Long Range Torpedo Dilemma

[Wolf_Harms]

Hey all. I'd like to put something up for discussion, about Long-Range Torpedos.
I got the YAHAGI recently and launched her 12 km-range, rather slow-running torpedos.
Two times I got banned from PvP now with a penalty, because own ships ran into them.

When I launched them, nobody was in the way or about to cross their paths.
But then DDs are very agile and change course rather often and randomly, and so they ran into them, and I got punished for it.

 

I think that is not only unfair - it makes using long-range torpedos almost impossible in the game.
I would like to make the following suggestion - perhaps the game could be changed in this way?

 

After launching torpedos and a runtime of 20 seconds, there should not be a punishment anymore.
Cause, every ship should notice friendly long range torpedos, when they don't get launched from close on.
An additional quick response button might be nice, where we could warn specific ships. It might look like:
"[Can]PlayerName to [Clan]PlayerName: WARNING! Watch for my long range torpedos!"

 

I'd like to hear your opinions for this, and would be very happy about any response from the Devs about this problem.
The penalty got higher the second time; I was banned from all but 12 Co-Op matches, before I could play PvP again.
I guess next time it will be even higher. That cannot be a good solution - it ruins fun in ships with long-range torps.

 

[GarrusBrutus]

5 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

Two times I got banned from PvP now with a penalty, because own ships ran into them.

"Two times I got sent you jail because children just ran in front of my car. When I pressed the gas, nobody was in the way of my vehicle or about to cross the road."

 

As said a million times already:

 

YOUR TORPS, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

 

And for crying out loud, do not fire torps from the second line like a frikkin pepega.

 

[ColonelPete]

7 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

I'd like to hear your opinions for this, and would be very happy about any response from the Devs about this problem.

The penalty got higher the second time; I was banned from all but 12 Co-Op matches, before I could play PvP again.
I guess next time it will be even higher. That cannot be a good solution - it ruins fun in ships with long-range torps.

No DD is faster than your torps. That means when a DD is behind you, he cannot catch your torps.

When your torps hit a DD, they have to be in front of you, before you launch them.

 

Pay more attention!

[PeteEarthling]

8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

No DD is faster than your torps.

Actually, I have seen some CC overtaking his own torps on youtube. I guess those speed boosts in arms race (?) were responsible.

[Wolf_Harms]

Brutus and Pete - your answers are rather short-viewed and a bit dim.
A fragile cruiser would NOT sail front of the lines. It would want to use the long range torpedos from a distance. That's why I made this suggestions.
Your answers rather sound like: I don't wanna care - I never sail cruisers or DDs anyway.

 

A bit more openness and creativity would be nice - perhaps the problem CAN be solved.

I am not willing to stop using such cruisers - and I am NOT willing to take such penalties.
In a real Navy, I could warn my forward boats about the launch.

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, PeteEarthling said:

Actually, I have seen some CC overtaking his own torps on youtube. I guess those speed boosts in arms race (?) were responsible.

That is a special mode, which is not active at the moment.

1 minute ago, Wolf_Harms said:

Your answers are rather short-viewed and a bit dim.
A fragile cruiser would want to use the long range torpedos from a distance. That's why I made this suggestions.
Your answers rather sound like: I don't wanna care - I never sail cruisers or DDs anyway.

 

A bit more openness and creativity would be nice - perhaps the problem CAN be solved.

I am not willing to stop using such cruisers - and I am NOT willing to take such penalties.
In a real Navy, I could warn my forward boats about the launch.

And you still can. Just be careful with friendlies around.

I have the Yahagi myself and I am able to launch torps without hitting my teammates.

[Wolf_Harms]

2 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

And you still can. Just be careful with friendlies around.

I have the Yahagi myself and I am able to launch torps without hitting my teammates.

The maps are mostly too crowded for any "peaceful" launching.
Of course I HAVE launched them many times without hitting anyone.
But then I also had these incidents, and last time I even wrote to the player who turned back - but he wasn't reading.
CHAT is not like radio call. That's why I think there should be found a better solution.

[PeteEarthling]

Yoshino has 20km torps. You do NOT want to be near the frontline with Yoshino if there is no compelling reason. If you have 16 tubes, those are a major part of your entire firepower, and if others insist on rules of engagement which make it pretty much impossible to use them, the next thing to happen will be those same people calling you a camper if you adhere to those rules of engagement.

 

Compromise: Wait in spawn until the enemy team has obliterated enough of your team that you become part of the frontline, then join the game. 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

30 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

"[Can]PlayerName to [Clan]PlayerName: WARNING! Watch for my long range torpedos!"

 

 

 

Some sort of quick command like this would be the handiest. Typing in chat is an awkward way to tell people 'Torpedoes in the water!'.

[Verblonde]

10 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

I'd like to hear your opinions for this, and would be very happy about any response from the Devs about this problem.

