Jump to content
You need to play a total of 50 battles to post in this section.
ReapingKnight

To push a cap or not?

19 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
174 posts
7,392 battles

Hello Forums,

 

I am here just wanting to get some feedback on the question in the title of this post 'To push a cap or not', to be more specific I am talking about the caps on the flanking sides of the map 1 & 2 line or 9 & 10 line as examples.

 

In the past couple of days I've be playing solo and with division mates and we seen a lot of games where the ships that have spawned in the middle all go to one flank and normally is the side that has the higher number of ships there, but when they arrive at the cap instead of pushing with the greater firepower they just park up and sit and shoot behind islands in BBs and CAs.

I personally think that if you're side of the map has 2/3 or more ships you have to be aggressive otherwise the other side is going to lose the slow fight and you'll then be over run, but in my recent games I've had players with 46%WRs and poor PR say that I was stupid for trying to push a flank when we had 9 ships to the enemies 5. During the push I died which I was well are would happen being first into the fight, but the idea is whilst I'm taking all the enemy ships the others close behind can push and focus fire so we can win the flank overall in esscence trading 1 maybe 2 ships for the flank and killing the enemies there in return. This has worked before when I've done this as I try to communicate the plan in chat.


I would like to hear from players with good ratings on what their postion is on this would you push or just stop?

 

Thanks,

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LEEUW]
Players
2,613 posts
10,265 battles

If you can always take the kiting/defensive position, because then you will always have an advantage over the pushing enemies, even if they outnumber you.

Just FYI, we won this game....

image.png.ff021448665c0152b27ae804097056a6.png

 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
28,115 posts
14,890 battles

It all depends on the situation.

 

Even with a numercial superiority, when the enemy is smoked up/hidden, pushing in blindly will reduce your number advantage quickly.

You first have to do your homework: get in flanking positions to get a firing solution on enemies behind islands, find and eliminate the spotter and so on, after that you can push. That takes time.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[ST-EU]
Supertest Coordinator
281 posts
14,086 battles

As a DD only push into a cap if:

- You know where the enemy radar ships (cruisers) are. If you haven't found one yet, assume it is behind the island next to the cap and bide your time

- Usually each cap attracts at least one enemy DD. Figure out which on you're likely to encounter -- can you take a gunboat? If it's a German/Pan-Asia DD and you're not -- don't bother.

- Is there a CV? If it paying attention to the the cap you're eyeing? Once it starts getting captured, it will get attention.

- Make sure there is a way out or hard cover to hide behind.

- Patience, patience, patience. The match isn't won by the first cap. You can let it fall to the enemy and grab it at a later moment.

- You don't necessarily have to flip a cap -- just sailing into a red cap will stop the enemy getting point from it. That alone can force their hand.

 

Good luck out there. :)

  • Cool 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SM0KE]
Players
6,125 posts
14,608 battles
40 minutes ago, ReapingKnight said:

I would like to hear from players with good ratings on what their postion is on this would you push or just stop?

I absolutely don't have a good rating, but here's some input from a position of mediocrity:

  • There are no absolute yes/no answers to this sort of question because so much depends on the specifics of ship types, remaining hp etc.
  • In general though, my view is that if one side has a significant numerical advantage, they should push, but do so intelligently (this is a lot easier in division or coordinated clan play); as pointed out previously, a good defending player in the right ship can make the attackers' lives fairly unpleasant (and every attacker who hides behind an island because they got nervous makes the defenders' job easier).
  • Just stopping is rarely a good idea; if you aren't doing something active, you basically surrender the initiative to the opposition, giving them a much better chance of being able to do to you whatever they want to.
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SHAFT]
Players
11,028 posts
9,449 battles

Reminded me of a game lately, can be seen on Twitch.

Its not me, but im in the division (the Yamato)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/801670517?t=0h5m47s

 

We are 7 vs 4 (one enemy DD not spotted, but he capped C). In that situation, i dont have issues going forward, because you have to win the flank. You can pretty much count on your other flank losing, because they are less. Even if they manage to kite, they still gonna lose the flank/cap, which means you have to support them.

A DD would help in that situation, but they are at B/C. Instead we had a CV, which is good enough for spotting. He could have dealt better with the Shima, but... eh, it worked out.

