Bad AI or Troll Ai?

[InfinityIncarnate]

I wonder why players should be penalized for sinking an ally bot with torps in a coop game, when the bot weren't even going in the direction where they could be hit when they were launched, because as soon as the torps get closer, the bot changes it's direction, seemingly almost as if it's attempting to take as many torps as possible! Personally, it seems like WG is somehow deliberately trying to troll players, as there is no reason why the AI wouldn't try to avoid being hit and even worse because it changes it's direction so it's hit by torps.

Personally I think they should stop punishing players for a bad AI decision, as it's not beneficial for the game and it's doesn't even promote correct use of torpedos, thus in a way being detrimental to learning to use properly. Even when ally players are sunk because the ally player decides to change direction to take all torps, and often it's so obvious it's a deliberate move, you could call it a troll move.

What do you think?

[lafeel]

Your torps, your responcibility.

[InfinityIncarnate]

1 hour ago, lafeel said:

Your torps, your responcibility.

Right, so because it's the player that launches the torps it has full responsibility? What about the ally player/bot that actually took the torps deliberately, who had to make a major direction change to even able to get hit by the torps in the first place? It's not like that player has any responsibility. So basically what you're saying it's completely acceptable to take torps on purpose, just to harass and other players!?

[lafeel]

2 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Right, so because it's the player that launches the torps it has full responsibility? What about the ally player/bot that actually took the torps deliberately, who had to make a major direction change to even able to get hit by the torps in the first place? It's not like that player has any responsibility. So basically what you're saying it's completely acceptable to take torps on purpose, just to harass and other players!?

In a word, yes. If in doubt, don't launch them in the first place.

[InfinityIncarnate]

1 hour ago, lafeel said:

In a word, yes. If in doubt, don't launch them in the first place.

Thats exactly why it's detrimental to the game, because it doesn't promote people using torps and learning to use them correctly.
Even when not in doubt, some players/bots, especially bots will DELIBERATELY change course to take the torps... and thats the problem here, because that means players will refrain from using torps out of fear, rather than launch torps when there is an actual chance they can it, mind you that a lot of ships actually has a very short torp range, and the longer the range, the more difficult it actually is gauge whether or not launch them. It's quite bad that players are getting punished when it's the other player/bot that were at fault!

[lafeel]

3 minutes ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

It's quite bad that players are getting punished when it's the other player/bot that were at fault!

You just don't get it do you? The other player wasn't the one who launched the torps, you were, therefore the one at fault is YOU not them. It's as simple as that.

[InfinityIncarnate]

1 hour ago, lafeel said:

You just don't get it do you? The other player wasn't the one who launched the torps, you were, therefore the one at fault is YOU not them. It's as simple as that.

Yes I do get it, but I seriously don't think that is reasonable.
Apparently, you don't seem to get that punishing the player that launched the torps but weren't at fault promotes NOT USING torps! Because saying that the player who launched the torps is always at fault and it's responsibility, is the equivalent of saying it's alright to DELIBERATELY take torps, for what ever reason, even to harass and troll the other player. You can launch torps where there are NO ally players nearby your target or the torps trajectory, and somehow you end up hitting an ally because the ally changed direction after they were launched. Other players have responsibility for their actions as well you know.

[lafeel]

Just now, InfinityIncarnate said:

Yes I do get it, but I seriously don't think that is reasonable.
Apparently, you don't seem to get that punishing the player that launched the torps but weren't at fault promotes NOT USING torps! Because saying that the player who launched the torps is always at fault and it's responsibility, is the equivalent of saying it's alright to DELIBERATELY take torps, for what ever reason, even to harass and troll the other player. You can launch torps where there are NO ally players nearby your target or the torps trajectory, and somehow you end up hitting an ally because the ally changed direction after they were launched. Other players have responsibility for their actions as well you know.

Next time, maybe have a island between you and the nearest ally, that way you can't really hit them.

[InfinityIncarnate]

1 hour ago, lafeel said:

Next time, maybe have a island between you and the nearest ally, that way you can't really hit them.

Doesn't matter whether or not they can be hit, because IF they DELIBERATELY take the torp THEY'RE at fault and it becomes their own responsibility, and the torping player shouldn't be punished for because some takes their torps deliberately.
Because if they're don't change this, then they're effectively saying it completely acceptable to harass and troll other players through taking torps with full deliberation, where there are no repercussions for the trolling/harassing player!
Besides this, when the ai bot deliberately changes course to take the torps, then there is something wrong with the ai, it should be trying to avoid taking damage rather than take more damage.

[Spartan_Renegade]

I think you should learn to predict ally movement and fire torps accordingly. Or better yet, don't fire torps behind the front line.  This goes out to all Yoshinos / DDs with 20km torps

[Itwastuesday]

Well the AI also torps you for no reason. And other bots!

 

In that way it is good practice for playing with humans.

