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Lantirn

DDs Gameplay and no teamwork these days

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Ok guys,

 

Been in the game some 8-9 months. Done around 1300 battles, mainly playing randoms.

 

I am starting to have a real understanding of the game now and the roles of each ship type but also what is happening in the randoms every day.

 

Since the last lockdown I have a lot of free time and I am playing alot. Mainly playing IJN DDs. Been in the clan lately only for the eco benefits.

 

I played for a long period the shima which I loved it, but with all these radars its more of a luck ship these days.

 

I love Kita and Aki because I believe these are more sustainable in this environment. 

 

I have come to a conclusion that DDs are the weakest of all the ships, but also the players that play them are reported the most if you dont perform optimum in every game.

DDs are the ships to blame all the time (In the chat: DD spot! DD CAP! DD smoke! Useless DD! @#$%^% DD! or whatever)

BBs are mostly camping behind islands, with few of them really playing as they should. CR are these days always behind BB's, not supporting DD's anymore.

So DD's are expected to perform in a very demanding environment especially in high tier games, with many crying without knowing some of the weaknesses a DD is encountering these days.

And I see it every day. They expect you to rush to CAP from the first minute when there are 4 radars, while everyone else is camping. BB expect you to spot, while CVs are massively melting your HP and they are like 15 kilometers back without supporting with AA defense.

So, no one except few are playing for the objective, only to save their HP by camping, and of course without teamwork, the team loses. Because I have seen many times just 2 battleships melting 4-5 ships because they try to escape with their tails to the enemy. 

 

Especially during weekends its a mess. Not fun at all. You see everybody going to one flank only, or you see some stupid ideas on the chat and then everybody says yeahh lets do it, only for the battle to last 7 minutes. The more you play, the more you realize that you are pissed of in such circumstances.

 

And then there is the compliments and the reports.

Which I dont care so much about them, but, what an eye opener to lose 2 points in 2 consequent battles because someone believes that you screwed up and he cannot shoot behind the island. Come on seriously guys? At least one was going for the objective! Why you dont report so easily BBs camping? Its becoming a norm thats why. Why you dont report CRs when they are killed even before using their radars?

 

DDs are judged more than every other ship in this game. I love DDs but the skill ceiling is very high with everyone staying behind. I dont say that I am a great player. I am on the learning curve. Sometimes I just wish everybody could go with the flow and support each other. I should change mindset, and leave the flank as many do, leave the battle because you see its not going to end well, and decide to change flank just for yolo. 

 

Maybe I should find a Clan that plays as a team. I dont know. But like this is no fun at all.

 

 

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You need thick skin in a DD. You learn so separate the morons from the good players. Most players just go about their business and hope to get some decent games into their daily schedule. 
If you know you are not to blame, ignore them. If you are uncertain, revise and check. But usually they want you to spot so they can farm, and this is a good way to win. But its sadly not the best reward for you in a dd. 
just be happy you are not in a cv!😂😂

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Vor 8 Minuten, Lantirn sagte:

I have come to a conclusion that DDs are the weakest of all the ships

 

To the contrary. It is the strongest class bar the CVs (which should not be in this game anyway.)

Almost every DD has carry potential, which cannot be said of every cruiser and BB by a long shot.

 

Zitat

but also the players that play them are reported the most if you dont perform optimum in every game.

 

Also wrong, that would be CVs. They are frequently reported whatever they do, on general principle, because most players just hate them.

 

Zitat

And then there is the compliments and the reports.

 

Inconsequential.

 

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Of course spotting is a DD's job. Its well understood, especially in an IJN torp boat with such concealment. But you expect some behind you to help with fire.

 

Many times I am in a 1v1 situation in a CAP, and you see reds firing all over the place while my team is behind islands? Lucky! :Smile_veryhappy:

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7 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

DD are not weak, they are just very challenging to play. They always were. 

Plus, the game lacks any form of tutorial that would explain to DD players how their consumables and weapons work best and what are the counter-plays to their class.

 

Seen too many DD players smoke up when radared.

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1 minute ago, Aragathor said:

Plus, the game lacks any form of tutorial that would explain to DD players how their consumables and weapons work best and what are the counter-plays to their class.

 

Seen too many DD players smoke up when radared.

 

True.

 

It took me long time to realise how to deal with radar. In many cases, the only way is to assure a quick escape route from CAP to a safe place. If there is not a one, only one option, you have to delay the CAP and even becoming a red CAP.

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5000 battles and still learning to play dds, there are so many factors to take into account(enemy dds capabilities, radar, hidro, cv../eu dds, french dds) 

The skill required is very high, It takes time and u will get the hang of it. Its more adrenalin than other ships but a lot of fun. Take it as it is, a game.

