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TST - Submarines Feedback thread

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[WG]
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Commanders!

 

We would like to ask you to share your personal experience and feedback from Submarine Battles on TST server in this particular thread!

 

Please edit your messages, stay only on feedback and don't debate here. If you would like to debate about submarines, please do so in other threads.

Posts, that won't follow these rules will be hidden. 

 

Thanks for understanding and good luck in Submarine Battles!

 

 

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[ARIA]
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I completed 8k base EXP mission with destroyers.

I didn't get the flag reward on my live account as stated. I'm instead pretty sure they were delivered to that test server where they are completly useless.

 

Sub HP bars are confusing for enemys. They change from red to blacked out - without seeing any reason for this.

Subs also disappear suddenly, probably by deep diving. But still it's quite confusing to see when a sub can be shot with guns or depth charges.

 

ASW planes from CA/BBs are a joke. They do abysmal damage of maybe 1000-1500 HP for a full drop of 8 DC even when aligned perfectly on the course of a sub.

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[NIKE]
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Sub torps seem to have a very hard time homing on enemy subs, even if they are making no effort to manoeuvre.

 

I also dont get the HP switch to black, or what thats suppossed to signify.

 

 

Im also fairly sure I shouldnt be able to do depth charge damage to an enemy DD by using the BB ASW planes to carpet bomb his smoke, especially as every BB/CA has these

shot-20_10.22_17_09.36-0423.thumb.jpg.1ec479d75b4432bc0b23ace8932848ba.jpg

 

Rhe ascend/decend time is much better.

 

I like that some areas are very shallow, so the deep dive cant be used.

 

What was the reason for making the sub echo (that shows ocean floor) manual? It doesnt seem to affect the sub being detected, so not sure why its no longer automatic

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Weekend Tester
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Why can't I login with this account, my main account? It refuses login due to technical problems. My alt does work.

 

Edit: ok, here is an idea: could it be my name gets too long when you add _eu ?

Edit 2: did some testing, names are capped at my length+2. So yeah, if I had to bet, my money would be on exactly that.

@YabbaCoe

 

shot-20.10.22_18.35.25-0369.jpg

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[SOLOS]
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Good to see that Västeras is not a destroyer anymore...

Should it be like that or is that a mistake?
 

västeras.jpg

västeras2.jpg

 

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Versterås dont have ASW weapons, so useless as a DD.

 

I had 26 hits to a sub and survived, had there been any other ships they would for sure killed me during my sub hunting.

Subs Can suddenly be invisible.

The speed of the sub are unrealistic.

A DD Can now be spotted for the rest of the enemy team by Planes, Radar and now Subs.

Airplane drooped charges Can be used to carpet bomb DD`s In their smoke screen.

 

please fix the following.

 

Spotting mechanic

A sub should not be able to survive 26 hits and still have a lot of HP left.

Aridropped charges should not be used as carpet bombs In smokescreens.

 

Or justforget all about it and un invent them, alternative make a seperate gamemode for them.

Edited by bai7200
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Why is every (IJN?) ship fully researched but not Leander (and maybe others)? I mean yes, you get some nice flags and camos without knowing what to do with them until you have used them and find out about that?

 

And yes, you can hit subs with those ASW planes, but the damage they do is ridicolous.

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First impressions, CV and subs won't work in the same game, it has to be either or.

 

With 3 subs and 3 DD there's so little AA cover that even novice CV players won't need to worry about it.

 

More generally it feels like there's a lot less for cruisers and BB to do in the game, the game just feels a lot more "empty".

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I actually want only mention two things, that I'm still missing, so I put the postive feedback just into the spoiler:

 

Spoiler

Overall the submarine gameplay feels now really good. I'm still not 100% sure about spotting mechanic, and if pinging now reveals position or if that is removed, it seems a ping it self doesn't reveal the own position except the ping it. If that's the case, then I like it that way. All changes feel so much better.

 

  • ASW aircrafts are really cool designed, they are fun!
  • The G-sonar ping is pretty much fun. It's some handy function for the surrounds and had some situation where is was like "Oh no, an island, hope there is nothing in my way - G-button and check". I have fun with that mechanic
  • I think the DD change is fair, that they can spot the SS from distance, though haven't played DD yet and with the bots and all the TST players it's quite chaotic and not the normal circumstances.

 

What I'm really missing:

 


1. Periscope Depth


There is really not difference in surfaced of periscope depth and that feels weird. 5.9m below surface is still surface, so there is no  reason to stay above 5.9m and that is a very weird design. We need a function for periscope depth! Max speed only at 0m surface and not below surface!