[cL0S3R2G0d]

well AI has no problem to launch torps directly in your route or even shell you if there is an enemy - and they get a warning but ... the same bot isn't even pink in the next game 

[ColonelPete]

5 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

What do you think?

Do not launch torps from second line!

[_HomTanks_]

5 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Right, so because it's the player that launches the torps it has full responsibility?

Yes.

[Dutchy_2019]

8 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

I wonder why players should be penalized for sinking an ally bot with torps in a coop game, when the bot weren't even going in the direction where they could be hit when they were launched, because as soon as the torps get closer, the bot changes it's direction, seemingly almost as if it's attempting to take as many torps as possible! Personally, it seems like WG is somehow deliberately trying to troll players, as there is no reason why the AI wouldn't try to avoid being hit and even worse because it changes it's direction so it's hit by torps.

Personally I think they should stop punishing players for a bad AI decision, as it's not beneficial for the game and it's doesn't even promote correct use of torpedos, thus in a way being detrimental to learning to use properly. Even when ally players are sunk because the ally player decides to change direction to take all torps, and often it's so obvious it's a deliberate move, you could call it a troll move.

What do you think?

 

Sounds a lot like back-line torping, or torping into your own team. 

 

 

Correctly launching torpedos also includes trying to anticipate what the rest of your team mates will be doing.

 

 

And yes, I get frustrated, and occasionally "pinked" because of this as well. 

 

 

[Excavatus]

Do not torp when there is an ally in the effective area.. AI or Player.. 

Your torps.. your responsibility.. This fact does not change when you "don't agree" with it :) 

 

Look at the bright side.. you are talking about "learning the torps, and how to use them" 

 

Lesson 1: when you torp from behind, you can hit allies.. 

[Sunleader]

I by now just Ignore Allies when Torping.

General Opinion is. When your Torp Hits an Ally its your Fault. Even if that Ally is a Kleber using Speed Boost to Catch your Torps from behind....

 

So by now I decided to just Ignore wether or not a Friendly might be hit by my Torps.

Situations towards this are rare enough that beyond going Pink now and then nothing happens.

And since I dont Aim at Friendlies on Purpose WG doesnt care.

 

People think the Automatic TK Punishment System doesnt work.

But they are wrong. It works Perfectly Fine.

Thing is its intention is different from what Community thinks.

Community thinks its there to Punish People for hitting Friendlies.

But its not.

Its only for Punishing People that hit Friendlies on Purpose.

Hitting Friendlies on Accident every 10-20 Matches the System doesnt care about.

 

 

[zengaze]

Holy crap, this again, you argue that punishing you for your torps hitting bots does not allow you to learn how to use your torps, when it is the very opposite. It teaches you that if a friendly can eat your torps you shouldn't torp, or you will get punished.

 

This post was made yesterday read it, or stay a potato  https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/142733-long-range-torpedo-dilemma/

[Sunleader]

I would Support that Killing Bots in your Team doesnt get Punished.

Then I could just Delete my Bot DDs in Copp so they dont Ram the Enemy Bot DD and steal my Kill.

[Captain_Newman]

9 hours ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Yes I do get it, but I seriously don't think that is reasonable.
Apparently, you don't seem to get that punishing the player that launched the torps but weren't at fault promotes NOT USING torps! Because saying that the player who launched the torps is always at fault and it's responsibility, is the equivalent of saying it's alright to DELIBERATELY take torps, for what ever reason, even to harass and troll the other player. You can launch torps where there are NO ally players nearby your target or the torps trajectory, and somehow you end up hitting an ally because the ally changed direction after they were launched. Other players have responsibility for their actions as well you know.

 

It promotes not using the torps when there's a risk of hitting allies. In other words, correct torpedo usage is exactly what the system promotes. You might not agree what correct torpedo use is, and you would be flat out wrong. If in doubt, look at the profiles of people giving you advice here and compare to your own. Don't get discouraged, though, you're still quite new and if you become open to taking advice and learning there's still a chance you'll improve. That won't happen if you keep defending your own potato moves, though.

 

Yes, there are situations when you shouldn't use your torps even though they're reloaded. It's called having awareness and skill to know when and how to torp so you're a danger to the enemy team, not your own.

[InfinityIncarnate]

7 hours ago, Excavatus said:

Do not torp when there is an ally in the effective area.. AI or Player.. 

Your torps.. your responsibility.. This fact does not change when you "don't agree" with it :) 

 

Look at the bright side.. you are talking about "learning the torps, and how to use them" 

 

Lesson 1: when you torp from behind, you can hit allies.. 

