restoration of aa specific ships that where basically eliminated by the rework.

 

add in the railguns, overmatch and sideways dispersion mechanics, and you have yourself a recipe for camping and washouts.

[COPlUM]

3 hours ago, Hirohito said:

As good players, I believe it is for the best of the community if they show different players respect regardless

I agree but not with the "regardless" part. If 39% WR 10K games or hidden profile potatoes come here to post nonsense or random negativity like

- Rant topics about bad teammates in ranked when statistically nobody on their team could ever be worse than they are

- Stupid comments about overpowered pay to win ships followed by silence if you ask them what overpowered premium ship because you would like to buy one
- Complaint about things that aren't even real because it's a game mechanic they don't understand
I'm a blunt guy, one does not exclude the other, you can be helpful to bad and/or new players asking for advice while simultaneously telling stupid potatoes they're stupid potatoes, I do both.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

1 hour ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

I don't understand where people get this idea about spotting being the issue. It's not. The issue is that a CV player if he reads the game correctly can always completely destroy a winning move. The CV player alone without the teams help can when he recognizes the right moment severely kill the opportunity of the enemy to make a winning move all by himself. That is the problem. 

Do you think players like El2a or me depend on our team shooting at targets? For players like us there is no team. We always play as if there was no team. Therefore spotting actually is meaningless to players like us. 

 

Are there a lot being capable of that? No. But the issue is there could be. The issue is that CVs have the potential to be that destructive in the first place. In clan battles that destructive nature can be mitigated BUT ONLY when the more fun strategies are put aside. You literally have to make strats all around CVs and mostly ONLY around CVs because if you don't you are very likely to lose. If you have to pick your whole Clan lineup with First countering CV in mind.... then that tells you enough about how oppressive CVs are. 

What @DFens_666said. You are somewhat dependent on your team, because if you lose points too quickly you will not be able to play the late game. This means that by striking or popping fighters near key objectives can be really powerful, since capping takes 60 seconds !!! I am sure you can carry without your team, but your team is still shooting at an otherwise invisible target...
Versus a lesser skilled carrier player the constant spotting makes it really difficult to get anything done, mostly due damage over time when you close in on a cap. Burning through DCP's and repair parties like a mad man.

 

So while I agree with you mostly, I think spotting is an issue out of many issues. 

[Hugh_Ruka]

2 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai said:

 

Do you think players like El2a or me depend on our team shooting at targets? For players like us there is no team. We always play as if there was no team. Therefore spotting actually is meaningless to players like us. 

 

That's normal Random assumption to not depend on teammates ... I doubt you would get the same result if your team hid at the back letting you do everything ....

 

The thing is, you are doing the spotting regardless because you need to know where everybody is and the team on the other hand is spotting for you. You might not be aware of it but it is so. On the other hand, a CV would be as disturbing as it is now even without any attack aircraft by simply providing vision against low detection targets that are vital to the game.

[El2aZeR]

6 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

You cannot consider a mistake as being universal in case it is not a technical thing

 

Again, what kind of mistake is irrelevant. The average playerbase will in most cases insist that even if said mistake, regardless of nature, is pointed out to them and explained in detail that it wasn't a mistake in the first place, then proceed to blame anything and everything unrelated instead. THAT is why they're typically treated with disdain, not because they make mistakes but because they refuse to acknowledge them.

 

6 hours ago, Hirohito said:

That something isn't fair is a perfectly fine argument, but not something where being a unicum with X amount of stats qualifies that opinion as being more worth than others, which was my point in relation to the OP (unless we are talking about technical matters, which mostly in this thread, isn't the case).

 

Which is of course more than right. Statements should be treated for what they're individually worth, not based on who they're coming from. Less skilled players can have great ideas, unicums can have dumb ones. We've seen that plenty.

 

6 hours ago, Hirohito said:

But I genuinely believe it doesn't help the community overall.

 

It doesn't, but again I believe it is far beyond help anyway.

 

5 hours ago, SkollUlfr said:

one likely a bad torp drop who then got their planes wiped, the next being someone who couldnt hit something regardless of class, only getting a few rocket hits.

