Camperdown Players 2,501 posts 17,258 battles Report post #1 Posted October 30, 2020 I don't have English language article on this, but a Dutch court has ruled that loot boxes in fifa are illegal and the Dutch Gambling Authority has issued a desist order to EA which can total € 10 million. @WG legal department take notice. 8 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GEUS] Purnylla [GEUS] Players 1,105 posts 25,180 battles Report post #2 Posted October 30, 2020 Didn't WG already 'improve' lootboxes by providing a bit more info about their (possible) contents? I'm still not a fan of lootboxes, but I fear WG has done just enough to make it legal... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[-SBG-] ColonelPete Players 38,559 posts 19,178 battles Report post #3 Posted October 30, 2020 Just now, Purnylla said: Didn't WG already 'improve' lootboxes by providing a bit more info about their (possible) contents? I'm still not a fan of lootboxes, but I fear WG has done just enough to make it legal... Only on some. You can still buy boxes where the content is rolled after buying. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GEUS] Purnylla [GEUS] Players 1,105 posts 25,180 battles Report post #4 Posted October 30, 2020 Yeah but on those boxes they've been providing pretty detailed information on the possible drops. Although not the exact chances though. Considering they're still selling these things in the Netherlands as well, I guess it's still legal. Lootboxes seem to be a good way to earn some money, because people seem to be pretty bad at calculating their chances, and gambling can be addictive. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LEEUW] TheBrut3 [LEEUW] Players 493 posts 8,080 battles Report post #5 Posted October 30, 2020 The stuff found in EA lootboxes, you can sell/trade to other players for real money. In WG lootboxes that isn't possible, and that's the legal difference why WG lootboxes are aloud. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Camperdown Players 2,501 posts 17,258 battles Report post #6 Posted October 30, 2020 Perhaps. The ruling says the illegal elements are the gambling and addictive nature of the loot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[HALON] Amon_ITA Players 708 posts 13,072 battles Report post #7 Posted October 30, 2020 The sooner lootboxes and microtransactions are ruled out as illegal worldwide the better. 17 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[--] Captain_Newman Players 2,147 posts 16,474 battles Report post #8 Posted October 30, 2020 Sikrit footage from a high level meeting at WG hq. 12 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[BS4] SeaWolf7 Players 1,818 posts 10,056 battles Report post #9 Posted October 30, 2020 Since most of the world has gone Bat sh*t crazy in 2020 wouldn't be surprised if loot boxes/Gambling on console/pc will be banned in general at some point in the future. Too much shenanigan's going on in this area by too many companies..... 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[GEUS] Purnylla [GEUS] Players 1,105 posts 25,180 battles Report post #10 Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Amon_ITA said: The sooner lootboxes and microtransactions are ruled out as illegal worldwide the better. I don't see a problem with microtransactions, as long as there's no RNG involved. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[PEZ] Yedwy Players 11,301 posts 39,586 battles Report post #11 Posted October 30, 2020 WG needs to stop staking the odds, a "random lootbox" should be exactly that - random, RNG spits out an integer between 1 and x where the x is the number of types of prizes that can be dropped and each is assigned to one of them, you get what you get from the roll and thats it, chance for any given outcome/prize is easy to calculate and thats that take it or leave it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LEXX] StanleyHTweedle Players 179 posts 7,608 battles Report post #12 Posted October 30, 2020 The sooner lootboxes are banned globally, the better. 11 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LADA] Gvozdika [LADA] Players 975 posts 10,423 battles Report post #13 Posted October 30, 2020 The trend appears to be that a dev or publisher will keep the lootbox mechanics in until actively forced not to by local laws. My take is that it involves a game of chance (e.g. you can't go out and buy a santas crate with X or Y ship - just a CHANCE to get ONE of many possible options.) Money involved + chance elements = Gambling. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CBS] Allied_Winter Players 6,242 posts 10,755 battles Report post #14 Posted October 30, 2020 @Camperdown can you confirm if this is an accurate translation/view of the dutch article you've read? https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/dutch-judge-rules-that-ea-should-be-fined-e250k-every-week-until-it-removes-fifa-loot-boxes/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[I-J-N] Karasu_Browarszky [I-J-N] Players 13,025 posts Report post #15 Posted October 30, 2020 The lootboxes are addictive, however I'm less opposed to the kind of lootboxes that give you doubloons, as those are always useful to have and can be further exchanged for something you want. If the box is filled up with all kinds of other stuff you may not have wanted, it's a problem. Also, gambling not also implies a chance to win but also, signficantly, a chance to lose. As long as the lootbox value exceeds the price of the contents, you won't be actually losing even when not getting what you may have hoped for. The addictive side of it may still be a problem, though. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Camperdown Players 2,501 posts 17,258 battles Report post #16 Posted October 30, 2020 13 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said: @Camperdown can you confirm if this is an accurate translation/view of the dutch article you've read? https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/dutch-judge-rules-that-ea-should-be-fined-e250k-every-week-until-it-removes-fifa-loot-boxes/ Yes, the Gambling Authority can impose a fine of €250K per week with a maximum of €5 mln on EA and it's Swiss subsidiary each week. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[KOKOS] DanSilverwing Players 1,193 posts 19,517 battles Report post #17 Posted October 30, 2020 FIFA was/is controversial because of the high number of child users, so protecting children from gambling addiction forms the basis of the case, and this seems to be in line with recent thinking. I don't know if you've seen the recent DCMS survey (https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/loot-boxes-in-video-games-call-for-evidence, closes 22 November)) but it's quite nuanced and has an emphasis on children and gaming and adult supervision. On the other hand, while there is pushback against lootboxes there is an avalanche of gachapon mechanics in mobile gaming; Genshin Impact made $100m in two weeks and re-couped their development costs. Gachapon is already formally regulated and complies with published prize-odds, doesn't seem to stop anyone. WG have attempted to distance themselves from lootbox criticism by removing them from direct cash purchase; instead you exchange virtual in-game currency. Also the EULA has specific instructions that under-18's need adult approval of the EULA and supervision while playing(!) https://legal.eu.wargaming.net/en/eula/ I think they're safe for years to come, but I've argued before that it would be better to just come clean and publish drop rates before forced to by regulators. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LEEUW] TheBrut3 [LEEUW] Players 493 posts 8,080 battles Report post #18 Posted October 30, 2020 Part of me gets the problem, part of me doesn't. Why? Well when i was a young padawan we had things called "Trading cards". These had a theme like Pokémon or DragonBall Z. Closed, random packs you buy for money and hope you didn't get the same shitty Pokémon 5x. So question of conscience; How about these packs 20 years ago? Why is it a problem now when those cards are digital? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CBS] Allied_Winter Players 6,242 posts 10,755 battles Report post #19 Posted October 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, TheBrut3 said: Why is it a problem now when those cards are digital? I mostly assume because back then a) it was mostly paid cash. And when weekly/monthly allowance was gone ... most kids didn't resort to stealing from the parents and just waited patiently for the next week and b) IF one child actually amassed huge amounts of duplicates, these could at least be traded. Sure, the crappiest pokemon was an item almost everybody had, but the medium stuff less so, and that's what's not possible inside warships. I'd LOVE to trade some FXP/credits to e.g. a poor clan member in exchange for something else. But that's not possible here. On top, when everything's digital, you don't see how much money you spend on average. It's tricky for some adults when all you have to do to buy something is "press purchase" (that's why I e.g. am not permanentely logged into my PayPal account, so I HAVE to enter my PW and thus confirm a purchase with a bit more thinking to it). But for kids? Sure some of the responsibility lies upon the parents shoulders (and WG here refers to the EULA). But overall it's still something that could be improved. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LEEUW] TheBrut3 [LEEUW] Players 493 posts 8,080 battles Report post #20 Posted October 30, 2020 8 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said: these could at least be traded. This is exactly what makes lootboxes illegal in the Netherlands. The possibility to trade (sell) the items you get.\ And that's the reason why WG lootboxes are not illegal. And you also cannot get duplicate ships for example Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[-SBG-] ColonelPete Players 38,559 posts 19,178 battles Report post #21 Posted October 30, 2020 16 minutes ago, TheBrut3 said: Well when i was a young padawan we had things called "Trading cards". These had a theme like Pokémon or DragonBall Z. Closed, random packs you buy for money and hope you didn't get the same shitty Pokémon 5x. So question of conscience; How about these packs 20 years ago? Why is it a problem now when those cards are digital? While the hobby is well liked by many, many others also consider it as profiteering, since the packs are sold for a multiple what they are worth, or an introduction into gambling. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CBS] Allied_Winter Players 6,242 posts 10,755 battles Report post #22 Posted October 30, 2020 1 minute ago, TheBrut3 said: This is exactly what makes lootboxes illegal in the Netherlands. Then I assume the differences between back then and today is, that back then it was a low amount compared to today? Or do you have to pay extra? E.g. if you want Ronaldo from your friend you have to pay him not only with a player from your stack but also with real money? Afaik that's the case in CS:GO.. Either way, we'll see what this decision means for Warships in the long run. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_Teob_ Players 1,625 posts 14,901 battles Report post #23 Posted October 30, 2020 While I hate loot boxes in pretty much any form, the way WG does it keeps them safe from any accusations of illegality imo. Mind you, while I did finish law school, I haven't worked in any legal capacity in a long time so I might be wrong. Basically the difference is that WG's model ensures that you always get at least the equivalent of what you spend with a chance to get something better. In EA's model you might get virtually nothing for the money you spent. So from a legal perspective, you always get your money's worth from WG so I guess it might not count as gambling cause I presume they would make the case that you could just buy the crates for the sure winnings and anything you get more is just their gift to the player. Personally I am not sure where I stand on this approach. I still feel like there's some gambling involved but it's true that you do get something equivalent for the money you spent. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NTT] arquata2019_ Players 2,248 posts 17,480 battles Report post #24 Posted October 30, 2020 33 minuti fa, DanSilverwing ha scritto: FIFA was/is controversial because of the high number of child users, so protecting children from gambling addiction forms the basis of the case kids these days....kids.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[LEEUW] TheBrut3 [LEEUW] Players 493 posts 8,080 battles Report post #25 Posted October 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Allied_Winter said: Afaik that's the case in CS:GO.. That's why Dutchies can't buy CS:GO keys. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
