Minekaze - Torps & Tactics?

[Tatoosh]

Question: IJN Minekaze DD - are the Type 94 (68 knots/7 kilometer) better to keep than the Type 89 (57 knots/10 kilometer) torpedoes?  Speed vs Range?  

 

I've been playing the Minekaze for a bit and I simply love it!  I started the game with the US Sims and played the US Sampson (Tier II) and Wickes (Tier III) before moving to Cruisers and working up through Omaha and Cleveland.  In fact I had a thread moaning about the loss of torpedoes on the Cleveland.  I learned to enjoy the ship but I seriously missed the torps even though it had some great buffs in other areas. 

 

And I whined about the US destroyers being destroyed so easy.  By the time I could get into the 4.5 kilometer range, I was usually toast.  More experienced players suggested the IJN tree destroyers, but I wanted to work with the US and try to hone my skills.  Well, I don't think my skills improved but once I moved to the IJN and got passed the first Type 42 (no mod) torpedoes things improved.  Even just a bit more range on my torpedoes made a world of difference in game play.  

 

Oh, I still get killed a lot. But going from 4.5 kilometers to 7 kilometers but now I often get to hurt my opponents in the process.  The Question - stated above - should I mount the Type 89 torpedoes in place of the Type 94?  The Type 89 has a 10 kilometers range but a slower speed of 57 knots.  The Type 94 has the lower 7 kilometer range but a great 68 knot speed.  With the turn buff the BB's have, it seems to me that a faster torpedo is a better torpedo!  At 10 kilometers - You can fire an hope, but with the faster turn speeds now, mored distance covered slowly really just gives your opponent lots of time to react.  

 

I don't expect to survive battles.  I like to get in and mix it up.  At least at this point.  Disrupting enemies, pulling their fire from my allies as I dodge and let lose torpedo barrages until someone nails me is my normal tactic.  Sometimes I get whacked quick - either a destroyer gets me or a Cruiser/Battleship gets lucky with their fire.  But occasionally I get the rush of holding 3 or 4 ships off, dodging repeated hailstorms of artillery and putting big dents into BB's and CA's if not actually sinking them.  

 

When I get into one of those fights, it is fantastic - all adrenaline and reactions - not much time to plan.  I see other DD drivers that like to hang out, hide and ambush.  Good tactics to be sure, but I like to try and sneak up on an enemy BB that is slugging out with one our big boys and make life miserable for him.  And for that the Type 94 torpedo seems ideal.  I have the Type 89 researched but not bought and mounted.  I kind of doubt it I will bother with them.  

 

Tactics & Strategy, I don't see a lot of team play in the game at this point.  No squadron or division alliances that pick duties and exploit enemy weaknesses.  Do you think that will develop in the game in the future?  Or will it be mostly single players with limited cooperation?  

 

 

[Keulz]

I've used the 10km torps. Usually trying to stay in the 6.5-8km range. These torps can really use some surprise effect from firing just after islands, you have the range to do it.

 

The 7km torps are too dangerous to use, imho.

[Djerin]

Yes the faster torps are better not just for their speed, but also because they get detected later. So they are much harder to evade. And it's generally easier to hit stuff with faster torps from the same range. Obviously it's also more dangerous, because the threshold to safely release them is significantly smaller. But  that makes it only more rewarding to get it done. It's quite amusing to play imho.

[Akula971]

I reverted back to my fast short range torpedoes, and changed tactics too. I'll scout in the Minekaze, and if I see a DD or a cruiser, I might send some torpedoes his way, but mostly I'll retreat to behind an island or the safety of cruisers, BBs, who will make sure the enemy DD or cruiser wished they where somewhere else. The targets I'm looking for are distracted battleships and cruisers who are duking it out with some one else. I can get in close, and fire a narrow spread of torpedoes. I see far too many destroyers end up sunk very quickly within the first half of the game. In my opinion the destroyer comes into its own in the second half of the game. In the first half, scout, lay smoke for your BBs, deny access to choke points with your torpedoes and avoid one on one battles unless your opponent is very low health. Always ensure you've got back up behind you.

[Fominator]

I don't expect to survive battles.  I like to get in and mix it up.  At least at this point.  Disrupting enemies, pulling their fire from my allies as I dodge and let lose torpedo barrages until someone nails me is my normal tactic.  Sometimes I get whacked quick - either a destroyer gets me or a Cruiser/Battleship gets lucky with their fire.  But occasionally I get the rush of holding 3 or 4 ships off, dodging repeated hailstorms of artillery and putting big dents into BB's and CA's if not actually sinking them.

 

That's the US DD tactic though (suicide boats).

 

About Minekaze: She's the best DD in her line and probably in the game, but you should play it more conservative. Never engage US DDs, you are faster and less detectable, stalk the BBs at 7km and locate the bad ones (game is full of bad BB players), close to 6,5km and torpedo them without getting spotted. Use the 7km torps, Djerin and Akula already explained why.

