Cpt Skill rework is a big fat cruiser nerf on top of everything else

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

I give you...

 

 

 

[DFens_666]

Well, said that the first time i saw the planned rework

I think he is missing the part of bad CV players getting stronger. The buffs to CVs are mostly benefitting bad CV players, who are too dumb to dodge flak. The gain for good CV players is not that big, alltho they also will get stronger. But i believe, its especially the noobs who will get a benfit, as they will now survive longer.

[Verblonde]

19 minutes ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

I give you...

Remarkably sound advice.

 

Luckily, I've rediscovered an enthusiasm for WOT recently (extremely improbably, they are even making fewer Richard moves than WOWS too at the moment, which has *got* to be a sign of the End Times), so I can just mess about with that until the mess that is the captain rework gets sorted out...

[HaachamaShipping]

As much as I question the need for marksman or CV buffs, the idea that a 10% reload buff for when enemies are in secondary range or DDs get buffed when unseen or seen, without mentioning the trade-offs, while drama-lamaing about cruisers getting nerfed is just dishonest. These are absolute memeworthy skills there that aren't just straight no-brainer additions that are easy to use a massively better. That DD buff when unseen? 8% speed and a reload nerf. That DD buff when seen? A concealment nerf. That BB buff with secondary range? I mean, if you want to be within 12.5 km of enemies in GK all the time (while now having 1 less hydro), cool. Meanwhile, cruisers get skills that give bonuses for enemies within their concealment range or for more enemy ships within base range than friendlies. For stuff like Belfast, Plymouth, Baltimore, cruisers with radar that matches crudely their concealment, have fun getting radared as a DD and the enemy reloads 10% faster. Stuff like Moskva and Henri got a base detection where you can make this easily accessible. Certainly not worth as much as a bit faster torps, right? And let's be real, for 90% of the cruisers, builds likely won't change. Most cruisers don't run survivability-focused builds or secondary builds. A Des Moines basically runs post-rework the same build as pre-rework, with now options to take stuff like Straight-A Artillerist or AP Cruiser if they can make it more worthwhile than what gets currently offered. Some niche ships like Perth, Huanghe or Italian cruisers can also invest in longer duration smoke.

[Yedwy]

Well I looked at the Flamu vid about it and if the skill set for CAs is what was published there oh boi am I having myself some fun with legendary Henry... 

[Panzerblitz]

I demand a research points refund for the Siegfried. The ship was kinda fun as one of the few viable secondary cruisers and now it's trash tier.

[Ocsimano18]

19 minutes ago, Panzerblitz said:

I demand a research points refund for the Siegfried. The ship was kinda fun as one of the few viable secondary cruisers and now it's trash tier.

I wonder how much damage did you do with Siegfried's secondaries, on the average? Their rate of fire is quite low, even compared to Agir. Her strength is the ultra precise BB guns that won't go away.

[Cheeky_chappie]

I guess i should wait for some new opinions on the Alaska before using my free exp on her, good thing the rework comes with 0.10.0 and she is removed in 0.10.1 

[Puffin_]

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/107

•  16.12.2020 12:00

• DEVELOPMENT BLOG

UPDATE OF COMMANDER SKILLS: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Commanders!

We would like to address several important questions and concerns you've raised about the upcoming update to the skills system.

 

Why didn't you conduct a separate test for the new commander skills?

We decided to have a closed test and also to share any planned changes with you in advance. This allowed us to get valuable feedback and understand any further necessary steps.

Everyone will get a chance to try out the updated commander skills system in the Public Test for Update 0.10.0, which is starting soon. We'll take advantage of this occasion to test the system's technical stability.

A dedicated balance test hosted on a separate server, even if it were week-long, would not yield decisive results due to the following reasons:

• A temporary test is too short a time period to try out the majority of ships and all the different possible builds for them;
• Test servers rarely generate enough motivation for serious battles, to occur: there's no risk of damaging individual stats, and winning does not influence account progress. Both of these are the most important motivators on the main server;
• Only a rather small number of players would be ready to stop activity on the main server in favor of battles on the test server, so the sample wouldn't be fully representative.

Regardless, for more precise and deep adjustments, we'll need data from the main server. After the release of 0.10.0, we'll watch player statistics and your feedback, and balance both skills and specific ships, if needed.