 

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The thing about Cruisers cant add up tho.

If Cruisers always camp behind BBs, how can they radar you in the cap? Unless the BBs would actually sit next to the cap aswell :cap_haloween:

 

52 minutes ago, Lantirn said:

Why you dont report CRs when they are killed even before using their radars?

 

Now you know why they cant just rush forward to radar the cap.

Im not saying you are entirely wrong, but you lack perspective. You have focused a lot on DD gameplay, while neglicting the other 2 classes. The only radar Cruiser you have played is Baltimore, and you are outperforming it with your DDs. With BBs you jumpstarted right to T8+9, one of them which is definetely on the stronger/easier side (Massa) thanks to its fast reloading repair party.

You need to play other classes and ships to understand what they can and cant do. If you constantly get flamed while playing DD, you need to start reflecting if others are maybe right. They are not always right ofc, but they are not always wrong either.

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1 hour ago, Lantirn said:

DDs are the ships to blame all the time (In the chat: DD spot! DD CAP! DD smoke! Useless DD! @#$%^% DD! or whatever)

 

I play DD all the time and I never experiance that. Must be you.

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BBs cant come forward to help with their AA

-because AA doesnt really exist in the game

-being in range to cover you in AA would leave them in torp range of the enemy DD while being too busy to dodge because they are trying to angle vs enemy BB, trying to stay alive for a little longer while burning all over 

 

not that there arnt a lot of bad BB players that should be closer to the front these days 

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1 hour ago, Lantirn said:

DDs are the ships to blame all the time (In the chat: DD spot! DD CAP! DD smoke! Useless DD! @#$%^% DD! or whatever)

 

This is how you spot the sub 50% WR players when you play as a DD. Just leave them and try to support the better players somewhere else.

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Vor 27 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

The thing about Cruisers cant add up tho.

If Cruisers always camp behind BBs, how can they radar you in the cap? Unless the BBs would actually sit next to the cap aswell :cap_haloween:

 

 

Now you know why they cant just rush forward to radar the cap.

Im not saying you are entirely wrong, but you lack perspective. You have focused a lot on DD gameplay, while neglicting the other 2 classes. The only radar Cruiser you have played is Baltimore, and you are outperforming it with your DDs. With BBs you jumpstarted right to T8+9, one of them which is definetely on the stronger/easier side (Massa) thanks to its fast reloading repair party.

You need to play other classes and ships to understand what they can and cant do. If you constantly get flamed while playing DD, you need to start reflecting if others are maybe right. They are not always right ofc, but they are not always wrong either.

This... there is some truth in your arguments, but as he said it goes beyond that. 

 

Yes DDs are hard to play, because they are a high risk high reward class. Your concealment allows you to swing games with conquered / contested caps, but you're the closest to the enemy of all the classes while having the lowest HP pool. 

 

 don't realise fast enough that your don't have support... Don't know what the enemy ships can do, you die early and your team goes blind. 

 

Don't take it as an insult, but IMHO you a) don't know enough about the game and how the classes interact and b) you play too many high tier games with terrible results. 

 

I mean you have more games on a single t10 ship than I have, yet I have ten times your total matches. Back when I started my stats looked like yours and the best advice I got here was not to rush t10... Which you did... 

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Playing DD is the closest thing to being an actual soldier in an actual battle.

 - You can learn the basics and several guides.

 - You can prepare for most of the situations.

 - You can be an excellent combat strategist, weapon professional, close combat fighter, judo champion.

 - You can learn the locations and have all the backup you need.

 

At the end it is still based on pure luck.

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Yep, 


I didn’t say that I am the best player out there, I am still learning. Also I said that I am starting to understand how the game works. Not that I know all the ship specs by memory. 
 

I have jumped to high tier ships, that’s true and you are right. Most of the battles are with shimakaze which by definition is a very risky gameplay style and while learning very early the how to’s can have a tremendous impact to your stats. But who cares? And yes, I am focused to DD’s and haven’t played much CR’s. In most randoms most players run quickly behind predictable spots and radar you until the day that WG will stop radar passing through terrain. 

That doesn’t mean that I can’t see what’s happening in the randoms, and how a correct game progresses or how you deal with it. I just find it very risky to run a DD and I say that you are judged more than other classes. 
 

But I find that Aki and Kita brings me far better results because they are more survivable to the high tier environment. But still a mistake costs you your life. 

 

As many here have pointed out correctly that I will figure out. I guess with experience. 
 

