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Nurun

What to do? WG breached it's own ToS?

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Hello,

 

Due to the false advertisement used by WG in the Christmas containers, on December 10, i asked for a refund of the money i spent.

To this date i'm yet to receive the refund, or any answer to the status and escalation requests i made in the ticket.

 

As stated in the ToS - Right of Withdrawal - "If you withdraw from the Purchase Contract, we shall reimburse to you all payments received from you under this Purchase Contract, including the costs of delivery,(...) without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 calendar days from the day on which we are informed about your decision to withdraw from this Purchase Contract."

As i make this post 18 calendar days have passed since i requested the refund, and that means WG failed to comply with their own Terms of Service.

 

Since i'm not getting my money or answers from WG, and considering that the ToS have been breached, what are my rights in this situation?

 

Thank you.

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2 hours ago, Nurun said:

what are my rights in this situation?

You have the right to donate more money to them, they won't thank you for it thou.

 

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3 hours ago, Nurun said:

Since i'm not getting my money or answers from WG, and considering that the ToS have been breached, what are my rights in this situation?

You have the right to contact the appropriate Cyprus consumer protection authority and initiate the ADR process. Good luck with that, though...

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5 hours ago, Nurun said:

Hello,

 

Due to the false advertisement used by WG in the Christmas containers, on December 10, i asked for a refund of the money i spent.

To this date i'm yet to receive the refund, or any answer to the status and escalation requests i made in the ticket.

 

As stated in the ToS - Right of Withdrawal - "If you withdraw from the Purchase Contract, we shall reimburse to you all payments received from you under this Purchase Contract, including the costs of delivery,(...) without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 calendar days from the day on which we are informed about your decision to withdraw from this Purchase Contract."

As i make this post 18 calendar days have passed since i requested the refund, and that means WG failed to comply with their own Terms of Service.

 

Since i'm not getting my money or answers from WG, and considering that the ToS have been breached, what are my rights in this situation?

 

Thank you.

 

It depends how much Money is Involved and how far you are willing to go.

 

But assuming that you asked for the Refund within the Timelimit and properly statet the required Data for the Refund to be Processed you have the following Options.

 

Option 1.

Request help from the Community Management aka Mr.Conway for example.

and ask them if they can check where your Ticket went and why its not progressing.

 

Option 2.

File a Written Complaint to the Company itself instead of the Online Support.

If possible ask a Lawyer for Support.

Thus demabding a Refund on a Legally Binding form.

 

Option 3.

File a Civil Lawsuit for a Refund.

Effectively giving a Lawyer the Job to Enforce your Refund for you by Suing WG in the appropriate Courts.

 

 

 

Pls be Aware that anything beyond Option 1 is likely to Lead to a Contract Termination.

Meaning that even if you get the Refund. WG will afterwards Ban your Account.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

It depends how much Money is Involved and how far you are willing to go.

 

But assuming that you asked for the Refund within the Timelimit and properly statet the required Data for the Refund to be Processed you have the following Options.

 

Option 1.

Request help from the Community Management aka Mr.Conway for example.

and ask them if they can check where your Ticket went and why its not progressing.

 

Option 2.

File a Written Complaint to the Company itself instead of the Online Support.

If possible ask a Lawyer for Support.

Thus demabding a Refund on a Legally Binding form.

 

Option 3.

File a Civil Lawsuit for a Refund.

Effectively giving a Lawyer the Job to Enforce your Refund for you by Suing WG in the appropriate Courts.

 

 

 

Pls be Aware that anything beyond Option 1 is likely to Lead to a Contract Termination.

Meaning that even if you get the Refund. WG will afterwards Ban your Account.

 

 

First of all thank you for your answer. Yet it raised a few more questions.

 

How can i request help from the Community Management?

It's not clear what other means we have to contact WG besides using the tickets.

I.e. i tried to speak with someone in the WoWS discord, but got no reply from WG staff.

 

If i'm forced to follow option 2 or 3 and it leads to a Contract Termination and my account getting banned, since it was WG breaching the ToS, are they liable to return all the money i spent in this game since the beggining?

 

Thank you very much once again!

 

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12 minutes ago, Nurun said:

First of all thank you for your answer. Yet it raised a few more questions.

 

How can i request help from the Community Management?

It's not clear what other means we have to contact WG besides using the tickets.