Why are you making such a big change, when the current system works just fine?

There are several main reasons for this change:

• Right now, the majority of ships often have only one effective build. By adding new skills and changing old ones, we want to give players a choice between different and effective builds for different playstyles. 
• Some skills are ineffective for certain ships, and others have a greater effect on some classes more than others. Splitting skill trees into classes will fix this situation and will also give more room for future improvements and opportunities for more specialized skills.
• The old interface was not very comfortable to use, so we're updating it. Additionally, we're adding quality of life improvements such as a recommendation system that will make it easier to choose skills for specific ships, and an option to dismiss unneeded commanders in exchange for Elite XP.

Why have you removed the option to retrain commanders using credits?

The option to retrain commanders using credits was removed from the interface, but now it is "built-in" to the game and does not require credits spending. the amount of XP needed for retraining was halved.

How much XP is needed to level up a commander from 19 to 21 skill points?

It will require 1,200,000 XP. Yes, it is a new stage of growth for commanders in our game: they get more simultaneous active skills, but it requires effort to unlock them all. This is the basis of our game - progression.

At the same time, it should be considered that commanders with 19 skill points are still strong in battle and do not lose their efficiency with the new system.

An additional 5% of Elite XP which will be earned by all commanders with less than the maximum amount of skill points will help in the process of leveling up.

Atlanta, Flint, Smolensk, and Colbert need additional firing range to be effective, but skills for this are not present in the new system. Why?

Yes, these ships won't be able to increase their firing range with skills. We've planned to check their efficiency after the skills system update, and then make a decision about changes directly to premium and special ships. 

However, also thanks to your comments, we've decided to increase Atlanta's basic firing range by 20%, from 11.1 to 13.3 km with the release of 0.10.0, thereby "welding" the skill into the ship. We're planning to improve Colbert's acceleration and deceleration dynamics. Flint and Smolensk don't require such a preemptive change, but we will keep a close eye on their combat statistics and implement changes if needed.

Survivability skills won't be available for cruisers, and thus you're lowering the survivability of big cruisers.

Big cruisers are distinguished from standard ones by thicker armor and bigger caliber guns, and they have a weak spot - long fires. This weakness could be bypassed by skills. We want to split big and standard cruisers in the new skills system. Big ones will have their strength in armor and shells, but fires will be their weakness, and this is how standard cruisers will be able to counter them.

Secondaries-based builds will now be weaker because you've lowered the accuracy bonus.

We don't plan to lower the efficiency of secondary-focused ships, but we understand that they'll have a shift in gameplay: if previously you could focus fire on one target with increased accuracy, now you'll be able to fight several enemies at once — on either side of your ship — by sacrificing some accuracy. In addition to this change, we're also increasing secondaries' range, so their efficiency will be improved. Besides, skills for secondary guns now require fewer skill points.

New secondary gun firing ranges (in km)

	Base range		Range with full build
Tier	German/French	Others	German/French	Others
III	4	3.2	5	4
IV	4.8	4	6	5
V	4.95	4.3	7.5	6.5
VI	5.6	4.95	8.5	7.5
VII	6.3	5.6	9.5	8.5
VIII	7.6	6.6	11.5	10
IX	7.95	6.95	12	10.5
X	8.3	7.6	12.5	11

 

If a ship's base secondary firing range was higher than specified, it won't be lowered. Also, ship detection range is a limiting factor for secondary battery range: the maximum possible secondary firing range cannot exceed the minimum possible detection range of a ship.

We will watch how the updated skills for secondaries will work, and, if they won't be effective enough, we'll take measures.

It will be impossible to build a secondaries-focused cruiser.

Yes, it is so. Right now there are just a couple of cruisers in the game that can focus on secondaries. However, for almost the whole class,  secondary-related skills won't be effective. If more cruisers like this were to be added, we would consider changes. 

You're encouraging long-range gameplay by adding the "Marksman" skill.

We understand that not all playstyles will be liked by all players, but many players prefer this type of gameplay. There are suitable ships for it and we want to support it with commander skills, as it is already done with upgrades increasing firing range and accuracy. There is a choice between different playstyles in the game: careful at long range, agressive at close range, and balanced at medium range. We don't believe that this hurts the game: choosing a playstyle does not depend on one skill, but on a player's preferences and a ship's basic parameters. Besides, we're also adding new options for aggressive builds.