First, and as per usual: what your torps hit is *always* your fault. No ifs or buts. Always.

 

I'm afraid this is a - very common - L2P issue; the trick is to develop your situational awareness such that you know where all your allies are, and where they could be at the end of your torps' run-time. To start with, if it is physically possible for you to hit an ally, don't fire; assess this with reference to your mini-map (and, as a general point, make sure it's a large as possible, and shows as much information as you can cope with). Once you've got the hang of this - and it's habit-formed - you can start layering the more risky shots back in again, only they will now be better judged such that your general return on your torp use will generally exceed the costs to your side.

 

Some more specific observations/responses:

 

18 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

Two times I got banned from PvP now with a penalty, because own ships ran into them.

To actually get banned from PvP takes quite a lot of effort and multiple egregious instances of friendly fire; if this has happened to you twice, you *really* need to learn the above lessons.

 

20 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

it makes using long-range torpedos almost impossible in the game.

12 km torps are actually pretty average ranged for the game overall; if you can't handle them, you're going to struggle even more at higher tiers. Long-ranged torps are actually extremely easy to use, if you've taken the time to get the hang of situational awareness; quite apart from anything else, they mean you're often less exposed when firing. Do bear in mind though that the further away you fire from, the greater the chances are of someone spotting your torps and/or changing course/speed; it's often better to save torps for closer ranged shots (area denial excepted).

 

24 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

YAHAGI

Yahagi is a cruiser (no sh*t, Sherlock!); as a general rule, your torps aren't your primary weapon - your guns are. Yes, torps can do cataclysmic damage, but the peculiarities of cruisers (not much armour, a citadel, average concealment at best) mean that you will often struggle to use them; don't be tempted to fire just because you can - save them for when they may actually be effective (and you won't hit allies).

 

26 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

After launching torpedos and a runtime of 20 seconds, there should not be a punishment anymore.

Nonsense. I'm afraid you need to adjust your mental benchmarks a bit: 20 secs isn't that long; to provide an extreme example, Black can more or less reload her torp launchers completely in the time it takes her fish to reach maximum range! To repeat, this is just a practice/learning thing.

 

As a final note: learning to use torps effectively isn't idiot-proof, and cruisers (because they aren't meant to/can't fire them that frequently, if you're not doing it wrong) are often a poor tool for learning the basic necessary skills; I'd strongly suggest practicing more with your IJN torp boats - they're *supposed* to fire lots of torps and will give you the sheer number of shots fired to start to get the hang of this stuff in a more useful time-frame...

[ColonelPete]

Just now, Wolf_Harms said:

The maps are mostly too crowded for any "peaceful" launching.
Of course I HAVE launched them many times without hitting anyone.

Then do more of that and less of hitting friendlies. Then the problem is solved without the need to change the game.

[ThePurpleSmurf]

22 minutes ago, GarrusBrutus said:

YOUR TORPS, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

Nope, not always. Sometimes teammates should have at least more than 2 working brain cells and eyes in their skull too.

[PeteEarthling]

Just now, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Some sort of quick command like this would be the handiest. Typing in chat is an awkward way to tell people 'Torpedoes in the water!'.

If my teammates show brain activity, I make the effort to type TORPS and then ping the projected path on the map. Sometimes they get the subtile clue.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

1 minute ago, PeteEarthling said:

If my teammates show brain activity, I make the effort to type TORPS and then ping the projected path on the map. Sometimes they get the subtile clue.

 

Likewise.

[Verblonde]

Just now, ThePurpleSmurf said:

Nope, not always.

Yes, always. The firer has to take into account the possibility that the player potentially in the way of their torps is a blithering idiot; but, if they are, and get hit it is still the firer's fault. You just have to make the best judgement you can, and decide whether or not to fire on the basis of a quick cost/benefit analysis.

 

3 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Some sort of quick command like this would be the handiest. Typing in chat is an awkward way to tell people 'Torpedoes in the water!'.

I'm not convinced this would be a good idea: I suggest it would encourage people to abdicate responsibility for their own torps ("I told him I was firing, so not my problem, even if dodging the friendly torps would have, say, exposed his broadside to that Yamato over there..").

[DFens_666]

21 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

Brutus and Pete - your answers are rather short-viewed and a bit dim.
A fragile cruiser would NOT sail front of the lines. It would want to use the long range torpedos from a distance. That's why I made this suggestions.
Your answers rather sound like: I don't wanna care - I never sail cruisers or DDs anyway.

 

Why do you have more right to throw your torps (which are a minor part of your armament btw) than a DD trying to play the game closer to the frontline than you, because he needs to spot for his teammates, doesnt have the gunrange and also not even the torprange you have?

People demanding that they should dodge friendly torps often ignore, that they might open themselves up to enemy fire by trying to dodge your torps. If i have to choose between taking a friendly torp, or getting severe damage from enemies, ill always take the friendly torp. Im not gifting enemies damage because someone torps my path.