I.e. i tried to speak with someone in the WoWS discord, but got no reply from WG staff.

 

If i'm forced to follow option 2 or 3 and it leads to a Contract Termination and my account getting banned, since it was WG breaching the ToS, are they liable to return all the money i spent in this game since the beggining?

 

Thank you very much once again!

 

 

 

1.

well.

for example by doung this.

@MrConway

 

You think you could take a look on his Ticket and See what went wrong ?

 

2.

No.

WG Provides a Service which you already received and used.

As such any Previous Purchases will not be Refunded and Legally you also have no real Prospect of Forcing a Refund.

 

After all. If you went to a Gym or Club and after a Legal Fight with them they throw you out. You dont get the Money back for the already Spend Time in the Club or for the Stuff you bought and consumed there.

 

You winning the Refund on the last Specific thing over which you had the Legal Fight is not relevant to that.

As such anything for which you did not Demand a Refund within 14 Days of the Purchase is not going to be Returned.

 

At best you could Claim Damages. But due to the Virtual Nature of the Service. There would be no Value Returned to you.

 

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Thank you very much.

 

So i have option 1 or option 1, since in the others i would lose much more.

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1 minute ago, Nurun said:

Thank you very much.

 

So i have option 1 or option 1, since in the others i would lose much more.

 

Well. Unless its really a Big amount of Money. You would likely not get far anyways because it would be Dismissed as Trivial.

 

But to begin with. WG will usually give Refunds if the Requirements of the ToS are Met.

So just solving this Peacefully is usually the best course of Action.

 

now pls note.

WG mid December offered a General Refund on Christmas Crates including cases which normally would not meet the Requirements.

This Included the offer to basicly Manually Remove the Stuff from the Crates if it was still there.

Or reset the Account to before buying the Crates if the Stuff was already used.

 

As such the Support is likely Swamped right now.

As they not only got alot of Requests but these Requests also often Requiring alot of Manual Work from the Support.

 

So it might just be that your Ticket got lost or has not yet gotten through.

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6 hours ago, Nurun said:

Since i'm not getting my money or answers from WG, and considering that the ToS have been breached, what are my rights in this situation?

 

In my experience people tend to escalate situations too early and too extremely. The important step is that you have declared your intention to withdraw from the purchase within the legal deadline and containing all the relevant information. That's not much. All it takes is to explicitly state: "I want to withdraw from my purchase." Afterwards the period of limitation is quite long. it gives you enough time to try different options.

The first option, as already explained by @Sunleader, is an informal request to the community manager. These guys are usually nice and very interested in keeping you as a happy customer. Be polite, be nice yourself and it all should sort out within a week or two.

 

If that doesn't work, find a friend or family member with legal expertise and have him write a legal letter to Wargaming. In my experience, customer support people have little legal expertise. If they read a lot of legal paragraphs, they usually hand the ticket to a superior. The superior usually has the discretion to make low-level legal decisions. If the value of your purchase is low, say below 300€, he will usually just give in, cause they are drowning in work and you are just a nuissance. So they get rid of you quickly to focus on more important stuff. In short: Taking up their time and risking to look bad to their superiors is enough for them to give you what you demand.

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2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

now pls note.

WG mid December offered a General Refund on Christmas Crates including cases which normally would not meet the Requirements.

This Included the offer to basicly Manually Remove the Stuff from the Crates if it was still there.

Or reset the Account to before buying the Crates if the Stuff was already used.

 

As such the Support is likely Swamped right now.

As they not only got alot of Requests but these Requests also often Requiring alot of Manual Work from the Support.

 

So it might just be that your Ticket got lost or has not yet gotten through.

I did ask for the refund before the deadline set by WG and received automated answer where i was asked if i wanted a rollback or manual remove.

I asked a manual remove and got promped that it would take up to 7 days to do that.

 

I even stoped playing to make sure i wouldn't make it harder for the person removing the stuff.

 

I understand that they might be swamped, but i can't sympathise with it.

It was WG own doing and i should have my money back, as stated in Terms of Service. 

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9 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

In my experience people tend to escalate situations too early and too extremely. The important step is that you have declared your intention to withdraw from the purchase within the legal deadline and containing all the relevant information. That's not much. All it takes is to explicitly state: "I want to withdraw from my purchase." Afterwards the period of limitation is quite long. it gives you enough time to try different options.

