General Submarines related discussions

[Sprockett]

50 minutes ago, Pan_Kalich said:

Ofc, there are many whiners who hate submarines in a similar fashion that players hate on CV :D ... imho most of them either suck at it or never tried one ... Alas, you guys cant make everyone happy and I get that the game needs to evolve.

 really lets bring Nuke weapons at the beginning of the match and one shot the whole enemy team... 

Subs are not good for this Game in RANDOMS. would be excellent in Convoys with Flower Class corvettes and DDs primarily hunting them. Make the subs better for that game mode... convoy has to get through win or loose.. 

 

I do not get why in Randoms? CV - I get (though badly implemented and broken)  - but subs avoided all Warships generally and went for cargo ships... esp the Kreigsmarine - in this mode with the very unrealistic speeds in relation to the surface ships, to the fact that there is no ASDEC to track a sub when underwater - what they have brought in here is a neich class - that they will rinse at the cost of all the other classes - even the precious CVs - for they are (Wargambling that is) following the SUNK cost fallacy in regards to the SUBS development.  A good sub game should be built from the SUB upwards not as in this case from the Warship downwards.  They feel broken and out of place with what this game originally started as.

 

I would have no issues playing subs in their own game mode. But to be straight I prefer surface ships and their interaction physics.  AS this game was originally built for. 

 

 

[Pan_Kalich]

Před 6 minutami Sprockett řekl/a:

 really lets bring Nuke weapons at the beginning of the match and one shot the whole enemy team... 

Subs are not good for this Game in RANDOMS. would be excellent in Convoys with Flower Class corvettes and DDs primarily hunting them. Make the subs better for that game mode... convoy has to get through win or loose.. 

 

I do not get why in Randoms? CV - I get (though badly implemented and broken)  - but subs avoided all Warships generally and went for cargo ships... esp the Kreigsmarine - in this mode with the very unrealistic speeds in relation to the surface ships, to the fact that there is no ASDEC to track a sub when underwater - what they have brought in here is a niece class - that they will rinse at the cost of all the other classes - even the precious CVs - for they are (Wargambling that is) following the SUNK cost fallacy in regards to the SUBS development.  A good sub game should be built from the SUB upwards not as in this case from the Warship downwards.  They feel broken and out of place with what this game originally started as.

 

I would have no issues playing subs in their own game mode. But to be straight I prefer surface ships and their interaction physics.  AS this game was originally built for. 

 

 

Yes, I agree with you to a degree. While subs were mostly use at hunting cargo ships, cases when they attacked combat vessels are/were not rare. For instace Indianapolis was sunk by Japanese sub (one example out of many)

 

Yes it is somehow "distant" from standard mode, but on the other hand, nobody is forcing you to play the sub if you dont want that. If someone enjoys playing half of the game with little idea whats going on on the surface, then let him do that (as long as he contributes to the team). 

 

I think if they limit one sub per team the same way they have with CV, it might actually help ... or two max. Although at this stage every ship has counterplay against subs now, so the question is if it is really needed.
 

[Aethervoxx]

34 minutes ago, Sprockett said:

Convoys with Flower Class corvettes and DDs primarily hunting them.

I don't think WG can recognize a good idea staring them in the face. It wasn't their idea. They didn't approve it. The players are wrong.  The  WG management is right (the Boss says so).

The Holy SpreadSh? (that icon), well, we have to kiss it no matter how bad it tastes when we lick it.

Plus, creating  a 'Corvette' - well, 'that' would just be too much work (although the one design was manufactured, literally, hundreds of times)

[General_Alexus]

5 hours ago, Bear__Necessities said:

Which is why you ping. Send 1 torp or 2. Wait 15 seconds and send the rest. So when they DCP because they see torps, you can re ping them and slam them with 4/5 more after. 

 

Stop defending stupid broken mechanics. 

 

Even if you do that, you dont get a double ping, so assuming you hit with the other 4, its 4*8000 dmg - Torp-protection and dmg-saturation. So you do everything right to get 15-20k dmg and a flood.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

20 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

I have to hand it to the BB-Mafia, they won again.

Had some nice sub games in radom today, maximum dmg was about 100k doing big dmg numbers difficult.

One game in perticular, Torps having no problem at all to hit DDs and French CAs, but BBs? nah, 48% players dodge homing torps easyly by just turning a bit short before impact.

I mean yeah, WG cant scare of the paying customer base, but its funny that the nimble small ships have a harder time evading than the big tanker.

 

Also WG, you need to do something about Sub on Sub fights, they are way to inconsistent especially on short range. Half the time you ramm each other, the other half time its just a waste of oxigen or one side gets third partied as everybody has DCPlanes now. Best is to not even get into a Sub on Sub fight.

 

On the plus side: I realy love the German Sub Buff, and single launch torps are fun.

One game I spread out Torps and pinged a DD late, the poor thing had torps comming from 180° from all directions, reaky funny to watch. And before people cry: He didnt get hit once as together with him moving away, spreading torps out so much eats into theire range, so they run out before hitting him.

Sounds like an LTP issue... BB, Cruisers and DDs get different "versions" of Sub torps attacking them (not only homing, but also "target dependable") with the "anti DD torps" tracking their target longer than the "don't hurt BaBBies too much" versions. Can't make playing too tough for the guys pay your bills, right?

[Bear__Necessities]

2 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

Even if you do that, you dont get a double ping, so assuming you hit with the other 4, its 4*8000 dmg - Torp-protection and dmg-saturation. So you do everything right to get 15-20k dmg and a flood.

You can space out the timing to easily get a double ping. And with the Balao you can turn use the rear torps and then by the time you've re-turned the front set are ready to go. It's a constant ping and torp dodging game for all surface ships. 