Will there be a free skills reset? It takes time to try out different builds...

In order to let you comfortably try out different builds during Update 0.10.0:

• Skills reset will be free;
• Demounting upgrades will also be free;
• The cost of commander retraining will be lowered by 90% — from 500 to 50 doubloons.

Besides, to let you further experiment with commander retraining:

• Players with 8 Access Level of Service Record and higher will get 500 doubloons on the first login to the game during 0.10.0:
• There will be 6 special combat missions in 0.10.0, one for each nation with more than one full tech tree branch. The reward for completing each mission is 100 doubloons.

In total 1,100 doubloons may be obtained. This amount will be sufficient to retrain 22 commanders in 0.10.0.

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[Uglesett]

Calling it a blanket nerf to cruisers is a bit too simplistic.

 

But I am quite convinced the game is going to become even more static if the captain skill rework as it stands right now goes live. WG are giving BB players even more incentive to stay the  away from where the action is by introducing skills like Marksman and Armor Piercing.

 

Now, some cruisers like Hindy and Henry IV that have battleship-like ranges are potentially going to have a field day farming BBs with 40% increased fire duration. But a lot of other cruisers are going to become a lot less interesting to play. The supercruisers will likely have to be played more cautiously with the loss of survival skills, and shorter ranged cruisers are even less likely to have anything to shoot at. 

[Humorpalanta]

5 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Calling it a blanket nerf to cruisers is a bit too simplistic.

 

But I am quite convinced the game is going to become even more static if the captain skill rework as it stands right now goes live. WG are giving BB players even more incentive to stay the  away from where the action is by introducing skills like Marksman and Armor Piercing.

 

Now, some cruisers like Hindy and Henry IV that have battleship-like ranges are potentially going to have a field day farming BBs with 40% increased fire duration. But a lot of other cruisers are going to become a lot less interesting to play. The supercruisers will likely have to be played more cautiously with the loss of survival skills, and shorter ranged cruisers are even less likely to have anything to shoot at. 

Basically:

Huge buff for CVs. Buff for BBs. Nerf for cruisers. Nerf for DDs. Gameplay meta: Even more passive and even further away long range sniping.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

Gerade eben, Humorpalanta sagte:

Even more passive and even further away long range sniping.

Well, the good news is they seem, with these changes, to be approaching the "realism mode" that so many players used to ask for.

In a way.

[Yedwy]

17 minutes ago, Humorpalanta said:

Basically:

Huge buff for CVs. Buff for BBs. Nerf for cruisers. Nerf for DDs. Gameplay meta: Even more passive and even further away long range sniping.

Time to shift from Cruiser main with BBs close behind to CV main with BBs close behind...

[eliastion]

2 hours ago, FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor said:

I give you...

 

 

 

I don't know who wrote this but I've looked at the DD skills and the DD-related comments suggest that the author didn't really check how actual 21-point DD builds might look. Pretty sad if it actually comes from THE Flamu... Now, I don't say he's wrong about BBs, CVs and cruisers, but the misrepresentation of DD situation makes it sound like a rant of a cruiser main that looked up cruiser situation, didn't like it, looked at other classes' skills, saw a couple nice-looking ones and came to a conclusion that cruisers are getting nerfed to the ground and/or everyone else gets a buff. Shame

 

That being said, the general idea to keep all the commanders de-specced until you get a better grasp of how to spec them - yes, this is a good piece of advice.  Especially in light of the face-spitting "oh, look, you can try various builds for doublons! Why aren't you happy, you got a discount on that!"

[Puffin_]

Buff to brawling USA BB's  Massachusetts, Georgia and OHIO  

[RAYvenMP]

so the cruisers are ruined because increased fire duration and cruiser secondary builds (lol)? 

 

[Yedwy]

1 minute ago, Puffin_ said:

Buff to brawling USA BB's  Massachusetts, Georgia and OHIO  

[Puffin_]

34 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Main guns will get faster main-guns reload when brawling. Secondary guns shot on both sides.

They will probably have good enough accuracy on secondary  guns.

Range on secondary guns will not be nerfed.

And this will cost less.

