Removal of the Kamikaze from the game.

[cherry2blost]

OK so I bit......

 

Bought back Minekaze, now I have not played this thing since 2015.....

 

Here are my numbers for the 4 ships in question...

 

 

The main reason my Isokaze numbers are a bit skew wiff, is that we used to fail division with Tier 10's and nowadays I take the Isokaze in with tier 5 Division mates a lot and the Kamikaze in with Tier 6 Clan mates some of the time.

 

First Battle as follows.......

 

So worst case scenario for the ship, bottom tier in a NON OP Destroyer, WITH a Furious into the bargain.... hmmm this is gonna be a Challenge....

 

 

Nah not really..... similar results to those I would expect in the Kami, did struggle a bit with the torpedo angles when waiting for a Scharnhorst to rush my smoke, but oh boy that torpedo reload..... I had honestly forgotten how good this darn thing is....

 

 

Anyway didn't want to reload my Isokaze Captain, so grabbed a spare from the Reserve as follows...

 

Point is that nope nothing more, or less than I would have done in a Kami, but the Scharnhorst may not have tried to rush the smoke if he knew it was a Kami and not some Potato in a Minekaze.....

 

QED

 

As a side note, the slower torpedoes are not necessarily an issue, I have more Torpedo hits in my Sims, laying those 49 Knot 'Mines' than I do in many other Destroyers. Slow ones tend to catch people out quite a bit and anyway 60 Knots ain't exactly a Tortoise now is it?

[MacFergus]

24 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

You own stats pretty much prove already, that this is true:

 

 

I took Isokaze out for some sealclubbing aswell (not even with a 19 pointer, I think I pushed the captain to 12 or 13) and it took only a few games to reach 110k damage.

 

Those low tier IJN DDs share the same playstyle and the same strenghts. Its after all the reason, why it used to be a thing to bring a low tier IJN DD into a T10 division. (Besides the trolling ofc)

 

But to bring a new spin to the entire premium-op-remove-nerf discussion: Back then with the Cesare rumors, it was argued, that it would open Pandoras box by setting an example. Thus the community mostly argued against it. Which I agree with. This should apply here aswell. Its not even about, if a nerf is in place or not - but it would give WG an argument, to change premiums to their likeing. And no matter what the cost, we should always prevent something like that.

They can do that anyway by not touching the ship , Many ships have been effected by nerfing the mechanics of the game the Blas was great until they stopped stealth firing in effect nerfing its greatest asset its guns.

 

Ok ok Taking the Kami out of the game is a last resort and harsh people love it I get it but if they cant nerf the ship then maybe they need to buff its main rivals maybe the Nicholas or another DD but something that can counter it better it actually isn't that rare i played 2 games in tier 5 tonight both had Kimikaze R both in my team and both did ok 3 kills a piece and both finished top spot in the team they do need a better counter simply rushing them wont do and their guns are better than what you think and underrated they hit hard.

[MacFergus]

48 minutes ago, cherry2blost said:

That's why you think that the ship is OP because that 8% know exactly how to play it and do so with skill, Panache and style.....

 

[cherry2blost]

13 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

They can do that anyway by not touching the ship , Many ships have been effected by nerfing the mechanics of the game the Blas was great until they stopped stealth firing in effect nerfing its greatest asset its guns.

 

Ok ok Taking the Kami out of the game is a last resort and harsh people love it I get it but if they cant nerf the ship then maybe they need to buff its main rivals maybe the Nicholas or another DD but something that can counter it better it actually isn't that rare i played 2 games in tier 5 tonight both had Kimikaze R both in my team and both did ok 3 kills a piece and both finished top spot in the team they do need a better counter simply rushing them wont do and their guns are better than what you think and underrated they hit hard.

I am quite disappointed that I took the time to give you empirical, current, repeatable experimental data and you have no response to it

 

So I bring you back to my earlier point, that of Nerfing (or buffing) ships that perform WELL in experienced hands. 

You can't arbitrarily make that decision as a Company for several reasons, people paid for / earned these ships, it would totally imbalance the game if they began speccing ships according to player abilities and it would be open to some serious abuse. Imagine a large community (on Reddit maybe) decided that they wanted the Kremlin to gain a buff, they could easily run an operation campaign to perform badly in a particular ship with the expectation that it would be 'amended'.

