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ST 0.9.11, changes to Italian Battleships

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I would have preferred more changes to SAP.

 

Armor changes are hard to judge without playing the ships yourself.

I hope they are as tough as Roma, otherwise they would be a step backwards.

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Fix the stupid SAP Alpha, reload and accuracy first then you can work out if they are too tanky or not based on their offensive performance... At the rate it is going this is another line that I was looking forward to ruined just like the HE slinging RN BBs...

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Well from what I heard the armor was maybe a bit absurd, but these changes are frightening. That's a lot of overmatchable 25mm plates being thrown around.

That could easily swing the pendulum from nigh impossible to citadel towards citadel piňatas due to casually catching BB AP from unexpected angles.

 

Otherwise see above: It's SAP that needs rebalancing first (but not gonna happen since "gimmicks are life, all else is secondary").

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Quality Poster, In AlfaTesters
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Changing the plating to 25mm does make the angling mostly negligible, but the thickness still counts. Essentially rendering the shape of the armor scheme interior obsolete.

image.thumb.png.cfc0d5e3d733ca426bd515c8776b4021.png

 

On a path of most resistance a shell would have had to pass through

400mm Belt -> 40mm citadel slope (turtleback) angled at 70° which is effectively 117mm -> 70mm Citadel belt

A shell arriving at 0° would have to penetrate ((400@0°=400)+(40@20°=117)+(70@0°=70)) = 587mm of armor but would be ricocheted by the 40mm slope.

A shell arriving at 15° would have to penetrate ((400@15°=414)+(40@35°=70)+(70@15°=73)) =  557mm of armor

 

With this change those values change to;

((375@0°=375)+(25@20°=73)+(50@0°=50)) = 498mm with no longer a possibility for the sloped plates to ricochet shell >356mm calibre.

((375@15°=388)+(25@35°=44)+(50@15°=52)) =  484mm

Yamato 410mm belt angled at 20° struck at 15° = 500mm

Montana 409mm belt is angled at 18° at best, if struck at 15° = 487mm

 

So the change, for CC at least, reduces the penetration requirement down to a similar level to that of Yamato and Montana. The citadel is still entirely submerged and very narrow.

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12 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Fix the stupid SAP Alpha, reload and accuracy first then you can work out if they are too tanky or not based on their offensive performance... At the rate it is going this is another line that I was looking forward to ruined just like the HE slinging RN BBs...

What about them feels ruined to you ? Their AP performance ?

@_FrostVortex_ Please make a functional line and not another debacle like the US BB split, at least give them heavy AA or so. 

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5 hours ago, rimmer_the said:

What about them feels ruined to you ? Their AP performance ?

@_FrostVortex_ Please make a functional line and not another debacle like the US BB split, at least give them heavy AA or so. 

There is nothing Wrong with the AP as the Roma is fine with the same AP shells, except you would most likely only use SAP all game cause;

  1. I can't over pen
  2. It does more damage
  3. Because WG have balanced the SAP with even worse sigma than Roma you cannot reliably get citadels when shooting at any range and thus no matter what SAP will be more reliable with more damage in all situations.

My issue is that this line will be RN BBs 2.0 where WG have balanced the really stupidly strong easy to use ammunition type HE/SAP with RNG thus making it almost pointless to ever use AP as to do more damage with AP you need to be able to hit reliably where you aim, this basically turns the ships into 1 ammunition type for all situations which is not good for the game. This way of balancing is not fun for all involved, players playing the ship get frustrated that they can't hit stationary targets, while those on the receiving end receive large amounts of damage which you can't angle too when RNG favours the enemy.

 

What needs to be done is the SAP alpha reduced to be somewhere between the AP alpha and the relative HE alpha, can use Roma as a guide on how much that would be, then the sigma and reload can be put back up to a reasonable level where it is fun for all, and they might not even need the 10% damage rule to SAP on DDs in the end.

 

This is what also should have been done to the Italian cruisers but WG just love gimmicks that are bad for the game...

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I have been looking at Community Contributers testing Italian Battleships  on Youtube, many months ago.

I have studied the pecularities of Italian battleships on the official wiki page already.

" I have seen attack ships on fire  off  the shores of Orion...

  I watched C-beams glitter in the dark  at the Tannhauser gate..."

 

Will we ever see the introduction of Italian Battleships in this game in our lifetime ?

 

Or will they be forgotten in time,  because WG keeps on  ""reworking" things that are not broken in the first place ( captian skills, etc), and that none of the players asked for being "'reworked" in the second place ? 