How I would change it:

  • Max speed only at 0m surface
  • Surface ships can't be pinged when deep dived or torpedos can't raise much
  • (Might consider a concealment buff on periscop depth)
  • Periscope-Interface only at Periscope-depth

 

The gameplay works without this changes and without Periscope depth, but for a good immersion and feeling it's extremly important to have a periscop depth. 2nd world war submarines are about torping ships at periscope depth....

 


2. Deck guns


In every Test phase I wished I had deck guns, so often I see low HP targets, or I can't make a turn and die anyways. I would be able to use at least some shots with a deck gun or just to de-cap, distract or what ever.

How I would change it:

  • Might consider 1/4 pen for submarines
  • Fast reload
  • Very high accuracy (Like Yubari with the unique Mod)
  • DD like range 10-12km

 

We don't need deck guns, but they are extremly fun to use just like secondaries on some ships. We don't need secondaries, but we still have them, especially on cruisers?!

 

 

Edit #2

 


3. Maxium Depth (80m)


When at maxium depth, the DCs can't hit and it seems, that the submarine becomes completly invisible. I kinda like that, though a Submarine should also lose at that depth any spotting cabability. At 80m the sub should be blind and invisible.

The visuals down there are very thrilling, it's dark and hiding from a DD, very much fun, but the Sub should be blind to add more thrill and more fairness against DDs.

 

 

Edited

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31 minutes ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

Ok so I have just logged in, clicked on Submarines, I have no submarines, where did they go?

 

They have to be earned, either through completing the mission chain, or get lucky and have one pop out early from one of the containers.

 

Presumably designed so that there's enough of an in-game population of surface ships to ensure the test gives meaningful results.

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Just now, Capra76 said:

 

They have to be earned, either through completing the mission chain, or get lucky and have one pop out early from one of the containers.

 

Presumably designed so that there's enough of an in-game population of surface ships to ensure the test gives meaningful results.

Really, I don't remember it being like this the last time, strange considering they want feedback, currently re installing the test server.

 

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[CPC]
[CPC]
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Some quick feedbacks !

 

As a BB, I think that :

  • the seaplanes to attack SM are okay and quite intuitive to use, I only regret that you can't choose the orientation of their attack
  • the seaplanes can take damage from AAA but can't spot ships, this is not normal !! Choose between the 2 : either they don't take damage and don't spot, either they can take damage and can spot ...
  • the marker to localize the SM is an improvment but it looks too much like a ship marker, so it can make you think that the SM is there immobile
  • the highlighted area of your ship when you are pinged is not visible enough, especially on big BB as you tend to put the camera on the other side to tur nyour guns toward the submarine

 

As a SM, I think that :

  • I don't like having to spam G to see the surroundings of my ship
  • the new interface to see when a ship is pinged and on long it will remain pinged is nice and well done
  • telling the SM player when a target can't be hit by torpedoes is good
  • the ping an area then ping it again to have homing torpedoes seems balanced
  • the torpedoes seem to lack agility, but it may come formthe factthat I faced mostly human players intead of bots for this test.
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3 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

They have to be earned, either through completing the mission chain, or get lucky and have one pop out early from one of the containers.

 

Presumably designed so that there's enough of an in-game population of surface ships to ensure the test gives meaningful results.

I had 1 (through a container) when I arrived on the server, maybe it comes to the fact if you participated to previous tests or not.

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This is my first submarine test. I really enjoyed.
I started with Destroyers hunt for submarines with depth charges. I just see one bug when submarine died (just visible on the top team bar as no more subs) the red target pointer while line and the white circle still was visible not removed.
I hit/killed submarine with depth charges from destroyer and also with the warship attacking planes.
When attacking with destroyer could be interesting if we can set 2 or 3 depth value like low, medium, deep and somehow try determine where is the submarine. In real life that is the sonar ping used by ships. But we use those for submarine attacking not problem for me.
About Warship attacking planes what is missing for me how to rotate those area just I can send them out in star direction point from the warship to the distance. So if example submarine going parallel with me hard to hit. More easier when they try to attack me. I was able attack parallel a another warship with main guns and the attacking airplanes send to close submarine from about 45degree difference due the timing between reload gun and attack planes was close to each other. Both have successful hits registered. 

I also hit subs with heat guns. That was easy job due he is just start descent when I shoot below water. That is could be interesting when you hunt a submarine with destroyer into shallow water and attack them with gun. Just ships unable detect sea deep level nor visible in map.
We attacked one submarine with two destroyer: I was the second to about 300meter behind the first. That was cool/good if he makes error (like sub try escape to right) I made correction and he is unable to avoid my charges. So two cooperating destroyer easily kill a submarine.