[PeteEarthling]

Just now, Verblonde said:

The firer has to take into account the possibility that the player potentially in the way of their torps is a blithering idiot

The loss of a blithering idiot should not significantly weaken the average team. 

[GarrusBrutus]

12 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

Brutus and Pete - your answers are rather short-viewed and a bit dim.

No, they're not.

Yes, you have longe range torpedoes and i know you want to use them. Simple fact is: You cannot use them unless you get into the right position to use them.

This often means you can only use them later on in the match when you're kiting on a flank, or when all DDs have died and you're the "frontline" ship.

13 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

Your answers rather sound like: I don't wanna care - I never sail cruisers or DDs anyway.

[Verblonde]

Just now, PeteEarthling said:

The loss of a blithering idiot should not significantly weaken the average team. 

Indubitably, but our OP was whinging about getting banned from PvP due to incompetence with torps (paraphrasing), so I was mainly thinking about avoiding that.

 

[Karasu_Browarszky]

5 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

 

I'm not convinced this would be a good idea: I suggest it would encourage people to abdicate responsibility for their own torps ("I told him I was firing, so not my problem, even if dodging the friendly torps would have, say, exposed his broadside to that Yamato over there..").

 

Well, I'd like to assume they would have enough situational awareness not to launch their torps directly at a friendly ship that close. I was thinking more of the situation where there is a possibility that friendly ships will intercept your torps somewhere further away in which case an alert would make them aware of it. Ultimately, the game will see to it that the responsibility cannot be abdicated as they will go pink if they do friendly damage. It might, however, reduce the chance of accidental hits.

[Verblonde]

2 minutes ago, Karasu_Hidesuke said:

Well, I'd like to assume they would have enough situational awareness not to launch their torps directly at a friendly ship that close.

I suspect you may have a more positive view of the average member of the player base/humanity in general than I tend to have, especially by the middle of Sunday after several hours of weekend play...!

[ThePurpleSmurf]

7 minutes ago, Verblonde said:

Yes, always.

I once killed a Leningrad or better said, he suicided like the most braindead player i have ever seen. What happened was this. I played my Black on map Hotspot and i was fighting 2 enemy DDs in the middle B cap. I had to run because i was out of radar but there was still a Benson in the B cap sitting in a smoke and capping. I launched my glorious 43 knot torps from nearly max range at the smoke. During all this time there was no friendly ship even remotely close to B cap. A friendly Leningrad who was capping C at that time decided now is a good time to speed boost from C into B and rush the Benson smoke. He pushed straight into B and died in the enemy smoke to my torps that were in the water for at least 40-50 seconds at this point. He ignored chat warnings, map pings, the torps alert sound and the torp indicator on his screen. More braindead is not possible and this TK was 100% not my fault.

[Karasu_Browarszky]

Just now, Verblonde said:

I suspect you may have a more positive view of the average member of the player base/humanity in general than I tend to have, especially by the middle of Sunday after several hours of weekend play...!

 

I don't. I was once in a game on a BB, stationary near an island with a 'friendly' DD next to me less than a ship's lenght apart. The DD fired a full salvo of torps right into my port side....

[22cm]

33 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

 

This is called a second line torping, its a nub mistake. You never do second line torping.

 

Basicly, unless there is no one in your front (so you are in the first line of your team), you don t torp, and just wait for your time.

[ForlornSailor]

51 minutes ago, Wolf_Harms said:

I guess next time it will be even higher. That cannot be a good solution - it ruins fun in ships with long-range torps.

 

How do you think, I feel in my DD, when I not even have to pay attention to enemy planes spotting me, enemy DDs spotting me and red ships shooting me + red torps from the front BUT also your torps from behind? And you really expect me to dodge them? you dont even care that for you "fun long range torps" I have to run towards the enemy, leave my smoke, go broadside to the enemys & lose massive health or even die?

 

4 minutes ago, ThePurpleSmurf said:

I once killed a Leningrad or better said, he suicided like the most braindead player i have ever seen. What happened was this. I played my Black on map Hotspot and i was fighting 2 enemy DDs in the middle B cap. I had to run because i was out of radar but there was still a Benson in the B cap sitting in a smoke and capping. I launched my glorious 43 knot torps from nearly max range at the smoke. During all this time there was no friendly ship even remotely close to B cap. A friendly Leningrad who was capping C at that time decided now is a good time to speed boost from C into B and rush the Benson smoke. He pushed straight into B and died in the enemy smoke to my torps that were in the water for at least 40-50 seconds at this point. He ignored chat warnings, map pings, the torps alert sound and the torp indicator on his screen. More braindead is not possible and this TK was 100% not my fault.

 

There are very rare occasions, where this is true. 99,95% of the times its the fault of the guy who is torping tho, as in the case of OP.