 

Also, always cap from the rim of the zones, unless you have a lot of support. If an enemy DD or CA contest them smoke and flee, you can cap it later. The best way to deal with US DDs is outspot and outrun them until a CA or BB on your team decides to click them for easy XP and credits.

 

[MeanGreenUnseen]

7km ones beat the 10km ones on all accounts except range itself. Detectability, speed, reaction needed to dodge, better angle choices. Also, bloody allies have less of a chance to walk into them.

 

As for Minekaze, it sounds like you're playing it wrong. First of all, staying undetected is an imperative when hunting CAs/CVs/BBs. This is partially because you're made of paper, but most importantly - because once they see you, they start evasive maneuvers which makes it impossible to land a good run. Also, unlike US DDs, you should aim to stay in open places if possible - first of all, due to your food generally going there and secondly because there are less obstacles to launch a batch of torps. You can play as an american too, but generally once again - when you pop up, they start evading and that ruins your chances to feed on someone a lot.

 

Generally engaging a BB that's already in a fight is a bad idea because he will be maneuvering a lot anyway to dodge incoming shots. I find that it's best to pick on "travellers" who are long range sniping while going somewhere. They tend to move around a lot less.

 

Now, DD vs DD... I will take on a US DD anyday if I'm not under threat of cruiser/BB fire and he wants to close in. It is much more dangerous to have one shooting at you from longer range while he's running away. As a ex-US DD you should have some dogfighting skills, unlike most of other destroyers. 3 torp launchers allow for great fights too, because you can use one to zone the enemy and make him commit to a side, second to go for the kill and third in case of last second dodges. Remember that in most cases most dangerous DDs are the ones that run and light you up for their allies.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

[tw53]

I use the 7km torps because of speed, espcially now after 3.1

[Tatoosh]

Keulz - that sounds like the best use of the Type 89 - 10k torpedoes.  I'm a bit more like Djern and want to close up within 5k or so.  Anything under 7k works but at 5k their ability to dodge is more limited.  

 

[Dai2]

I use 10 km torpedoes: I can ambush easily undetected, wich is hard to acheive with the 7km.

One day, I was the last one alive on my team.There were 3 BBs and a CV on the enemy team.

I killed them all from being at more than 8.5 km and without firing a single shot.

So in my opinion, the range is the most important factor of a torpedo in game.

[Tatoosh]

Thanks guys! Some great advice and food for thought in your posts.  I did break in on the "suicide boats" - US Destroyers and apply that tactic to the IJN Minekaze could be played much better, but it stands up a whole lot better than the US versions.  I rarely got hits with the US destroyers but I connect with the Minekazi, at least occasionally.  I will slowly try to adapt the other tactics into my play book.  Rereading your posts will help me envision other ways to use this destroyer.  

 

And I plan to keep the shorter range but faster Type 94 torpedoes for the foreseeable future! 

[rancidpunk]

I tend to use the long range torps if I'm in the mood for a more relaxed game. 

 

I've got the 8km torps on the Benson now - that is one awesome ship now to me, the Fubuki I've got the 15km torps and it's great too. Minekaze feels like the best of both worlds

 

Totally different playstyles on each of those tier 8 DD's (I'm trying hard to forget the grind of the awful T6'S and T7's ) so I'm really glad I kept the Minekaze as even though it's only a tier 5, with a skilled Captain it's a match for much higher tiers than it currently meets!

[namib_digger]

As soon as i started to use long-range torps, my kills and damage rate went up; i think it has the most kill per battle ratio of any of my ships. 

I did not know about the detectability of the low range torps - but so far i never had issues. 

Either i am so close that evasive manouvers dont work anyways or my long-distance shots hit.

This reflects my playstyle:

Usually from the start i do some scouting and i fire some long runners into the 'usual suspects' areas - which gets a surprisingly high hitrate (I'd say every 5th-6th battle i hit something) or i choose close combat, mainly against heavier ships. I have the speed and agiltiy to do so, as long as those are enganged with some allies.

I try to avoid American DD infight, because their guns turn much faster and seem to have a better accuracy, although they loose much of their hull turning speed compared to the Minekaze.. 

 

After having read the most replies i think of trying the shorter range torps - but i do have them with the Nicholas (or had it with the Clemson) - and i dont do that well in those,  

 

 

PS: is there any source for the torps dedectabilty?

[VonVolks]

Nice thread! I kept my minekaze, and I will try switching back to the faster torps.

 

I already stick with the faster./shorter ones on my fubuki and 7km should be no problem with a minekaze.

 

It will mean less spamming and more actual targeting though! I will see how it goes....