 

On your next point, what exactly would you do to the Nicholas, it's already a fantastic ship in its' own right. Now if you give it a buff to counter Kamikaze trio then what happens to all the Minekaze/ Mutsuki players who now have to deal with a ship that is now more broken than the Kamikaze set?

 

Also if they buffed the Nicholas what happens to all the other ships around it in the tech tree? they will all need a buff too......

 

Ain't gonna work/fly sunshine!

 

(Seriously beginning to feel like flogging a dead horse)

[MacFergus]

1 minute ago, cherry2blost said:

So I bring you back to my earlier point, that of Nerfing (or buffing) ships that perform WELL in experienced hands. 

You can't arbitrarily make that decision as a Company for several reasons, people paid for' earned these ships, it would totally imbalance the game if they began speccing ships according to player abilities and it would be open to some serious abuse. Imagine a large community (on Reddit maybe) decided that they wanted the Kremlin to gain a buff, they could easily run an operation campaign to perform badly in a particular ship with the expectation that it would be 'amended'.

 

On your next point, what exactly would you do to the Nicholas, it's already a fantastic ship in its' own right. Now if you give it a buff to counter Kamikaze trio then what happens to all the Minekaze/ Mutsuki players who now have to deal with a ship that is now more broken than the Kamikaze set?

 

Also if they buffed the Nicholas what happens to all the other ships around it in the tech tree? they will all need a buff too......

 

Ain't gonna work/fly sunshine!

I dunno to be honest , But they do need a counter , I suppose CVs but their too thick to understand that the Kami should be N01 target , Im not sure you have any suggestions?. 

[cherry2blost]

15 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

I dunno to be honest , But they do need a counter , I suppose CVs but their too thick to understand that the Kami should be N01 target , Im not sure you have any suggestions?. 

I didn't start the thread it was your postulation that the Kamikaze Trio needed Nerfing, so it's up to you to find the solution. 

However it has been explained to you clearly and demonstrated to you, that there really is not a problem; other than your own perception of the Ship(s) in question.

 

As for taking you Seal Clubbing, my definition of Seal Clubbing is a little different to most peoples. I much prefer my Seals a bit fatter, hence where I can, I go for +3 MM as it is more of a challenge to me and really pisses off those players who still have not learned the game. So 4 v 7 and 5 v 8 is my drug of choice....

 

Or my current favourite, is taking the Honey Badger out in Division with a pair of 9's. That way I am guaranteed bottom tier (FYI Honey Badger is Cossack). 

Cossack is probably, Tier for Tier, the strongest DD in the game currently ! !

[MacFergus]

1 minute ago, cherry2blost said:

I didn't start the thread it was your postulation that the Kamikaze Trio needed Nerfing, so it's up to you to find the solution.

Sorry I had to look up Postulation.

 

Well its obvious their not going anywhere , And you cant directly touch a premium ship , Sooo ether you buff the DDs around them in that tier or you make them more detectable by air which is a game mechanic not directly linked to the Kami.

 

Anyway its getting late i have work goodnight.

[cherry2blost]

5 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

Sorry I had to look up Postulation.

 

Well its obvious they're not going anywhere , And you cant directly touch a premium ship , Sooo ether you buff the DDs around them in that tier or you make them more detectable by air which is a game mechanic not directly linked to the Kami.

 

Anyway its getting late i have work goodnight.

 

Night buddy  

[rinkula_go]

Kamikaze is basically a Minekaze.

- M has faster torp reload (37.8 vs. 42.3 s with TAE)

- K has faster torps (68 vs. 60 kts) but with 200 m worse detection

- K has 200 more hp (11100 vs. 10900)

- M turns faster, K feels a brick compared to M (2.1 vs. 2.9 s)

- M is faster (39 vs. 37.5 kts)

- K earns some more credits

- you can get M almost for free, so try it and if you don't like it, stop dreaming K is the ship for you

 

I like to play Kamikaze, so I play it. T5 is mostly low stress tier to play, only cvs counter dds hard at this tier.