The first option, as already explained by @Sunleader, is an informal request to the community manager. These guys are usually nice and very interested in keeping you as a happy customer. Be polite, be nice yourself and it all should sort out within a week or two.

 

If that doesn't work, find a friend or family member with legal expertise and have him write a legal letter to Wargaming. In my experience, customer support people have little legal expertise. If they read a lot of legal paragraphs, they usually hand the ticket to a superior. The superior usually has the discretion to make low-level legal decisions. If the value of your purchase is low, say below 300€, he will usually just give in, cause they are drowning in work and you are just a nuissance. So they get rid of you quickly to focus on more important stuff. In short: Taking up their time and risking to look bad to their superiors is enough for them to give you what you demand.

Thank you for your response.

 

I have no intention to escalate the sitution but i can't sit idle when my rights are not being respected.

Until i made this post, i had no answers to my situation, and to time i'm making this post it's still zero from anyone associated with WG.

It shouldnt matter if spend 1€ or 1000€, the ToS should be respected by everyone, and since WG is currently holding money that should have been returned to me some days ago, they should at least tell me what's going on.

 

I dont play the game since December 10 just to make their job easier. I should at least receive an apology and an update on why is taking so long to return my money and when it's going to be solved.

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If you read ToS, you should read everything.

Like this part.
 

Quote

Based on the aforesaid you understand that by purchasing Virtual Goods, you consent that we make available these Virtual Goods to you directly after we have accepted your order. You will lose your right of withdrawal once the Virtual Goods have been made fully available to you by us. However, your right of withdrawal is not lost if you purchase Virtual Goods that are granted to you for a certain period of time (e.g. time-limited premium memberships).


So no, you never had a right of withdrawal for santa crates. WG offering a refund is not the same as excercising your right of withdrawal and therefore the 14 days from the ToS do not apply here.
There obviously will be a limit on how long WG can take with a refund, but in this case it is not stated in the ToS.

In the end WG did not break there own ToS here.

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12 minutes ago, Nurun said:

I did ask for the refund before the deadline set by WG and received automated answer where i was asked if i wanted a rollback or manual remove.

I asked a manual remove and got promped that it would take up to 7 days to do that.

 

I even stoped playing to make sure i wouldn't make it harder for the person removing the stuff.

 

I understand that they might be swamped, but i can't sympathise with it.

It was WG own doing and i should have my money back, as stated in Terms of Service. 

 

Your Frustration is Understandable.

And as this Issue is about Retaining Trust of Paying Customers. You can assume that WG is not dragging their Feet on this on Purpose.

 

But Reality tends to be Ignorant to this.

So no matter how much WG wants to clean up the mess they made fast and without further trouble. They wont get around actually working through it.

 

Especially over Christmas they likely are understaffed too.

Because alot of the Employees also have Rights and might not be there over the Holidays etc.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, vanjupp said:

If you read ToS, you should read everything.

Like this part.
 


So no, you never had a right of withdrawal for santa crates. WG offering a refund is not the same as excercising your right of withdrawal and therefore the 14 days from the ToS do not apply here.
There obviously will be a limit on how long WG can take with a refund, but in this case it is not stated in the ToS.

In the end WG did not break there own ToS here.

When WG offers a refund, legally its giving you back the Right of Withdrawal for certain transactions.

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7 hours ago, Nurun said:

When WG offers a refund, legally its giving you back the Right of Withdrawal for certain transactions.

Not even remotely.

 

Right of withdrawal is an EU statutory policy which generally does not apply to opened boxed software or instant delivery digital software or goods.

 

Any refunds that are offered are voluntary refunds in addition to your right of withdrawal, which is almost always why they include statements like 'this does not affect your statutory right of withdrawal.'

 

Even if, linguistically, they may have the same effect (e.g. to give you the right to withdraw from a transaction,) 'right of withdrawal' is a specific concept with a specific meaning, and every random refund is not simply an extension of right of withdrawal.

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1 hour ago, Ghesthar said:

Not even remotely.

 

Right of withdrawal is an EU statutory policy which generally does not apply to opened boxed software or instant delivery digital software or goods.

 

Any refunds that are offered are voluntary refunds in addition to your right of withdrawal, which is almost always why they include statements like 'this does not affect your statutory right of withdrawal.'

