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Ocsimano18

Pinnacle of Boredom: Watching Competitive Play

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I don't know how others feel, but I get bored by watching streams of competitive championships, like KotS and the Verizon one. The gameplay is so static that even the best moderators cannot make it interesting. The biggest highlight is some DD doing some magical ASWD hacks. It seem to bring together the most boring elements of tier 10 play, like camping, long range focus fire, etc. Do you agree with me, and if yes, do you see any way to make these games more entertaining to watch? I think it would be necessary to progress further.

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Then why are you watching? 

But seriously, wows is more like a game of chess. If you aren't aware of all the intricacies that are happening then I can understand you perceive the gameplay as boring. Its a battle of vision and map control before players make their plays. The "action" often happens in the final moments of the game, when teams are forced to make moves. 

 

If you want fast paced action, I'd suggest watching fortnite. 

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1 minute ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Then why are you watching? 

But seriously, wows is more like a game of chess. If you aren't aware of all the intricacies that are happening then I can understand you perceive the gameplay as boring. Its a battle of vision and map control before players make their plays. The "action" often happens in the final moments of the game, when teams are forced to make moves. 

 

If you want fast paced action, I'd suggest watching fortnite. 

This is an easy answer. I spend more time watching warships streamers than I actually play, so I can definitely enjoy watching the game. Also, I came from strategy gaming, so it's not that I don't enjoy strategy. If guys like me don't enjoy watching these tournament then the issue is not on our side.

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1 minute ago, Ocsimano18 said:

This is an easy answer. I spend more time watching warships streamers than I actually play, so I can definitely enjoy watching the game. Also, I came from strategy gaming, so it's not that I don't enjoy strategy. If guys like me don't enjoy watching these tournament then the issue is not on our side.

Uhm. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone doesn't? 

I bet you all my premiums the majority of watchers enjoy it? 

 

I can't even get behind what you are trying to say with "issue is not on our side". Of course it is. It's an issue of taste. If you don't like it then "You" don't like it it's not the tournaments or the players problem. 

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Yeah I don't watch tournnaments for the same reason I quickly stopped playing Clan Battles. Utterly boring :(

Nope, I don't see anything that can be done to remedy this. It's the nature of the game plus the nature of the competetive brain playing a game that isn't designed to be competetive in a fun and engaging way.

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6 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

This is an easy answer. I spend more time watching warships streamers than I actually play, so I can definitely enjoy watching the game. Also, I came from strategy gaming, so it's not that I don't enjoy strategy. If guys like me don't enjoy watching these tournament then the issue is not on our side.

Because the "issue" (as far as you can call it an issue) is simple. You do not like that kind of gameplay, which is fine. But apparently others do. 

Don't know if you have watched the Warships Masters Invitational tournament this weekend? But that was everything but boring. Lots of really exciting and close games. 

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I really enjoy watching the tournaments. How miniscule details can make a huge difference and how often games end on the last few seconds is what makes it interesting. I do like Snooker too though, so i can kinda understand how that is not something everyone can enjoy or cherish :)

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I find Tennis so utterly boring, I usually fall asleep within 5 mins. Think about it. 2 Persons. 1 Ball. back and forth. Nothing ever changes.

Lets cancel Tennis.

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47 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Then why are you watching? 

But seriously, wows is more like a game of chess. If you aren't aware of all the intricacies that are happening then I can understand you perceive the gameplay as boring. Its a battle of vision and map control before players make their plays. The "action" often happens in the final moments of the game, when teams are forced to make moves. 

 

If you want fast paced action, I'd suggest watching fortnite. 

I do like a good game of chess, but I think the analogy is somewhat flawed in this case.
In competitive play we see the gameplay focus on very solid and static comps these days, which in chess would translate to both players being positional players (like Karpov) playing somewhat passive but very solid openings.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the games were often not that spectacular.
Then you had players like Mikhail Tal, who would often sacrifice minor pieces (and major pieces too!) to gain an imbalanced position which he could then exploit tactically, which overall made for great entertainment.
And this is in a game with both players having access to perfect information! (Games where both players can see everything and thus have perfect information over what's going on on the board).