 

Ironically that's the same player.

 

Are reworked CVs really much more accessible? With the context above it seems less so really at least in terms of required skill.

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 11 Stunden, Zuihou_Kai sagte:

We always play as if there was no team.

But... who doesn't? 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

54 minutes ago, MementoMori_6030 said:

But... who doesn't? 

Look carefully around you. This forum is full of people believing in teamplay and how well it would work Yada yada

[MementoMori_6030]

Vor 47 Minuten, Zuihou_Kai sagte:

Look carefully around you. This forum is full of people believing in teamplay and how well it would work Yada yada

I know. This is probably due to WG's false advertising. They chose not to call it "random accounts distributed into communities of fate by bad algorithms".

[SkollUlfr]

8 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Are reworked CVs really much more accessible? With the context above it seems less so really at least in terms of required skill.

battlecard cv: poor player was completely unable to launch planes after 3 minutes. especially if the better player could use glitches like strafe cancelling and wiggle strafing for more control.

current cv: poor player still able to launch planes until their ship is destroyed. typically meaning they can still launch planes until the end of the match.

 

so, yes, they are more accessible. this was the stated goal of the rework, and it worked. the remaining problem is the balance scenario ingame and other broken mechanics, and how cv fits into that.

 

imagine these forums if the dd situation was a case of, blow up all their weapons and leave them floating uselessly.

because that was the case with battlecard cv. be it a player better able to strafe their planes, or a div of aa ships vs a poorer cv player. 2 or 3 launches in, they where basically eliminated and floating.

 

what weegee didnt fix and where hypocritical about, among other things,

 was systems like forcing cat fighters to be despawnable by a knowing cv player, and leaving cat fighters as a limited resource for ships, (never been able to deactivate radar/sonar as a surface ship, so why the hell let cv do this?)

nurfing cat fighters on ships on the premise they werent supposed to be spotting utility, then leaving cv able to spot with summon fighters, and calling fighter spotting a success and then not properly rewarding the use of summon fighter for defending allies not being able to assign summon fighter to an ally to support a push, removing that cv vs cv counterplay and having the summon fighter be useless.

taking away cv (enterprise?) jets, saying they where too fast, then adding MvRs rocket planes, then nurfing every rocket plane in the game...

not introducing a radio mechanic so cv cant just sit in a corner and actually have to follow an advance.

 

then failing to deal with a problem the entire company has, of balancing high tier that turns the game into a 20 minute campfest at t10 due to other mechanics. by putting a system in that exacerbates poor balance and limited game mechanics, by forcing themselves, and the players to try and balance the need to ensure a first strike can get through the "skill" of massive squadron hp pools. the "skill" of high velocity railguns, the "skill" of laser guided shells, the "skill" of sideways dispersion ovals, and the "skill" of balistic arcs that favour sitting on an island.

 

all this mess in the game contributes to cv being the problem it is, and is completely ignored in favour of herp derp git gud.

 

as usual for this forum it turns into a dozen pages ego masterbation that has little to nothing to do with the op or the video presented for discussion anymore.

[st_dasa]

Opens thread about CVs, thread turns out to be about Win rate XD

 

I think our OP needs to enter some diplomacy courses... I mean, I will open my own thread with the treshold of participation that says ''only ppl with minimum PR 2100 can participate'' and wham bham, our LemonadeWarriorITA gets disqualified.

 

[st_dasa]

19 hours ago, OldschoolGaming_YouTube said:

Is there a difference between players that have 60% winrate from hiding behind divisions in all games or if you have 60% from pure solo play? I would say its pretty much easier to get 60 % winrate if you always play with divisionmates or perhaps even division stacking rather then just counting on you own skill in every game.

 

If you really wanna estimate a player based on his stats, yes, you should look for the discrepancy between his div and solo WR/PR. The second thing to look out for is the average tier someone plays - lower ones (like 5 - 7.9) tend to indicate some nice ol' sealclubbing. After that, check out the most played class - WR/PR can be most easily ''harvested'' by CVs, then DDs. Best players have usually an even distribution of PR between the classes. You can also check out K/D ratio and av. dmg, but those stats usually correspond with WR/PR and average tier one plays.