Please do define the effective area!
-Why? Because what the effective area is, that is HIGHLY subjective

Lesson 1: You get punished for hitting ally players and bots for hitting them with your torps, even when they themselves were fully responsible for getting hit as they themselves changed direction which as a consequence lead to taking torps.
Lesson 2: When you launch torps from behind, you can hit allies..
Lesson 3: You can hit allies even when they were not nearby when the torps were launched.
Lesson 4: You can hit allies even when they're going in the completely different direction when the torps were launched.
Lesson 5: You can hit allies even when they're not even nearby AND going in the completely different direction when the torps were launched.
Lesson 6: You can hit allies even when launching from the front line.
Lesson 7: Other players don't have any responsibility in regards to avoid other players torps.
Lesson 8: Don't use torpedos!
Lesson 9: Some players will take your torps just to be a troll.
Lesson 10: You can harass other players with the TK-system.

Bottomline is, even when you try to take every possible action into consideration before launching the torps, it's still possible to actually hit an ally with torps - which is why it promotes not using torps at all.
I don't get pink status that often, it has happened occasionally but when I've hit an ally where it resulted in the pink status, the bot/player were not in front or nearby and/or were going in a completely different or the same direction as the torps.
Furthermore, the player/bot had to speed up and/or change their direction to take them, and the torps were within their detection range before making their direction and/or speed change - which is here they become responsible for taking the torps, because they were fully aware of the torps, their location and direction BEFORE they made adjustments to their speed and direction. I know you want to pin this on the torping player, which is why I'm saying, all of this promotes people not using torps or at least not until you're so close that you're absolutely sure no one else than the intended target will take them, because it can be almost impossible to anticipate if an ally player/bot will take the hit. It also promotes carelessness from other players, because they don't get punished for deliberately taking a torp, which also hurts the rest of the teams performance. Obviously, it's problematic to make the system be able to judge if it was on purpose or not, but nevertheless players who deliberately take torps to harass and troll other players, should get punished.

As a side question, where/how do I rate a match or dispute getting pink status? I know I can just play a few games, but personally I'd like to dispute the pink status, because it was a player/bot that deliberately took the torps which makes it unreasonable to punish me for it. And furthermore, I think it's important that they step up and deal with this problem, rather than just punish the torping player.

[CptBarney]

Bots when you get banned:

[Birkebein]

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

I by now just Ignore Allies when Torping.

General Opinion is. When your Torp Hits an Ally its your Fault. Even if that Ally is a Kleber using Speed Boost to Catch your Torps from behind....

 

So by now I decided to just Ignore wether or not a Friendly might be hit by my Torps.

Situations towards this are rare enough that beyond going Pink now and then nothing happens.

And since I dont Aim at Friendlies on Purpose WG doesnt care.

 

People think the Automatic TK Punishment System doesnt work.

But they are wrong. It works Perfectly Fine.

Thing is its intention is different from what Community thinks.

Community thinks its there to Punish People for hitting Friendlies.

But its not.

Its only for Punishing People that hit Friendlies on Purpose.

Hitting Friendlies on Accident every 10-20 Matches the System doesnt care about.

 

 

For coop the above is my SOP... anyone really worry about what happens in coop? (Hope not)

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Snip

 

Nope. The Lesson is that WGs Automatic TK Punishment System actually Filters out wether you are Repeatedly Attack Friendlies on Purpose or if the Attack on Friendlies was Accidental and thus goes Unpunished.

Because the Community Says. Being Pink is not a Punishment. Which means being Pink can be Ignored.

 

So the Lesson People should Take is to just not Worry about it and Throw Torps at Enemies. And if an Ally decides to Catch them be it by Accident or because he went out of his way to Catch them.

Then well. His Problem. You go Pink and in 2 Rounds your Normal again. Dont let it bother you. Wars in Reality were full of accidental Friendly Fire.

 

 

[ColonelPete]

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Lesson 1: You get punished for hitting ally players and bots for hitting them with your torps, even when they themselves were fully responsible for getting hit as they themselves changed direction which as a consequence lead to taking torps.
Lesson 2: When you launch torps from behind, you can hit allies..
Lesson 3: You can hit allies even when they were not nearby when the torps were launched.
Lesson 4: You can hit allies even when they're going in the completely different direction when the torps were launched.
Lesson 5: You can hit allies even when they're not even nearby AND going in the completely different direction when the torps were launched.
Lesson 6: You can hit allies even when launching from the front line.
Lesson 7: Other players don't have any responsibility in regards to avoid other players torps.
Lesson 8: Don't use torpedos!
Lesson 9: Some players will take your torps just to be a troll.
Lesson 10: You can harass other players with the TK-system.

1. The person launching the torps is responsible. No launching - no hitting.
2. Yes
3. Yes, when they are in front of you. See 2.
4. See 3
5. See 3
6. Only when you launch them in the direction of your allies, otherwise, no.
7. Yes
8. No
9. Yes
10. No. When you do not hit your allies, nothing happens. No matter what other people want.

1 hour ago, InfinityIncarnate said:

Bottomline is, even when you try to take every possible action into consideration before launching the torps, it's still possible to actually hit an ally with torps - which is why it promotes not using torps at all.

No. Just do not torp from second line and you are fine. My ships do that well. I have sunk over 2000 ships with torpedos.