 

In other words, can you please stop talking about SAP or armor belts being too much "'this"' or too much "that ?

Can you show some real development by just launching  a new tech tree ?  Just so we can sail the blodddy ships... ?

Waiting for any Italian cruiser techtree for 4 years was already long enough for veteran players. Many veteran players of this game are running out of patience with the "'development progress" of this company.  (Not to mention the lack of variety in operations/scenarios).

 

Is there an ETA when the patch with Italian battleships will be  launched on the live server for the average human player ?

@Sehales, @Crysantos

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We cannot share any release dates. Please wait for an official announcement on the portal @Garfield4

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2 hours ago, Garfield4 said:

Is there an ETA when the patch with Italian battleships will be  launched on the live server for the average human player ?

@Sehales, @Crysantos

You can already fight them on the live server. Take a guess when you can sail them yourself.

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6 hours ago, Garfield4 said:

In other words, can you please stop talking about SAP or armor belts being too much "'this"' or too much "that ?

Can you show some real development by just launching  a new tech tree ?  Just so we can sail the blodddy ships... ?

Waiting for any Italian cruiser techtree for 4 years was already long enough for veteran players. Many veteran players of this game are running out of patience with the "'development progress" of this company.  (Not to mention the lack of variety in operations/scenarios).

We need to talk about the big mistake that is SAP, I also waited 4 years for the Italian Cruisers just like you, however I was left massively disappointed with their gimmick ridden addition in the game and don't like playing them at all, the opposite of how I feel when playing the first Italian premium ship the Duca D'Aosta which is one of my favourite ships to play even now.

 

Do we want the Italian BBs to turn into a Royal Navy BB line Mk2 (Another Line that I was excited to see added to the game but hate due to the designed gimmick) where instead of HE spammers they will be SAP spammers, where the SAP Alpha potential is held inline with RNG on the main guns, which will be not fun for all involved.

 

No reason to have the line rushed into the game only for you to only like looking at them in port cause Italian ships are very pretty but never wanting to take them into battle cause you hate the thought of even playing them, this is what happened to my Italian Cruisers... We need to voice our criticisms now or it will be not pointed out to WG, mind you with WG current track record they will ignore all feed back anyway...

 

All having these SAP focused ships will just make them perform constantly well with the 40% WR part of the player base that can't aim as the dispersion will be so bad and the fact that you are essentially slinging a 'HE' shell all game and still end up with decent damage numbers, however for those of us that know how to play and will switch to AP when it would in theory be correct to do so will just end up disappointed as the shells fly everywhere but where you aimed resulting in a lower amount of damage than if you had just stuck to SAP, just like the Royal Navy BBs with their HE.

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33 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

We need to talk about the big mistake that is SAP, I also waited 4 years for the Italian Cruisers just like you, however I was left massively disappointed with their gimmick ridden addition in the game and don't like playing them at all, the opposite of how I feel when playing the first Italian premium ship the Duca D'Aosta which is one of my favourite ships to play even now.

 

That explains our different view on SAP I suppose, because I only played the techtree Italian cruisers.  I found them refreshingly different in playstyle compared to their RN, KM, JN and RU counterparts.  The introducting of SAP felt fun to me.  On top of that fragile ships , with running smoke and long range torps.   Normal AP would have been just "nah, same old, same old" for me.

 

Maybe you were "spoiled" a bit (just joking) with the DucaD'Aosta :Smile_Default:

Thats why Im hoping new ITA techtree battleship line will spice up the game a bit after 5 years.

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10 minutes ago, Garfield4 said:

That explains our different view on SAP I suppose, because I only played the techtree Italian cruisers.  I found them refreshingly different in playstyle compared to their RN, KM, JN and RU counterparts.  The introducting of SAP felt fun to me.  On top of that fragile ships , with running smoke and long range torps.   Normal AP would have been just "nah, same old, same old" for me.

 

Maybe you were "spoiled" a bit (just joking) with the DucaD'Aosta :Smile_Default:

Thats why Im hoping new ITA techtree battleship line will spice up the game a bit after 5 years.