 

Btw. I consider everyone in the green zone or up to be a competent player. Sure, unicums perform better, but win is usually obtained if you manage to get 2-3 players to actually work together. Green ones always make do and what I like about them is that they usually play ''by the book''.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

Opens thread about CVs, thread turns out to be about Win rate XD

 

I think our OP needs to enter some diplomacy courses... I mean, I will open my own thread with the treshold of participation that says ''only ppl with minimum PR 2100 can participate'' and wham bham, our LemonadeWarriorITA gets disqualified.

 

Give me a week and Ill be there to participate 

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, SkollUlfr said:

battlecard cv: poor player was completely unable to launch planes after 3 minutes. especially if the better player could use glitches like strafe cancelling and wiggle strafing for more control.

current cv: poor player still able to launch planes until their ship is destroyed. typically meaning they can still launch planes until the end of the match.

 

In your scenario, its always a pro CV vs a noob CV in RTS days. Which is not true. We had a lot of bad CV players, who couldnt strafe or couldnt use manual attack. What do you think happened when 2 of those met each other? Right, each of them could farm some BBs in the back, getting their 60k damage. So if they met a competent enemy CV player, they probably didnt do much, resulting in an avg damage lower than 60k. But they sure did something in most games.

New CVs, they fail the flak check and deal <10k damage.

Apparently, being able to launch planes all game for basicly 0 damage is better, than dealing 60k damage atleast every other game they played...?

[st_dasa]

1 hour ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

Give me a week and Ill be there to participate 

 

Since you wanna play the numbers game, no my friend, a week won't do. Your PR, even tho you are mainly a div player, is basically stagnating for the last 6-7 months with minimal improvement.

 

 

TL;DR  you would benefit from some modesty.

[st_dasa]

17 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

It is when you think, that a 45% CV player is incapable of dropping you properly, but his team can demolish you upon his spotting. And because he is very speshuul,he keeps coming for you over and over.

For randoms, it would be totaly fine if they wouldnt spot. The CV player that is too good 1 out of 100 times doesnt matter anymore.

For CBs, a different solution is necessary i think...

 

This is my main argument against CVs. The spotting.

 

Most potatoes do not understand value of concealment, so they do not care if and when spotted since they will usually be either overextended or too far in the back.

 

CVs basically made stealthy cruisers redundant and obsolete. Zao was my favorite cruiser before the rework. Now I don't remember when was the last time I took her out.

 

CVs made flanking gameplay almost impossible to accomplish. Remember those fun Georgia, JB or Henry pushes along the flanks and surprising the enemy? Yeah, try that with Richtofen hunting you because ''yOu aRe aLoNe''.

 

CVs made area-denying cruisers totally unplayable. Wanna hold strong position with your DM behind an island? Yeah, good luck after CV leaves a stealthy fighter and then you receive 20+ shells from BBs camping across the map.

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

This is my main argument against CVs. The spotting.

 

What i dont get is, why WG wont just [edited]remove it? Or atleast try some time without it...

We all know what they want - they said it themselves: a certain amount of CV players. So apparently, if CVs couldnt spot, people would stop playing CVs? Must be the biggest joke of wows... 99% of CVs dont care or dont understand spotting in the first place. SOMETIMES you get a CV player who does nothing but spot for his team, i think we can lose them if they really dont want to play if they cant spot

[SkollUlfr]

16 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

In your scenario, its always a pro CV vs a noob CV in RTS days. Which is not true.

at best you could say im generalising. the rest of your post is strawman hypocrisy.

its also true that card cv had the issue where even small differences in player ability resulted in one sided performance.

 

the rest of your hypocritical post could be applied to any other class of ship where a hypothetical player couldnt hit anything.

backline camping bb for example.

 

the thing is, now poor cv players still have the capacity to fire off some planes and feel like they are doing something, even if they are missing. same as any other class where a player can keep firing and missing if that is how they play.

 

this is just more off topic complaint about no skill peasents you dont want in your club, rather than discussion of the cause and effect / mechanics involved to improve the game play.