 

Always assess the situation. Do you have to push: yes/no? Thats the question to start with. If you have superior forces, and the enemies neither push nor kite, but sit at islands, you have a good chance of advancing. Trying longrange snipefest is a good way to lose, as at some point your teammates might do stupid yolo stuff or show broadside, and then you lose ships on your strong flank. If the weak flank also lost, thats when you are in the crap.

If you are in a div, try to get a coordinated push. And hope the sheep follow you without doing stupid stuff.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
8,456 posts
9,251 battles
36 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

If you can always take the kiting/defensive position, because then you will always have an advantage over the pushing enemies, even if they outnumber you.

Just FYI, we won this game....

image.png.ff021448665c0152b27ae804097056a6.png

 

Is that a Drake?

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SPURD]
Players
602 posts
4,788 battles

Pushing has this issue that you have to place a lot of faith in random people. A few days ago, with GK, I wanted to break the deadlock on a cap so we wouldn't autolose to objectives. Drive up, keep shooting at Hindenburg who would have soon died even to my nonmeta guns and then the enemy Yamato would have to retreat probably. What actually happened was that my Goliath decided that he has to come with me and so he got overmatched and killed in 2 salvos, insted of keeping the good position he had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[LUZ1]
Players
870 posts
12,798 battles

As a general rule, players are often too passive. They lemming to one side and then just sit there. They stay on the side where they outnumber the enemy until the last red ship is killed, and only then do they move to B. By that time 2 caps have been red for minutes and half the green team has been killed and the game is lost.

So yeah, many players have difficulty keeping an overview over the entire battle and don't push when they should.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NOCAP]
[NOCAP]
Players
685 posts
7,996 battles

Nowadays games get decided very early by several ships sinking in the first 5 minutes. Early Caps prolong the suffering if you are on the loosing side and let the game end to quickly if you are on the winning side. Taking out ships as fast as possible is very important. If you are comfortable  at surviving, attract as much attention on you as you can while doing this, by Tanking you help your  teammates surviving longer. The „streamer style of playing“ , sitting in the back and farming the enemy leads to bigger dmg numbers but also more losses (if you get 150k in the Conqueror every game your Winrate still will be 60%+ through). In a dd you start the Game by going in the cap and fight the enemy dd, in a cruiser go  to the next Cap and get it in Radar range, in a bb by getting close (your concealment at the edge of the cap) and blap the enemy cruiser/dds, in a cv by focusing Radar cruisers or decent players out. You don’t have time to take 5min to get in a good position like in 2018^^. Getting caps is of course useful, but don’t chase the kiting enemys after that if there is low Chance of getting kills. Don’t give up caps freely, but also don’t die alone against 5 enemies. Games are rarely decided by subtle things like cap control and having more points after 20min, but by killing the no camo  Shima and broadside torp reload Minotaur as quickly as possible before they have time to outplay your even more limited team. Have fun!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
8,456 posts
9,251 battles
52 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

Yes it is. 

ObamaNotBad.jpg.15550564dc96b0cc0937fb226acb2732.jpg

Not bad sir, not bad. 

Yeah, first I wanted to say that I don't think it was a good position for a Neptune (the only other T9 ship with 10 km torp range and a bit over 10 km concealment), but then I saw the gun range and Neptune has 16.5 km as far as I remember. Drake is a good bit less bad when all you want to do is just delay that flank so your team doesn't get overrun from the West. Nice to see Drake players.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
5,214 posts
21,407 battles
5 hours ago, ReapingKnight said:

I would like to hear from players with good ratings on what their postion is on this would you push or just stop?

When there's three caps to be taken, three caps should be taken. Playing for anything else is iviting a loss...

 

When I see "my" team go full lemming I usually do my best to take a cap solo or defend it at least and it's flank, even though usually the battle was already lost as soon the lemminging started...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[THESO]
Players
1,267 posts
16,417 battles
12 hours ago, ReapingKnight said:

I would like to hear from players with good ratings on what their postion is on this would you push or just stop?

 

You may call me superficial, but after reading this, I first of all looked up your stats and seeing what I saw changes the context of your request dramatically. If you were some newb, totally unaware, I would patiently explain the psychology and tactics of lemming trains and whatnot.