 

Even if, linguistically, they may have the same effect (e.g. to give you the right to withdraw from a transaction,) 'right of withdrawal' is a specific concept with a specific meaning, and every random refund is not simply an extension of right of withdrawal.

Thank you, but if i can't use the Right of Withdrawal terms in this situation what can i? What legal terms cover a refund in WG?

 

I'm sure something should prevent a person or company from taking 100 years to make a refund and it can't be common sense. (the 100 years is an hyperbole) 

 

Edit: Take also in consideration that WG did not state in their refund announcement that "this does not affect your statutory right of withdrawal."

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@MrFingers Ok, this is the second time I'm asking.

 

Stop linking directly to these forums from reddit! Create a reddit thread and include the link from there. What's your point on this linking behavior anyway?

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2 hours ago, Nurun said:

Thank you, but if i can't use the Right of Withdrawal terms in this situation what can i? What legal terms cover a refund in WG?

 

I'm sure something should prevent a person or company from taking 100 years to make a refund and it can't be common sense. (the 100 years is an hyperbole) 

 

Edit: Take also in consideration that WG did not state in their refund announcement that "this does not affect your statutory right of withdrawal."

Because it wouldn't affect your statutory right, because it is different - it is explicitly a refund of used digital goods which would not usually be covered by a right of withdrawl.

 

Right of withdrawal is specifically designed as a 'cooling off period' for consumers to back out of an unused service, cancel an order, or return unused goods regardless of any other policies - it is a statute mandated two week return/refund policy.

 

This is a voluntary refund: something WG is not legally obliged to offer you, and therefore not something you can realistically claim damages due to. It is entirely optional on their part - a 'gesture of goodwill' would be the usual term.

 

Realistically, you have no legal recourse if they are simply 'taking too long' in your estimation with their voluntary refund. If you feel strongly enough, you might still be able to do a credit card or similar chargeback, but that is likely to have your account banned.

 

Your country may have some sort of distance selling ombudsman service or office in charge of that to which you could make a complaint, but given that instant-delivery digital goods are almost always offered without the possibility of refunds, the idea that they would take action against a company giving a voluntary refund for these products based solely on the time taken to institute that refund seems farfetched.

 

Eighteen calendar days, over a holiday period, is unlikely to be termed as unreasonable. Something closer to 20 working days as a 'normal' turnaround for even a simple refund is standard even on Amazon and similar sellers with quite high service standards.

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15 hours ago, Nurun said:

I have no intention to escalate the sitution but i can't sit idle when my rights are not being respected.

Until i made this post, i had no answers to my situation, and to time i'm making this post it's still zero from anyone associated with WG.

It shouldnt matter if spend 1€ or 1000€, the ToS should be respected by everyone, and since WG is currently holding money that should have been returned to me some days ago, they should at least tell me what's going on.

 

I wasn't talking about how things should be, but about reality. Imagine a customer support-employee handling 50 requests per day. They want to solve a ticket within 10 min. They are on a schedule. If their co-workers do more tickets, it makes them look bad. So if they can solve your case easily and at a reasonable cost, they will go for it. If a ticket goes back and forth for days that is excess time, time they don't have. So they are motivated to approve your request for withdrawal. The value of your purchase is a key factor. A simple support worker can't approve certain amounts.

Consequently, the lower the value and the more time you make them invest, the more inclined they are to fold.

 

Also note, excalating is not a criticism. You have the right to escalate. But there is only certain steps to take. Once you reached the highest level, you cannot go down without losing credibility. That would be bad, cause if the support doesn't take you serious, they won't fear consequences. It's a smooth dance, buddy.

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Let me just jump in with a quick clarification.

 

We are of course processing all refund requests as promised, but it is unfortunately taking a long time, especially for tickets in German.

 

This is due to the complexity of manually refunding the purchases, as well as the added pressure due to staff shortages on the holidays.

 

Our apologies for this, we are going as fast as we can. If you have an open ticket, rest assured we will get to you!

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4 hours ago, MrConway said:

Let me just jump in with a quick clarification.

 

We are of course processing all refund requests as promised, but it is unfortunately taking a long time, especially for tickets in German.

 

This is due to the complexity of manually refunding the purchases, as well as the added pressure due to staff shortages on the holidays.

 

Our apologies for this, we are going as fast as we can. If you have an open ticket, rest assured we will get to you!

Why dont you give everyone a free rare ship and be done with it.

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