The point is teamwork. Without teamwork it’s a mess, no second guess! 
 

So, when there is no teamwork, a DD is doomed to its faith and eventually the team. Because you have to step back without help. No fun at all😂😂😂

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3 hours ago, Lantirn said:

I have come to a conclusion that DDs are the weakest of all the ships

Nah; played correctly, DDs can be ludicrously influential.

 

Having glanced at your profile you have a couple of issues, namely lack of experience (or 'low cunning' if you prefer) and this:

image.thumb.png.6a606d65e9339122fa2ec977b1961005.png

image.thumb.png.80beab40dbd631512c5cd05d8a0f3d37.png

 

If you'll permit a few suggestions:

  • Play the other classes and nations more; it'll give you a practical understanding of what they can/can't do, what they're trying to do, and how best to deploy your own ship to take advantage of your allies' capabilities.
  • Try and flatten your tier curve a bit, maybe via some other DD lines (as well as the other classes); whilst anything that faces T4 CVs has a rough ride (T-22 can give the buggers a nasty surprise though), the mid tiers can provide a useful learning experience where you aren't top tier (top tier is expected to pull their weight more).
  • Keep a very close eye on your allies, and - if in doubt - assume they're idiots who won't shoot the right things (radars especially, but also opposing DDs and non-radar cruisers); I still mess up periodically due to over-estimating the competence of my team-mates in randoms.
  • Learn what all the ships in your tier-spread can do, particularly with regards to countering you; who has radar, who can have radar but may or may not, particularly troublesome hydro and so on (this is another reason to not rush up the tiers, as going at a more sedate pace allows you to learn who gets what at an easier rate).
  • Play with (reliable) division-mates, ideally on voice comms; life gets easier if you have at least one other player you can at least semi rely on for support.
  • Try and ignore people being Richards in chat - unless you've done something especially silly, they usually won't have the first idea what they're talking about.
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25 minutes ago, Lantirn said:

So, when there is no teamwork, a DD is doomed to its faith and eventually the team. Because you have to step back without help.

With the IJN torp DDs, assuming you built them right, you have class-leading concealment (5.4 km to 5.6 km, T8-10); make use of this, and stay alive at almost all costs.

 

The longer you stay alive, all things being equal, the greater your influence becomes; for example, in a Kagero (or premium sister), nothing out-spots you, so if you can last longer than the opposing radars you can wreak absolute havoc on the opposing fatties (which goes double if your side cleared away the opposition DDs too).

 

The point being that there is nothing wrong with not trying to cap too early (the moment you start to cap, the enemy knows roughly where you are), and running away when the situation calls for it.

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43 minutes ago, Lantirn said:

Most of the battles are with shimakaze which by definition is a very risky gameplay style

 

Shima is actually one of the most save DDs to play in high tiers.

 

44 minutes ago, Lantirn said:

ntil the day that WG will stop radar passing through terrain

 

I need radar to go through terrain to be able to play my DDs efficiently. You have still quite a path to go, young padawan.

 

 

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Verblonde thanks much for your input. 

 

Will do so.

 

I already have a list with radar ships and before the battle I always recap the table.

 

But you are right, the longer you survive the better the influence your DD has. 

 

For the sake of conversation:

I find kagero concealment superb, but her guns are weak. Its like the Shima (although shima has far better guns, many DDs at her tier will outgun her) . At some time you will need your guns as more and more people know how to dodge properly the torps, so besides spotting, landing your torps on target would require some sort of mental overload of the target ship by another friendly firing at him. 

 

This is why lately I switched to Akizuki and Kitakaze. I find you can influence the game more at the CAP with the correct support, high rate HE fire in the smoke can fire melt CR's and deal significant damage to BB's, while you still have the occasional opportunistic torp shot.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I need radar to go through terrain to be able to play my DDs efficiently. You have still quite a path to go, young padawan.

 

:Smile_teethhappy::Smile_teethhappy::Smile_teethhappy:

 

True!

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3 minutes ago, Lantirn said:

I find kagero concealment superb, but her guns are weak. Its like the Shima (although shima has far better guns, many DDs at her tier will outgun her) . At some time you will need your guns as more and more people know how to dodge properly the torps

 

Talking about using guns on Kagero and Shima it sounds like you missplay this class of DD. Ofc when you give away your position people will dodge the torps... And shima and Kagero are not made to engage other ships with their guns primarly, especially when you are still in the learning process as a player and with those DDs. Then you keep your guns silent at ALL times, until you have learned, which are the situations when you should/could use the guns. This is what I actually suggest to you: dont smoke up, dont use your guns for now. Focus on staying undetected, focus on getting the objectives, focus on keeping the enemys spotted for your team if possible at all times and then concentrate on your torpedos. Learn to read the maps and thus predict movements. Is there an island in the path of the BB you want to torp? which means, he has to turn somewhere eventually. Which path is he likely to go. etc.