WoWs has the advantage of being a game with imperfect information, which in theory could make it more interesting if teams could more broadly rely on stealth and trickery.
Sadly, there is currently less and less of this happening, mostly cemented by the overabundance of radar ships (esp. Soviet ones), which are hard to punish outright and can provide critical information about the map at critical timings.
RPF is also a part of the problem here, since any team worth their salt can (rather early on) triangulate ship locations and often deduce whether or not a heavy flanking maneuver under stealth is being attempted, and then verify that hunch with a 12 km 360 degree sweep of the area.

Thus we get today's meta, where we see tons of Petros and Stalingrads accross all levels of play (and currently with CVs in clan battles, which further exacerbates the problem), as they have that important 12 km map sweep available to them.

Also related to the chess analogy (and since this game is approaching a more "perfect information game" than it used to be before radar sweeps), we still rarely see "sacrifices to gain an imbalanced situation".
That's mostly because it is easier to lock down a position than push through it (with sacrificed ships), and ships like Petro/SG exacerbate that since they are perfect for quickly punishing any ship that is unangled, while themselves being very tanky from the front.
Since there are no proper ship restrictions in competitive play (apart from a limited number of BBs and CVs denied outright in the last KOTS), this translates to a chess game where players can choose the pieces they want to use.
If Petro/SG are the Rooks of chess, why would anyone choose more than a token quantity of Knights or Bishops, when it's obvious that (in most cases) Rooks are superior?
Also related to chess, this is similar to playing a very solid positional game, where tactical exploits are not allowed at all.
Had this been like chess though, we could still expect teams to willingly "sacrifice" ships in a suicidal push against the enemy, where the goal was to cause disruptions in the position that could be further exploited with tactical advantages.
Mostly though, we don't see that in KOTS. (Not saying it doesn't happen ever, but it's rather rare and the lineups and general strategies reflect this).

12 km radar, very high tankiness and RPF really puts a dent in the viability of using the "Knights and Bishops" of ships, and creates a game where an overabundance of Rooks causes the game to become too positional (in chess terms).

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6 minutes ago, Hirohito said:

Mostly though, we don't see that in KOTS. (Not saying it doesn't happen ever, but it's rather rare and the lineups and general strategies reflect this).

Hence my earlier question if people have watched the WMI tournament this weekend? The format of that tournament did a great job in preventing static lineups, simply because it prevented teams to pick multiple of the same ships by using a points system. (fe. Stalingrad = 10 points and a zao = 3 points). So now you saw the best players using suboptimal ships, such as Khabarovsk. 

 

Honestly, super fun to watch. 

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46 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

If guys like me don't enjoy watching these tournament then the issue is not on our side.

No, it's a you thing. As your opinion is personal to, well. You. 

 

39 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

the Warships Masters Invitational tournament this weekend? But that was everything but boring. Lots of really exciting and close games.

My NA boys had 3 super close matches with VOR. Very entertaining to watch. 

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45 minutes ago, Ocsimano18 said:

This is an easy answer. I spend more time watching warships streamers than I actually play, so I can definitely enjoy watching the game. Also, I came from strategy gaming, so it's not that I don't enjoy strategy. If guys like me don't enjoy watching these tournament then the issue is not on our side.

Agree, I like strategy games myself (like chess for instance), and this is not owing up to how interesting they can be.
Current KOTS has usually devolved into static gameplay, dominated by long range punishing (mostly Soviet) ships that capitalize on a very strong defender's advantage, which can heavily punish offensive play.

It'd be fun seeing more DDs and stealthy cruisers like Zao (or fast flankers like Henri or Khaba) which could allow for some interesting offensive plays, but they are currently being left underused in today's comps.

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3 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Hence my earlier question if people have watched the WMI tournament this weekend? The format of that tournament did a great job in preventing static lineups, simply because it prevented teams to pick multiple of the same ships by using a points system. (fe. Stalingrad = 10 points and a zao = 3 points). So now you saw the best players using suboptimal ships, such as Khabarovsk. 

 

Honestly, super fun to watch. 

I think that is a good way to go about it, in order to prevent every team choosing "Rooks" (if comparing to chess).
I'd love to see it in CBs as well.