Looks like a buff to me

[Verblonde]

Assuming WG go ahead with this monumental coq-eurpe,  as the French might say, I can see myself playing a lot less during the initial stages; having played paying guinea pig during the CV reework, I'm not hugely keen to repeat the experience.

 

As it stands, I think (besides not playing as much) I'll be thinking along the following lines:

• Pick a nation, three at the most, where I have a lot of premiums (of all classes) that can be run on one captain.
• Spec the captain(s) with a likely sensible build for each class, and then thrash the nuts off my premiums and - as per the original advice - wait for everyone else to sort out the meta.
• Leave every other captain zeroed - I'm damned if I'm paying money because WG have decided to go full 'Pralines & Richard' over this.

Obvious candidate nations are:

• Japan: several premiums of each of BB, cruiser, and DD that'll run on one captain build per class, plus (kind of) two CVs, both of them Kaga.
• US: ditto, only the two CVs are Saipan and Enterprise.
• Germany: ditto, only with three CVs, two of which are GZ.

That lot should give enough variety for as long as it takes for the worst of the crazy to die down, and it only touches three captains...

[lossi_2018]

too late to cry murder now, you reap what you sow

[NobleRipper]

Between all the new skills and associated systems in the rework itself, the official articles to accompany them and all the second-party commentaries and analyses commenting on both, I have to admit to being overwhelmed into losing interest. A game I play for fun should not require homework...

 

It would have been just lovely if WG had laid the groundwork for this over a longer period of time to get everyone suitably informed and used to the change, and sorted out a test-server solution that actually worked (what do they even use the test server for now anyway if none of the major changes to the game are ever included?), rather than just dumping it all on us in one go.

[Verblonde]

For some unaccountable reason, I am reminded of this site: http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/index.html

 

- for when your usual selection of swear-words just don't cut it...

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

4 hours ago, Panzerblitz said:

I demand a research points refund for the Siegfried. The ship was kinda fun as one of the few viable secondary cruisers and now it's trash tier.

Also refunds of FXP for Ägir? Of coal or dubloons for Pommern?

Hmmm, I bought Tirpitz 2 years ago, maybe I could get a refund for her, too.

And for my Scharnhorst.

And for my Odin.

 

I will call on the German government to sue WG for... for germophobia! 

[HARBINGER_OF_SKULLS]

1 hour ago, NobleSauvage said:

Between all the new skills and associated systems in the rework itself, the official articles to accompany them and all the second-party commentaries and analyses commenting on both, I have to admit to being overwhelmed into losing interest. A game I play for fun should not require homework...

And when you have done the homework and the free reskill phase is over, WG will "adjust" the whole thing according to "the data and feedback" they have collected, forcing you to scrap everything again and pay for the repair marathon.

[Humorpalanta]

Okay. Let's assume you have 400 ships. Let's assume you need 1 game/skill (this is a heavy simplification just for closing down endless possibilities which would require a supercomputer to calculate...). Let's calculate with 20 skills. (No skill ponts and such. Just forget it. Too complicated.) So you need 20 games per ship to understand it completely what is the best for you. Which is roughly correct. So you need 8000 games to make a fine decision on all your ships after this change. Let's assume a game takes up 14 minutes. That is 112000 minutes, equals to 1866 hours, that is 77 days or 11 weeks, almost 3 months to do it. Without stopping to think. Or sleep. Or pee. Or any time between the games.

 

And this is simplified so much... And didn't even mention modules...

 

Or just imagine that you need to respec all your captains and take down modules. You are not even relocating them or adding any skills or new modules. Nothing. Just swiping everything clear.

 

I have more captains than ships. It is my thing. I like to have each ship its own captain. I don't always play them with that. Might use a better captain. I just like to have it this way.

Assuming I have 400 captains and it takes 1 minute to click the free respec and another minute to take down the modules from the 400 ships. It is already 800 minutes. 33 hours. Doing nothing else just clearing everything. IT'S A LOT of my damn time WG takes away. AGAIN. I have done it at the respec of the new skill tree, at the invisifire nerf, at the CV Rework, another CV Rework stage. Honestly. WG. Put your ideas where the Sun doesn't shine. I am not even playing this game in most of my time but paying a tax to you from my life... And you cannot avoid it by paying money. You HAVE TO do it.