[mad_queen_Zoe]

I play the Minekaze alot always use the 7km torps , makes a huge difference . Oh btw Jingles did an excellent vid on you tude about the question you are asking , really worth watching hope this helps and enjoy torping big stupid battle ships sailing in straight lines lol

[BDubzZz86]

Depends on your play style imo.

 

The 10km torps you can shoot without getting yourself spotted. I've gotten destroyed in my BB by a Minekaze and didn't spot him once...

If, however, you like to live on the "dangerous" side of life and you feel 7km is enough range definitely prio the speed > range!

[Sub_Eleven]

I used the fast ones over the ranged ones. You'll notice that good players are very hard to hit with torpedos. If you want to sink em, you need to ambush em or close the distance. Faster torps gives em less time to dodge in those situations and thus a higher succes rate. If you're more a spray and pray kinda person stick with the long range ones though.

[N00b32]

I tested both multible times. In the end I use the 10km, because it helps me to dominate the battlefield. They allow for a lot of snap shots from central positions. Of course the reload time and 3x2 throwers plays a role, basically allowing me to torpedo an enemy every 20 seconds and probe their evasion early in the game. It also strikes fear in enemy battle formations early on, because they all start to evade like hell (or die to another torpedo;)), while I can steam off in another direction and forget the torpedos.

 

However, I think they are especially worse against carriers and in general for the combat once you have reached the enemy cap zone and start close combat pressure. 

 

It's quite a unique playstyle and most of the time you only die, if you get too greedy. But it has its weakness. A lot of experienced enemy players will slow your damage significantly, because they evade early on.

[MacHopper]

2 questions in one...but here's my thoughts.

 

I personally prefer USN DDs as I quite like the gunboat option during combat AND I've noticed within my own play style that regardless of nation or torpedoes I tend to torpedo from the same distance (say around 6 to 1 km). So for me, the highest priority in your choice would be torpedo speed, as you yourself said slower torpedoes give the target more time to react. However, my mate Cananatra, who prefers IJN DDs would probably go for the longer-ranged torpedoes as he tends to go for "Hail Mary" Torpedo Attacks when there are no nearby targets, whereas I almost exclusively go for "Coup de Gras" style torpedo attacks. I get more outright Devastating Strike style kills, but die more often. He usually survives with a great damage score and - to be fair to him - often as many kills as I get being more aggressive.

 

The other question is one of tactics. Now, I know from having played other games - be it "combat" games like World of Tanks or Warthunder, or a specific naval game like Navyfield - that real world tactics would work fantastically well against a team of Randoms. Unfortunately, the truth is that any "Game" is made up of arbitrary rules intended to give the flavour and experience of the "real" thing. The problem is that rules can always be exploited eventually IF you figure out the implications. So while a fleet of (for example) 2 CVs, 4 BBs, 4 CA/CLs and 2 DDs working together using "real world" tactics and formation would be deadly against Randoms...is it as deadly as, say, 3 CVs and 9 DDs in skilled hands? Or will the Clan Wars paradigm be 6 BBs and 6 CAs, or 2 CVs and 10 BBs? Right now, I'd say "Who knows". On a squad level, Naval tactics work well though. Taking complimentary ships does help each other out - A BB with a AA-heavy CL, for example.

[Lord_WC]

You can have about 5km spot range so getting into launching range is not a problem. As Type 89 leaves about 70% more time for the enemy to dodge I think the choice is really simple.

[snipershot]

I must be terrible at the game then, because i do much much better with 10km torps.

[N00b32]

I must be terrible at the game then, because i do much much better with 10km torps.

 

Welcome to the club of terrible Minekaze-10km-players ;)

 

However, I checked the stats of the players posting here, and so far, you seem to be the best Minekaze-player, while a lot of 7km lovers do not play the DD in the OBT.

[OldGrandad]

New to the Minkaze and friends who are better versed with playing DD's recommended the faster 7km torps and after using them over the longer distance but slower torps I agree. They must work wonders as a disgruntled New Mexico player in my last battle called me a cheat after my fast 7km torps sent him to the bottom. Obviously I should have used the 10km torps as he would have been able to avoid them more easily..... 

 

[Lord_WC]

However, I checked the stats of the players posting here, and so far, you seem to be the best Minekaze-player, while a lot of 7km lovers do not play the DD in the OBT.

Define 'best'. He has lower than some DPB and extremly low torp accuracy - which are the main indicators of the torpedo itself.

[N00b32]

Define 'best'. He has lower than some DPB and extremly low torp accuracy - which are the main indicators of the torpedo itself.

 

I don`t know. Maybe won battles over a longer period of time ? 

[rancidpunk]

Accuracy with 10km torps isn't very telling if you use the Minekaze for area denial, not every game of course but my idea of heaven is to have a whole flank to myself with some juicy targets to herd into position with a couple of torps here and there to get them going the right way for the killing shots. Sometimes I even get lucky with the herding shots