 

Just when was writing this, played one round:

- 3 devastating strikes

- double strike

- kraken

- first blood

- high caliber

 

So yes, It is one of the best seal clubbing ships in game.

 

[lup3s]

16 hours ago, Ronchabale said:

Sad u didnt bring a Fujin/Kamikaze when for once the MM gods are in a good mood, excellent concealment vs tier 7 with no carriers (or radars) is fun.

 

They have the same concealment ...

[cherry2blost]

2 hours ago, lup3s said:

 

They have the same concealment ...

 

This is why so many people think they need a Kamikaze, it seems to have mythical status...

 

It's Invisible, has homing torpedoes, cannot be touched by carriers and has class leading guns.......

 

There's no educating these kind of people....

 

Says it all..........................................

 

WeeGee did wonders in their marketing, these three ships are a tour-de-force in marketing 101. Create hype, cause demand, sell crates with zero % chance of ever winning one..... So glad I don't gamble, or I would be trying to get the only ship I ever regret missing out on, as I was on a break from the game undergoing cancer treatment... Benham... Am I bitter? Not at all, it's just one of those things.

 

To paraphrase a famous advertisement.

For maximum fun there's Kamikaze, for everything else... there's Mastercard....

[COPlUM]

4 hours ago, rinkula_go said:

Kamikaze is basically a Minekaze.

- M has faster torp reload (37.8 vs. 42.3 s with TAE)

- K has faster torps (68 vs. 60 kts) but with 200 m worse detection

- K has 200 more hp (11100 vs. 10900)

- M turns faster, K feels a brick compared to M (2.1 vs. 2.9 s)

- M is faster (39 vs. 37.5 kts)

- K earns some more credits

- you can get M almost for free, so try it and if you don't like it, stop dreaming K is the ship for you

Kamikaze's torps do almost 50% more damage, some would call 50% more damage statistically relevant. There's no doubt Kamikaze is strong but it's exaggerated. It's exaggerated because people who drop down to T5 (again, why would you do this, you know there's 4 carriers in those games) - They often see a Kamikaze dominating the match. If they were running MMM they would see kamikaze isn't so much dominating because it's a kamikaze, it's dominating because the dude playing it played it 25.000 games in a row and didn't play anything else.

 

There's a niche of players who play kamikaze, nothing but kamikaze and only kamikaze. If you play 25.000 rounds in a Hipper you'd probably be good in it too, ok maybe not in a hipper but you get the point. They're just very experienced in this ship.

[COPlUM]

WG won't remove or change it even if they could, for same reason they won't remove or change belfast, smolensk or any other overperforming premium. If an overperforming premium slips through the cracks of balance testing, it's up to you to recognize this and get your creditcard before it gets removed (and/or have the restraint to sit on a large pile of steel/coal/RP until you recognize something is overperforming)

 

You may hate to see kamikazes, smolensks and belfasts, but people who have these ships were paying attention, they recognized the ships as overperformers, sat on a pile of coal/steel/rp or grabbed their creditcard to pull the trigger at exactly the right time.

 

Some people use their free xp to make their grind easier, some saved up a million of it to get alaska before it's too late.

Some people spend their coal as soon as they can, some have restraint, sit on a pile of coal until there's an opportunity (Smolensk, Georgia).

Some people buy a new iphone and travel every year while others pay off a rough mortgage for 20 years and retire at 55.

 

Hating on someone for making better decisions is what socialists do, you don't want to be one of them.

[MacFergus]

22 minutes ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

WG won't remove or change it even if they could, for same reason they won't remove or change belfast, smolensk or any other overperforming premium. If an overperforming premium slips through the cracks of balance testing, it's up to you to recognize this and get your creditcard before it gets removed (and/or have the restraint to sit on a large pile of steel/coal/RP until you recognize something is overperforming)

 

You may hate to see kamikazes, smolensks and belfasts, but people who have these ships were paying attention, they recognized the ships as overperformers, sat on a pile of coal/steel/rp or grabbed their creditcard to pull the trigger at exactly the right time.

 

Some people use their free xp to make their grind easier, some saved up a million of it to get alaska before it's too late.