When I played with submarine. 1-2 game was necessary to learn mechanics after that I getting be a real danger for any cruiser or warships.
Nice story: When a cruiser would like attack me arrive direct to me and I was about 20meter. I shoot a pair of torpedoes and pinging him then he turn back run away and I hunting them until near end of the game area and died finally. 
Double ping I think fine in that actual implementation. If the target cruiser maneuvering hard to hit same sector again. That was also very nice to see if the cruiser was smart enough to totally change direction so I see their left side pinged and then turn as right visible I need to make the ping again, but if not lucky torpedoes run away meanwhile.
What is not 100% clean the depth charges avoidance. With enable 80meters with button T can goes down where they unable hit me. Of course just on those cases if not on shallow waters. But when I was about 20-45meter distance had a battle when totally not see depth charges exploded around the ship but hit registered.

I am not running to any issue related to battery out limits. If small just set to 1/4 speed and charge back. That is not a reality. I can make full 15min battle without ever go up to surface. Surface recharging (fresh air) least 1-2 times per full battle I think not a big deal. Example they can keep below the water but need to go up to surface if would like recharge batteries for for few seconds. All of the submarines was distance limited in water except nuclear ones. That is also give possibility to surface ship as detect them and shoot with guns.
I think more gameplay necessary with batteries just limited speed not enough. They could be totally running out of battery (need to keep quite in deep water and unable escape like destroyer blocking him) and need to go up vertically like they to only with ballast.

What else not clean for me how the airplanes (not the warship attack planes) from carrier could be a danger to submarine. Why is carrier unable drop depth charges for the attacking submarine. At the moment the carrier vs. submarine not a balanced fight. I just see carriers running away if they can. I also attacked carrier with submarine on surface and not need to afraid about their airplanes.

 

Surface ships gives me too many information about ships in map. In real life if you submerge you have just your own info. Isn't be better if I need to up to 6 meters as get the ships position over ship radios?

 

Submarine vs. submarine battle:
- We made in about 20-30meter deep. Only problem was when we going around circle unable to turn after each other. Is it quicker turn if slow down? My enemy running into trouble as shallow water need to ascend up.

 

My best results with subs:

- send out (hunting) a cruiser to map edge with my submarine,
- 8 hits with torpedoes in single battle,
- killed a warship with my torpedo and a cruiser with fire (I think also caused by torpedo) in same battle

- killing submarine with submarine who is meanwhile afraid about my team destroyer :)
I am a dangerous submarine captain :)

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2 minutes ago, Jackson_4c said:

 I just see one bug when submarine died (just visible on the top team bar as no more subs) the red target pointer while line and the white circle still was visible not removed.

That's what I said in my post : this is not a ship marker, this is a marker to tell you that a submarine is nearby, but it looks so much like a ship marker that you misstake for it, I made the same mistake !!

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Alright, had a couple of battles, might as well share my early observations...

 

Playing as a carrier:

 

  • Where are depth-charge dropping planes? You can make do without detection, but to truly be able to engage a submarine you need depth-charge munitions! :etc_red_button:
  • Interface improvements are... okay, but it doesn't really fix the core issue of this hybrid nature - yes, I know that my CV is now being spotted/torpedoed/etc... So, what am I supposed to do about it? :Smile_amazed:I still think RTS was a better choice...  :Smile_sceptic:

 

Battleship:

 

  • Okay, it has a way to fight submarines... I'd even say that it is a bit too powerful... Now imagine if we had these while we still had RTS mode... :cap_yes:
  • Too powerful in a way that it is multipurpose now - being able to damage surface ships is cool... But can I choose different types of bombs for these planes? :cap_look:

 

Cruiser:

 

  • Varies a bit depending on available weaponry... for depth-charge dropping planes - pretty much the same applies as battleships, just a bit less, as you can call in only 1. :cap_hmm:

 

Destroyer:

 

  • I guess the only real problem would be that it is TOO GOOD at hunting submarines... :cap_cool: They have far greater mobility and maneuverability that submarines are basically doomed without the help of allies or well-calculated decisions (or just stealthily not bothering at all). :fish_happy:

 

Submarines:

They... Are the most problematic.