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I don't watch much, usually any little watching I do is for analytical purposes.

Not because I find it boring, but because I prefer to do other things with my time. Watching other people play video games(or non-combat sports for that matter) is not my thing.

An exception to this would be watching horror gaming on Youtube. This, I like doing. 

 

Also, my internet is too :etc_swear: to watch streams most of the time. 

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I don't play competitive much.. 

But I host and stream tournaments lately.. 

And for me, and our viewers, they are amazingly fun to watch.. 

to read the map.. to see the moves before the enemy... 

the anticipation, the risk players taking... 

 

And yes mate, the issue is on you.. you don't like it.. it is completely understandable.. 

so don't watch it.. look it like a TV show.. you watch is, you don't like it.. you don't tell the creators to change it..

you basically stop watching :) 

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1 hour ago, ForlornSailor said:

I find Tennis so utterly boring, I usually fall asleep within 5 mins. Think about it. 2 Persons. 1 Ball. back and forth. Nothing ever changes.

Lets cancel Tennis.

And the other game involving 2 persons doing the back and forth thing, too. I want humankind to be cancelled.

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1 hour ago, Ocsimano18 said:

the Verizon one

I like that you found it boring and the thing didn't even start yet 

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1 hour ago, Ocsimano18 said:

If guys like me don't enjoy watching these tournament then the issue is not on our side.

Excellent example of Trump Logic there chap, well done for shutting down anybody else's opinion other than yours.

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I like watching them from time to time. No CVs, pure strategy, precision positioning, timing in a push, create crossfires, DDs plays...
Honestly, if you don't like that, don't watch them.

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Honestly its really a matter of personal choice, I quite enjoy watching competitive play its interesting to see just how important careful positioning and time makes such a difference and how a misplay is both pounced on and countered (or at least attempted too). The absence of CVs also makes for a much more interesting display of DD usage and working around radar. 

 

I am some what perplexed by how the OP can find the Verizon stream boring seeing as it has not happened yet, the cynic in me has a theory though. 

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1 hour ago, lovelacebeer said:

Honestly its really a matter of personal choice, I quite enjoy watching competitive play its interesting to see just how important careful positioning and time makes such a difference and how a misplay is both pounced on and countered (or at least attempted too). The absence of CVs also makes for a much more interesting display of DD usage and working around radar. 

It is certainly about personal preference, but personally I think KOTS (compared to last CBs) demonstrate quite clearly that blaming the CVs for ruining competitive is not entirely true.

KOTS, similarly to experiences from this last CB season (where we do have CVs, unlike KOTS), demonstrated that DDs were relegated to a minor role regardless of which competitive scene we're looking at.
Most lineups featured 1 or no DD at all (KOTS), while I can only remember a handful of games where the teams used 2 DDs. (Most games had them die or crippled earlier, and it was really disheartening to see some of the DDs just hiding behind islands due to the radar lockdown and otherwise just occasionally throw random torps out)
Petro and Stalin spam was similarly rampant in both scenes, pointing to how an overabundance of long-range radar seems to be the most limiting factor for more prominent DD representation.
I'm not saying radar necessarily leads to the DDs being blapped outright (KOTS players especially are too good for this), but more in the sense that it locks down a position too much by restricting movement in particular zones, while making it exceedingly difficult (and less rewarding) to attempt any stealth-based or flanking strategies.
Even if a DD is baiting radar and is only briefly spotted at the 12 km limit, the enemy team now has an update on the location of the DD (RPF contributes to this too), which limits the influence of the DD (since players can now know where the torpedo threats are, from which angles the enemy is gaining vision, and more importantly, where the DD isn't on the map).

While I understand player frustrations about CVs, I generally think that the most pronounced obstacle for heavier DD use, is the current overabundance of long-range radar (sometimes as much as 5 or 6 out of 7 ships in a lineup).

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51 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

DDs plays...

Last KOTS didn't have much of those "plays" though.
Mostly it was 0 or 1 DD on a team, whose job it was to (mostly) spot and discouraging pushes, possibly capping once in a while if allowed.
That stuff was really boring to watch on the DD side.

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