 

Ill give you an example whats possible with prediction: Here I see the Kitakaze. I wait a moment, if he is contesting B-cap. He isnt. Which tells me, he is continueing his path around the island and will be traveling broadside into my torps. Rest is experiance and a little bit of luck.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Talking about using guns on Kagero and Shima it sounds like you missplay this class of DD. Ofc when you give away your position people will dodge the torps... And shima and Kagero are not made to engage other ships with their guns primarly, especially when you are still in the learning process as a player and with those DDs. Then you keep your guns silent at ALL times, until you have learned, which are the situations when you should/could use the guns. This is what I actually suggest to you: dont smoke up, dont use your guns for now. Focus on staying undetected, focus on getting the objectives, focus on keeping the enemys spotted for your team if possible at all times and then concentrate on your torpedos. Learn to read the maps and thus predict movements. Is there an island in the path of the BB you want to torp? which means, he has to turn somewhere eventually. Which path is he likely to go. etc.

 

This is the principle of IJN boats. Ofc I know this, I am not self spotting my ship by firing.

 

But at some time, you will have to use defensively your guns, usually when spotted unexpected by another DD. (Fletcher has 4 guns, you cant even compare with kagero or shima in guns)

 

I have also done what youve done in the video some times by shooting preemptive torps.

 

Thanks for the help

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1 minute ago, Lantirn said:

I find kagero concealment superb, but her guns are weak. Its like the Shima (although shima has far better guns, many DDs at her tier will outgun her) . At some time you will need your guns as more and more people know how to dodge properly the torps, so besides spotting, landing your torps on target would require some sort of mental overload of the target ship by another friendly firing at him. 

 

This is why lately I switched to Akizuki and Kitakaze. I find you can influence the game more at the CAP with the correct support, high rate HE fire in the smoke can melt CR's and deal significant damage to BB's.

As a general rule, the guns of the IJN torp line have good alpha, but flaky rof and traverse; this, combined with the fact that you're all about concealment, means that you should pick your spots before opening fire. That said, on Kagero, slightly more than a quarter of my kills are with guns (it's half with Yugumo!), so they absolutely should be used. The trick is to ideally do so only when you won't be seen by lots of opponents (firing breaks stealth) and when what you're firing at will be finished off by only a few rounds; you also need an exit strategy, to prevent anyone getting eyes on you before your stealth has reset and/or if your target survives (use smoke/terrain to break los).

 

With regard to torps, there is often a temptation to fire from extreme range (particularly if there is radar around); with the IJN torp line, their excellent concealment allows you to fire from much closer too. This is why it's worth being cautious until radars and DDs are killed/identified/in the wrong place - if a Kagero, say, can launch on a BB from 6 km away, even though her torps are spotted from the moon, most BBs will struggle to get out of the way in time. Early in the game, long-range torp launches are often called for (although bear in mind, they telegraph which direction you are, in relation to the opposition) - you may even get some hits - but it's mid-later game when you can get closer where you do your real damage. Do recall though, that a lot of the IJN torps hit like the proverbial dump truck, so it can be the case that a single hit may well do the damage of two torps from a lesser torp nation.

 

Aki and Kita are excellent, but they are a lot harder to do cataclysmic damage with, plus their reliance on guns makes them harder to play well (beyond the 'camp in smoke' approach); on the up-side, used properly, their AA makes them less vulnerable to typical CV players. Be cautious of camping in smoke though: besides making you blind (so giving up vision control, which may or may not matter, depending on circumstances), you're very vulnerable if you face an enemy that knows what they're doing e.g. lately, I've been having a lovely time specifically hunting smoke campers in Orkan/Smaland, but there are several hydro DDs that are very good at it too.

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3 hours ago, Lantirn said:

 

True.

 

It took me long time to realise how to deal with radar. In many cases, the only way is to assure a quick escape route from CAP to a safe place. If there is not a one, only one option, you have to delay the CAP and even becoming a red CAP.

Excellent, you need this escape route, whatever you do, always. It's crucial to be able to disengage if situations turn out unfavaorable. I have an example vid of my Yugomo playing without smoke and using topedo reload booster always using manouvres that allows for a quick escape becasue of the lack of a smoke module. It's good training to only use smoke defensively, to escape.

 

 

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