  • Hydrophone interaction is... weird - why do I need to keep waiting 15 seconds? Can I have an option to keep it automated, if it really is necessary in the game? :Smile_amazed:
  • Depth controls... Uh... They are also weird - when controlling the planes, you don't really have the option to control altitude, but here... It sort of gives you an idea of performing some cool maneuvers with depth and rudder controls, but the submarine underwater is simply too slow to perform them. At least, the ones we have here. If we really want to keep the arcade type pace here we really need some POWERFUL boosts for these subs (If this resembled cold waters more, the Conn, knuckle formed! sound should be heard every 10 seconds as minimum). :Smile_sceptic:
  • Fire control... On the surface - Yeah, I guess it is manageable - the lead indicator is there, you could hit the enemy even without acoustic (or fake acoustic, as we currently have) guidance. Still, why do we have such weird firing angles? Why can't we- Or you know what? forget it - this is not silent hunter 3, where torpedoes turn after you fire them... Though, I would appreciate the ability to control each tube individually, rather than fire in the groups of 2... :Smile_unsure::Smile_smile:
  • Below surface... And here... The real game begins In terms of you needing to use that pinging to actually do anything. :Smile-angry: Can I control the depth of a torpedo? Indirectly, depends on your own sub's depth... Speed of the torpedo? No. Well, with captain's skill, I guess..? guidance system? This (fake) acoustic guidance system is the only one. And it only works with pings... :Smile_sceptic:

So basically, we need these submarines to be at least late world war 2 (prototypes) to actually be more in tune with the arcade nature of the game, even early cold war era nuclear attack submarines, with more ways to guide torpedoes (and still have a logical explanation for why we can stay that long underwater). With this arrangement, they could serve the game as a... stealthy glass cannons, a bit like some long-range torpedo carrying destroyers that we have now. :cap_hmm:

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Ok, so here goes my 1st ever post... 

Played subs in both previous editions and this in this prime sesion I got it all done as well. 

Only played U-69 (even got a 5 frag victory) and S-1, as Cachalot wasn't in the containers so far. 

I will first share my general opinion about subs. 

 

Pro: 

+ good speed both forward and reverse

+ good rate of diving / surfacing

+ for T6 it's a reasonable amount of HP

+/- good damage for torps (it feels OP in some situations when you get both pings correctly) 

+ good ping speed 

+ very nice feature that HE and Rockets can damage subs less than 10m depth 

 

Cons:

- The battery lasts more than enough. Never had problems with it even if for short periods i spammed my pings at enemy targets. 

 

- hard to maneuver in combat situations where you need to make more than 2 actions at a time. For example: strafing and deep diving while also trying to ping / launch from back or front (depending on your situation). An automated dive / raise command would help as you can combine it with Q/E and focus further on the targeting.

 

- Sub VRS Sub = impossible to kill by torps no matter the distance you shoot from ( 2/4/6+ km). Only killed 2 by ramming them. 

 

- Subs VRS DDs = extremly hard if the dd is even at half speed. The fact that the torps are unguided on their last 1km makes them easy to dodge for DDs. 

-- Furthermore, deep charges by dds do not do "variable damage" depending on the depth. Got killed the same way at 10m depth, 30m depth or 70m depth. Even more, the only real safe zone is at dead 80m depth (achievable only using deep dive consumable). You take damage from deep charges even at 78m so... don't really seems to be that variable. 

--- A close encounter with a DD without being at 80m depth mostly means you get killed, as the dmg done by charges is... extremely high. 

 

- Subs VRS Cruisers = mostly turns out to be a challenging equal matchup but double ping-ing them can cripple them if a full 4 torp salvo connects... 

 

- Subs VRS BBs = easy to score torps, easy to land pings. Only way they can protect is by changing the side they got pinged from. But weak overall protection as the planes truly do minor damage. Closing distance to subs (2,5km) is very efficient as it kills your room for maneuver. Even if you dont kill the sub, its very hard for him to torp you without going to 10m depth (exposure to HE dmg and insta-death). 

 

versus CVs i have yet to gather enough encounters to make an impression.

 

- The terrain features lots of areas where the depth is less than 80m. Great feature but not cool for subs players since you dont get to know them untill you step into them. This makes it very hard to plan ahead or to choose and escaped route since you don't have a map of depths (as I said before, any deep charge by dds less than 80m can easily kill you) 

.

- The hydrophone must be manually used by pressing G every 15 sec. I find this upsetting since you already have a lot of commands to jiggle with. In intense battle encounters, your least worry is to sonar the surroundings... 

 

- The ping width/speed are standard. Having to choose from small width/fast speed and normal width/regular speed, makes it more challenging for sub players and for the overall tactical game. 

 

- The overall aiming sistem needs to be improved and by this I mean the accuracy and the predictability of the impact (especially when double pinging). For example, you could try to make the double pinged torps to be guided untill 0,5km and regular pinged untill 1km.