To me they are ships with at low tier 2 types of unreliable ammunition as you can just go bow in and the damage drops to 0 meanwhile at high tiers you sometimes get 15k SAP hits and sometimes do nothing and then have to wait another 20secs to have another go at getting disappointed. They all have terrible stealth, crap Rudders and from tier 6-9 the largest citadels of any cruiser in the game with almost no protection. They have no Hydro so it is good to take Vigilance, except cruisers can't have that skill in the rework, which also means you can't charge ships in smoke as you can only Proximity spot them. While the smoke gimmick is something I thought would be cool on the Italian cruisers as "Close range Hit and run ships where the smoke is used to basically turn out and that is all, instead they got implemented in a way where you constantly want to be frugal with them as you get so few charges, would have preferred only a 10 sec duration Max but like double the charges. Anyway even if they had good stealth and a more usable smoke screen you don't want to be in close anyway cause why would you, the only reason to get close is to use AP, but the AP does less damage than the SAP, so unlike all other cruisers in the game (Bar the RN CLs that only have AP) there is no reason to use AP on broadsides, unless it is a cruiser at close range and you can guarantee a few citadels, otherwise you just do less damage.

 

As for the Duca, I remember when it first came out almost all the CCs referred to it as a very MEH ship and not recommended because poor range and poor HE DPM, if played right you can get lots of damage on ships using AP at clos range whilst having a reliable HE that doesn't bounce of when AP is not an option you know not a 1 trick pony... also having spaced armour and a great rudder shift with decent stealth helps...

 

As for the Italian  BBs before the Cruisers were even in the game I thought a short fuse kind of AP shell (SAP) would have been good for them based on experience playing the Roma where the biggest issue you face is over-penning broadside cruisers at close-ish ranges, however, it should never do more damage than the AP shell that the ship is equipped with otherwise it would be a 1 ammunition option for every situation kind of ship and that is what we are getting and to balance this out they are increasing the reload (We all enjoy our 40 sec reload US BBs don't we...) and making the dispersion really bad like the RN BB tech tree ships, this means for me anyway they would be unfun to play as good aim is not rewarded and more often than not the SAP will do more damage to any target than the AP ever will, and a pain to face as you cannot easily angle to these 40k SAP Alpha strikes...

 

At least the art department have done a decent job, well except for the third Roma copy-paste...

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12 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

We need to talk about the big mistake that is SAP, I also waited 4 years for the Italian Cruisers just like you, however I was left massively disappointed with their gimmick ridden addition in the game and don't like playing them at all, the opposite of how I feel when playing the first Italian premium ship the Duca D'Aosta which is one of my favourite ships to play even now.

 

Do we want the Italian BBs to turn into a Royal Navy BB line Mk2 (Another Line that I was excited to see added to the game but hate due to the designed gimmick) where instead of HE spammers they will be SAP spammers, where the SAP Alpha potential is held inline with RNG on the main guns, which will be not fun for all involved.

 

No reason to have the line rushed into the game only for you to only like looking at them in port cause Italian ships are very pretty but never wanting to take them into battle cause you hate the thought of even playing them, this is what happened to my Italian Cruisers... We need to voice our criticisms now or it will be not pointed out to WG, mind you with WG current track record they will ignore all feed back anyway...

 

All having these SAP focused ships will just make them perform constantly well with the 40% WR part of the player base that can't aim as the dispersion will be so bad and the fact that you are essentially slinging a 'HE' shell all game and still end up with decent damage numbers, however for those of us that know how to play and will switch to AP when it would in theory be correct to do so will just end up disappointed as the shells fly everywhere but where you aimed resulting in a lower amount of damage than if you had just stuck to SAP, just like the Royal Navy BBs with their HE.

I would say that I represent a big part of the player base (players that are suffering from hubris and aren’t that good), but I would say that the new RM BB line will probably be quite boring since you already have a sniper line, brawler line, all round line etc (ie that there isn’t much left that a new line can bring except for some gimmicks (SAP and smoke for example(which should be good in the hands of an experienced player but absolutely terrible in a bad players hands(which can be said for almost all ships).

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I absolutely agree with Chaos_Umbra's latest posts, with one tiny nitpick:

23 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Do we want the Italian BBs to turn into a Royal Navy BB line Mk2 (Another Line that I was excited to see added to the game but hate due to the designed gimmick) where instead of HE spammers they will be SAP spammers, where the SAP Alpha potential is held inline with RNG on the main guns, which will be not fun for all involved.

There is nothing "to turn" ITA BBs into those one dimensional spammers, they already are just that. And based on latest WG decisions, all is secondary to the gimmick. Every other aspect of a ship can and will change in any unreasonable and crazy way as long as the gimmick survives.

 

So, let's start welcoming our new gorgeous port queens, ITA BBs.

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