But you already know what you are doing, so I assume you require a more sophisticated approach. I don't want to delve into details as many of the previous posts - and rightfully so - did.

 

I find it important to stress who you are in a battle and how you can shape the behavior of your team.

 

First of all, when it comes to the question, whether your team should push or not, that depends on the map. There are maps that require a continuous push. A good example is Two Brothers. On that map you struggle to support the weak side as there are huge mountains in the middle. So in order to expose the flanks of your enemy, you absolutely need to push and keep pushing until you meet resistance. Important is not just pushing, but pushing at a higher angular speed than the enemy team. I mean "angular" in the sense of a rotation around the center of the map. I have seen many battles lost by teams who pushed at full speed but very wide, resulting in low angular speed, effectively being caught up by the enemy main force making a much tighter push closer to the center.

 

Effectively in these clockwise / counter-clockwise pushes it's about pushing relative to the enemy team in a continuously shifting front line. That principle unfortunately is also prevalent in epicenter maps, cause teams struggle to understand that game mode. Things change a little when it comes to Standard Battles. There you also try to get the angular advantage, but only until you reached the enemy base.

The whole point is to (a) dislodge the enemy fleet, getting to the weak back line units and (b) utilizing a superiority in numbers.

 

There are also different maps where you got a static center line. I think Shatter, Warrior's Path and Sea of Fortune are typical examples. In those maps, following the enemy team too stubbornly will result in exposing yourself to crossfire from the other side of the map. It will also lead your ships too far away from the still uncontested two caps. A typical defensive move is to go towards the near corner, so the attackers follow those ships to that corner, wasting time in which the enemy team disposes of your residual team on the far flank and takes the center cap. You then turn and give broadside to the fleeing ships which will re-engage.

So on these maps one rather pushes only slightly until the cap is taken and then digs in around islands giving cover against focus fire, or moves to the side to re-inforce the weak flank, if one already has a ships advantage.

 

The point to make is that every map needs one or the other approach and getting it wrong will result in losses of ships and subsequently the battle.

 

I realize I have been talking more about how far one should push rather than, if one should push at all. But, as mentioned by others, that choice is situational and trivial. If you are on the strong side, your job is to push at least as fast as the enemy team does on your weak side. I don't mean pushing stubbornly, but you gotta make it happen, no excuses to be made. Your team on the weak side is usually fighting uphill and it would be unsportsmanlike to expect them to hold off the enemy more than absolutely necessary. Their whole morale is based upon the belief, that you make it happen. Those guys on the weak side regularly sacrifice their survival and XP to ensure the win, they come bottom of the team. On the strong side none of that is felt. It often is a rather casual exchange of shots which lulls the lemming train into feeling they got all the time in the world and blaming the weak side for the inevitable collapse of their flank.

 

It is not easy to make a lethargic lemming train push. One thing however I have regularly witnessed and I find it embarrassing for the lemming train: Regularly the enemy team opposing the lemming train is put under so little pressure, they even get the liberty to start crossfiring to your weak flank. Imagine, when you are kiting superior forces on the weak side and you need all your skill to dodge those shots, how it feels, when shots from the side of the lemming train are hitting you, cause your lemming train is picking their noses. When you are on the lower end of carrying a washing machine upstairs and the guy on the upside is taking a long time to decide where to go, it is only human you want to shove that machine into his face. So go easy when those complaints come in.

 

So the least you gotta provide on the strong side is a constant pressure on the enemy team that prevents them from focussing your weak side or moving ships there.

 

How do you make your ships push? You can try to encourage them to push in chat. You can try to call targets. What targets are your team mates afraid of? It's a puzzle game. Your BBs are afraid of torps, so you need to kill the DD. To do that, you need your team to kill a cruiser or two first. So you try to combine their narrow-mindedness - "need easy damage" - with your tactical needs.

 

On the other side, you might not want to be part of the lemming train at all, depending on what ship you got. Slow USN-BBs go with the lemming train, kiting ships go to the weak flank. Also russian BBs can tank millions of potential damage defending a flank.