 

Some specific notes about U-69

- i found the hydro acoustics consumable very useless. Reasons: low range => useless against enemy subs (since combat is impossible) and useless against dds hiding in smoke since it would mean to get less than 4km to them, risking A LOT. Only combined with deep dive consumable but it seems a lot of effort only to scout some dds, exposing your position and being subjected to later killing. 

 

/////

Later edit:

- I cannot tell if a sub turns faster at 1/4 speed, half or maybe full speed. It would be nice to know if and how the turning speed is affected by ships speed. The feedback on its maneuverability is still a subject I'm trying to get a grasp on. 

 

+ A good way of maximizing your chances to connect your torps is to launch from surface at the predicted trajectory (like regular DD), dive and late-ping at your target, when your torps are 3-4km away. It implies a lot of planning and constantly watching the course of your target for any shifts but it can make a big difference when going for a surprise attack. 

/////

 

Some specific notes about S1

- The health regen consumable can come in handy but overall i dont think most of the players will get to use more than 1 charge. Subs are fragile and making contact with enemy dds will either get you killed or get the dd killed by your teammates. 

 

To sum up, I must agree with someone that already stated above. Subs make the game feel a lot more thinner. By this i mean that your main targets are BBs and sometimes cruisers but... with 2-3 subs, 4 dds and 1 cv there is often very little "torping material" left for subs. I had a game with only 2 bbs and it felt really empty on the batllefield. Consider maybe making grand-battles for subs and cvs so everyone can have a chance to shot something. 

 

Looking forward for the next prime session! Cheers. 

Edited by WhiteShorty69
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So far, I've had no complaints with regards to BB and CA submarine interaction. In a Pensecola, I scored a Kraken including one sub kill - the change from artillery to ASW planes and back felt very smooth and intuitive. Sailing my Lyons, I got into trouble fighting a submarine and a BB at the same time - which felt fitting in hindsight. Yes, I was at a distinct disadvantage as my only support was another BB, but I was not utterly powerless. I got a few licks in with the ASW planes but ultimately had to choose between angling my armour at incoming fire, dodging the torpedoes, and getting my turrets swung around the correct way. It really does feel like a good counter.

 

I have yet to try the other classes. Gave the Dallas a try but I got too greedy and died to a Fuso before I could get charges away.

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OK, so I guess this test iteration is… an improvement… over the last one. Just to make that clear: I guess submarines are here to stay by now, but I wouldn't exactly be sad if WG were to announce that they would stay confined to their own gamemode or even scrapped altogether…

 

Visually it looks great, and ASW planes are a well-designed mechanic so far (except for their non--sub damage potential), maybe give the oprtion to rotate their attack run direction? The changes to the submarine pings are also going into the right direction in my opinion, though there is definitely the need for some kind of notification if you get pinged (maybe something similar to the RPF direction indicator, also giving you the direction from which the ping came for a few seconds?). And the spotting changes were also necessary and are an elegant solution to the problem at hand.

 

What I didn't like before and what I still don't like are homing torpedoes. It just makes BBs play too static defensive by massively punishing pushing BBs. I think that taking the torpedo protection away from them is just not balanced, and it is just too punishing if you eat four torpedoes to the citadel just because you weren't able to turn your pinged section out of the torpedo's path fast enough. Personally I would advocate for a complete removal of the entire homing mechanic, but since that is kind of unrealistic by now, how about this idea: Instead of permanently locking on to a pinged ship's section as long as the ping lasts, remove that timer and let the torpedoes turn in on an ideal interception course once whenever a ping lands while just running straight otherwise. That way submarine players would have to actually hit multiple pings on a target in order to guide their torpedoes to their target while giving those targets more of a dodging chance. Compensation for this nerf could, for example, be a reduced ping cooldown/recharge.

 

The current battery mechanics still don't force a submarine to surface. Just bring back oxygen instead ofw or in addition to battery. In my opinion there needs to be a hardcoded way to make submarines surface every now and then. And by surface I mean surface completely or be penalised, such as a massively slowed down oxygen recharge if you're only at periscope depth. Or that mechanic of being able to take up oxyen could even be limited to specific submarines/tech trees/nations which historically had the technology to do so.

 

And lastly I'd love to see the implementation of deck guns. They would be quite handy sometimes and would probably give submarine gameplay some additional depth (no pun intended), and could in some cases maybe even double as AA weapons, for what it would be worth…

 

I think that's it. Please take your time with submarines, they have the potential to seriously harm the game.

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Seems they improved submarine gameplay tremendously, I'm glad. The danger of the game feeling emptier I understand. Maybe an oxygen mechanic to force submarines to surface would be a good thing. Also, re: DDs. They should be absolutely deadly, subs really shouldn't have a prayer against them (other than diving or a wild, stray torpedo, perhaps).

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