Some people spend their coal as soon as they can, some have restraint, sit on a pile of coal until there's an opportunity (Smolensk, Georgia).

Some people buy a new iphone and travel every year while others pay off a rough mortgage for 20 years and retire at 55.

 

Hating on someone for making better decisions is what socialists do, you don't want to be one of them.

The Kamikaze came out at a time the Jap tech tree line had not been nerfed the Minikaze was just as good if not better than the Kamikaze when WG sold the Sisters they were worse in many cases and so people did not buy them , And then WG nerfed Jap DDs everyone wanted one but by then it was too late.

 

I don't play Jap DDs particular well even though my record in them is half decent so i would never have bought one however i have played against them numerous times to know their is very little counter to them even CVs cannot spot them unless they spend precious minutes try to locate one.

 

 

[_HomTanks_]

5 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

I don't play Jap DDs particular well even though my record in them is half decent so i would never have bought one however i have played against them numerous times to know their is very little counter to them even CVs cannot spot them unless they spend precious minutes try to locate one.

All IJN DDs have the same aerial detection of 2.5km, why are you only pointing out Kamikaze?

Also Acasta practically has the same 2.57km,  Jianwei 2.59km, Sirocco 2.7km

T-22 has even lower 2.37km now what, nerf T-22?

Or Nicholas has 2.45km which is also lower than Kamikaze, again nerf Nicholas?

[ZeMalm]

No Kami is not OP. But Gremy clearly is.... Please remove.  These are my last 2 battles to prove it:

 

 

[MacFergus]

9 minutes ago, Execute0rder66 said:

All IJN DDs have the same aerial detection of 2.5km, why are you only pointing out Kamikaze?

Also Acasta practically has the same 2.57km,  Jianwei 2.59km, Sirocco 2.7km

T-22 has even lower 2.37km now what, nerf T-22?

Or Nicholas has 2.45km which is also lower than Kamikaze, again nerf Nicholas?

Because its needs a counter people moan their is no counter to tier 4 CVs and rightly so their is no counter to a Kamikaze and if you cant nerf the ship directly then maybe WG need to nerf its detectably some how , Basically it has no weakness even the guns are quite strong and underrated and can do 2k each salvo.

 

A ship with no weakness is an unfair and p2w advantage and that goes for other ships as well but as stated most of the other rare ships have been power creeped or nerfed by the mechanics of the game. 

[COPlUM]

27 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

CVs cannot spot them unless they spend precious minutes try to locate one.

Conceal on them is identical to the tech tree sister ship, if this makes them OP, minekaze is OP.

[_HomTanks_]

1 minute ago, MacFergus said:

Because its needs a counter people moan their is no counter to tier 4 CVs and rightly so their is no counter to a Kamikaze and if you cant nerf the ship directly then maybe WG need to nerf its detectably some how , Basically it has no weakness even the guns are quite strong and underrated and can do 2k each salvo.

 

A ship with no weakness is an unfair and p2w advantage and that goes for other ships as well but as stated most of the other rare ships have been power creeped or nerfed by the mechanics of the game. 

 

You ignored my questions. If a T4 CV has no counter to Kamikaze, it has no counter to T-22, Nicholas, Acasta, Mutsuki, Minekaze, Jianwei, etc. either which means according to you, Tier 4 CVs cannot counter DDs. To say tier 4 CVs can't counter DDs shows lack of CV skills because any okayish CV player can counter any ship including DDs. 

 

Also saying a ship not having any weaknesses again shows lack of game and ship knowledge. The counters have been presented to you previously in many posts. I am not sure if you read them and didn't understand or if you didn't read the posts at all.

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

if you cant nerf the ship directly then maybe WG need to nerf its detectably some how

 

The only way to do that would be to nerf IJN DD or DD detectability in general globally.

This will inevitably hit a lot of (IJN) DDs a lot harder than the Kamikaze, thus severely disrupting game balance.

 

9 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

Basically it has no weakness

 

It has plenty. All of them are listed in this thread.