A sophisticated method is trying to balance out the teams by slightly manipulating your players. It doesn't work all the time, tho. Especially when I spawn in the middle, I try to indicate with an early and hard turn which way I intend to go, if I want weak players to go to that direction. Weak players are insecure, they usually try to go with the pack, so you can try to commit them to the side that needs reinforcement. That requires the MM-monitor and a bit of gut feeling, which player is what type. It also depends on the map. For example the map Neighbors has a painful tendency for northern teams to lemming to C-cap, while southern teams find the continent too claustrophobic and most of the time lemming to A-cap. I try to counter that as much as possible by turning early and decisively to the uncomfortable side. Sometimes I get a few ships to follow me. But now we are talking soft-facts.

 

The take-home message is: Yes, as a rule of thumb, put pressure on your flank. Whether you are defending and only slowly giving way or attacking claiming territory and exposing the covered defenders, doesn't matter. Pushing is not a choice, it's a result gained by the means of pressure. No pressure means no initiative, no initiative means not shaping the battle in your favor.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[JRM]
Players
7,008 posts
14 hours ago, ReapingKnight said:

Hello Forums,

 

I am here just wanting to get some feedback on the question in the title of this post 'To push a cap or not', to be more specific I am talking about the caps on the flanking sides of the map 1 & 2 line or 9 & 10 line as examples.

 

In the past couple of days I've be playing solo and with division mates and we seen a lot of games where the ships that have spawned in the middle all go to one flank and normally is the side that has the higher number of ships there, but when they arrive at the cap instead of pushing with the greater firepower they just park up and sit and shoot behind islands in BBs and CAs.

I personally think that if you're side of the map has 2/3 or more ships you have to be aggressive otherwise the other side is going to lose the slow fight and you'll then be over run, but in my recent games I've had players with 46%WRs and poor PR say that I was stupid for trying to push a flank when we had 9 ships to the enemies 5. During the push I died which I was well are would happen being first into the fight, but the idea is whilst I'm taking all the enemy ships the others close behind can push and focus fire so we can win the flank overall in esscence trading 1 maybe 2 ships for the flank and killing the enemies there in return. This has worked before when I've done this as I try to communicate the plan in chat.


I would like to hear from players with good ratings on what their postion is on this would you push or just stop?

 

Thanks,

In general - no, you dont push as the r* "team mates" that are parking behind the islands the entire match will be more then eager to call you out as noob and watch you burn so they can plink one or two more salvos from safety then they will sail into the corner and proclaim the entire team as useless noobs...

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
174 posts
7,392 battles
On 11/16/2020 at 5:29 AM, Yedwy said:

In general - no, you dont push as the r* "team mates" that are parking behind the islands the entire match will be more then eager to call you out as noob and watch you burn so they can plink one or two more salvos from safety then they will sail into the corner and proclaim the entire team as useless noobs...

This literally happened that game myselfy in Alabama and div mate in an Atago saw most of our team come with us, we had spawned at the C so decided to go yhere whilst team mates who spawned at B abandoned it to follow us.

 

We did talk about a plan on the way to the cap and as only 2 dds per side we thought we had a reasonable chance to push through the cap without being slowed down. Only when we got into the cap did the team mates all stop and cower behind the islands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[JRM]
Players
7,008 posts
3 minutes ago, ReapingKnight said:

This literally happened that game myselfy in Alabama and div mate in an Atago saw most of our team come with us, we had spawned at the C so decided to go yhere whilst team mates who spawned at B abandoned it to follow us.

 

We did talk about a plan on the way to the cap and as only 2 dds per side we thought we had a reasonable chance to push through the cap without being slowed down. Only when we got into the cap did the team mates all stop and cower behind the islands.

Yep, the sad thing is - there is literally nothing you can do to change that, even a full on 3 man division with meshing ships wont mean much if the entire rest of the team is completely indolent camper communion...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[HAMAR]
Players
444 posts

Expecting something from random teammates is dangerous.

Enemy team takes cap A and camp there. Your team take B and C and should win but NO! 

Your teammates think it is a must to take A cap too, so they charge in one by one to the loosing camping team at A

and die. This happens so often that I think it can be good strategy to just take one cap and camp there.

Many times I have screamed in chat Stop Pushing! usually with no luck. And the camping blob win:cap_viking:

So expecting random teammates to follow you in coordinated push to win a cap is what I think optimistic and get

you killed most of the time.

 

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×