[Saltface]

1 minute ago, Execute0rder66 said:

Also saying a ship not having any weaknesses again shows lack of game and ship knowledge. The counters have been presented to you previously in many posts. I am not sure if you read them and didn't understand or if you didn't read the posts at all.

10 minutes ago, MacFergus said:

so their is no counter to a Kamikaze

The OP presented a video by Robin as argument that Kamikaze is broken and overpowered. The same video at 2.45 min is clear. "Lets leave because the T22 can easily outgun me" and Robin just bailed out and left. Later in the same video at 11.10 we find the following statement by Robin "The Clemson is terrifying" 

I am amazed that a player that clearly is Super Unicum and sails the most OP ship of them all (according to MacFergus) just wants to bail out from a measly T22 and a TIV Clemson. T22 and Clemson must be removed because they are OPer (LOL) to Kamikaze.

Once again: It is so easy to counter a Kamikaze. Simply our friend the OP does not know how to do it and wants the ship removed. On the same note I wonder if our friend the OP really watched the video he posted. MacFergus also proposed a nerf to all DDs by nerfing DD mechanics so that the Kamikaze gets nerfed as well. Really? Not to mention lamenting the fact that stealth firing was removed from the game. I wonder why it is OK to stealth fire and it is not OK to stealth torp? 

 

Once again, Happy Crusading

 

[Shaka_D]

On 12/9/2020 at 9:29 PM, MacFergus said:

The three sisters in my view are thee most op ships in the game with the CV discussion and balance issue at hand then surely out of all the rare ships these 3 should get the chop , It is unfair they even exist a relic from the golden age of Japanese DDs which were balanced simply because they dominated every game.

The refusal by WG to remove them and tease people into spending cash to obtain them in loot boxes goes to show how much they really care for balance  they simply have no counter even a CV cannot spot them unless flying directly over them , Their fast reload time on tops at such a low tier means they can decimate a team within minutes without being spotted once.

What are people views on this , Do you enjoy seal clubbing with this ship or deep down do you think yes they are completely unfair , I understand a lot of veterans play at higher tiers but as a mid tier player these ship have always been a edited* on the game.

You want to hear a joke or perhaps rather call me a joke after you heard what I am about to say? Lower tier games don't interest me, they're low rewarded and perhaps only suitable when pursuing a mission relating specifically to lower tiers (whenever that is).

 

And here is the funny thing....as part of the recent 'satangate' crate rigging scandal, before my reset and refund I had actually got both the kamikaze and fujin in two of the 20ish crates bought. I already have the kamkaze R, so why on earth would I want the other two? In short, I don't and didn't so gave them up for the reset / refund and haven't played a game since the information about the rigging broke.

 

I spent my money on a new xbox (at my age) by waking up at 3:30am after intel suggested Argos was adding stock early and have dabbled with a few titles, and am even enjoying fishing planet...spent some money there. No more for WG. That bridge is burned.

 

Moral of the story? Nothing really, just a rambling old soul talking poop.

[cherry2blost]

3 hours ago, MacFergus said:

Because its needs a counter people moan their is no counter to tier 4 CVs and rightly so their is no counter to a Kamikaze and if you cant nerf the ship directly then maybe WG need to nerf its detectably some how , Basically it has no weakness even the guns are quite strong and underrated and can do 2k each salvo.

 

A ship with no weakness is an unfair and p2w advantage and that goes for other ships as well but as stated most of the other rare ships have been power creeped or nerfed by the mechanics of the game. 

Oh my Lord, he is still beating that poor old nag.......

 

Minekaze is obviously OP as hell please nerf it....

3 hours ago, NikolayKuznetsov said:

Conceal on them is identical to the tech tree sister ship, if this makes them OP, minekaze is OP.

Like I said Minekaze is OP pls Nerf WeeGee..... MacFartface you really need to actually PLAY the Minekaze....... it's a great ship equally as good as Kamikaze and in some ways slightly better, top speed is better agility is better, acceleration is better too.....

[GarrusBrutus]

4 minutes ago, cherry2blost said:

MacFartface

C'mon dude..... ಠ_ಠ

[MacFergus]

9 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

C'mon dude..... ಠ_ಠ

Its ok he's from London all mouth no trousers .