[bEtHeNs]

Why and how is a damage controll party, isn't it the name, disabling the detection of a ship by a submarine's detection device? which technollogy are they using so they can counter a detection device? Aren't they firemen, mechanics and so? seems to me a Star Trek ocurrence.

 

I do not know if it actually exists or existed, but throwing buoys with deception effects would not be more realistic and independent of the use of the dcp? Or any kind of electronic deception device inside the ship? Using dcp just to avoid torps is a waste and you may need to use it some short time after. 

 

Or make torps work like dds toprs.

[lovelacebeer]

11 minutes ago, bEtHeNs said:

Why and how is a damage controll party, isn't it the name, disabling the detection of a ship by a submarine's detection device? which technollogy are they using so they can counter a detection device? Aren't they firemen, mechanics and so? seems to me a Star Trek ocurrence.

 

I do not know if it actually exists or existed, but throwing buoys with deception effects would not be more realistic and independent of the use of the dcp? Or any kind of electronic deception device inside the ship? Using dcp just to avoid torps is a waste and you may need to use it some short time after. 

 

Or make torps work like dds toprs.

It is a really bad design and a sign of just how lazy WG are in their development of submarines. 
 

The allies did develop acoustic jamming devices to confuse the Germans acoustic torpedos. The British version was called Foxer: 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxer

[Gudgeon]

22 minutes ago, bEtHeNs said:

Why and how is a damage controll party, isn't it the name, disabling the detection of a ship by a submarine's detection device? which technollogy are they using so they can counter a detection device? Aren't they firemen, mechanics and so? seems to me a Star Trek ocurrence.

 

I do not know if it actually exists or existed, but throwing buoys with deception effects would not be more realistic and independent of the use of the dcp? Or any kind of electronic deception device inside the ship? Using dcp just to avoid torps is a waste and you may need to use it some short time after. 

 

Or make torps work like dds toprs.

 

or better still just remove submarines from the main game modes and have their own scenarios or modes to use them. What ever is changed to try and get submarines into the main game will have a knock on effect somewhere else.

 

The homing mechanic does not fit into the game. It is like having a tier 11 ship with surface to surface missiles......oh wait.......

[Dragon12_G]

WG you should be ashamed for the result of almost 3 years of development...! No counterplay for most of the ships....a whole new universe for exploitation by the so called "unicum" type of players that live for that....

 

Gameplay is so boring and irritating ...U-boat divisions make things worst....It is a disaster that dwindles cv rework by far.....U-boats have an unbalanced - unrealistic and massive game-breaking impact on random game play... STOP IT...!!

[Pan_Kalich]

Před 1 hodinou Dragon12_G řekl/a:

WG you should be ashamed for the result of almost 3 years of development...! No counterplay for most of the ships....a whole new universe for exploitation by the so called "unicum" type of players that live for that....

 

Gameplay is so boring and irritating ...U-boat divisions make things worst....It is a disaster that dwindles cv rework by far.....U-boats have an unbalanced - unrealistic and massive game-breaking impact on random game play... STOP IT...!!

No counter play? Now literally every ships has depth charges either aerial or launched ... what more would you want ... one "kill nearest sub" button? Have you tried to dodge air depth charges run from multiple BBs while sailing a sub? Or are you actually complaining because you are just frustrated for not being able to sink one? Most kills I had today in sub were just static ships sitting in the smoke or "straight liners" eating torps, not even trying to dodge and then crying in the chat how OP subs are ... so ... there you go.

 

 

As for boring gameplay ... that is your opinion.

[Carandraug]

1 hour ago, Pan_Kalich said:

No counter play? Now literally every ships has depth charges either aerial or launched ... what more would you want ... one "kill nearest sub" button? Have you tried to dodge air depth charges run from multiple BBs while sailing a sub? Or are you actually complaining because you are just frustrated for not being able to sink one? Most kills I had today in sub were just static ships sitting in the smoke or "straight liners" eating torps, not even trying to dodge and then crying in the chat how OP subs are ... so ... there you go.

 

 

As for boring gameplay ... that is your opinion.

And here we go again... Another guy with errrrr "underwhelming" stats is lecturing others on counterplay and enjoying subs. Color me absolutely shocked :P Almost like there is a pattern...

[Carandraug]

Am 11.10.2021 um 00:58, Pan_Kalich sagte:

edit

Seriously math is probably not your friend either, but hey good for you :P

 

There is quite a lot of very iffy statements from your side. Counterplay to subs is almost the same level as AA, looks very flashy but doing jack crap in reality against at least semi-competent players. Same as with CV potatoes eating flak, you have to be really really special to get with your sub anywhere near a danger situation from depth charges dropped directly from ships. Your only enemies are BB's with airstrike depth charges, granted you are detected. Considering high tier submarine gameplay in most cases negates any chance of being actually spotted for a meaningful period of time, its quite an academic discussion.

 

Against the "best gaming design in 2021" with homing torpedoes the "counterplay" is even more idiotic. In a BB if you have DCP and use it in the ideal time you have some chance to avoid them. If not you are dead no matter what you do. If you DCP and avoid first set, then the second is your death, because your DCP is not back yet. Cruisers and DDs are screwed no matter what, because with the Fittipaldi curves and homing until the very last meters you cant avoid them. 

 

The gameplay is absolutely boring snoozefest, because the ideal submarine gameplay is literally sitting in one spot doing small circles so you can fire all your front/rear torpedo tubes on cooldown. Ping, ping, ping. Peak gameplay design beating maybe even the absolute CV disaster minigame. The class is absolutely terrible for the game, because it once again (hello CV's) ignores the basic rules for all the others and plays its own detached minigame. While essentially killing any pushing endevours or DDs trying to do their designated role. We already have a griefer class for the less skilled players, so another one is certainly not needed.

[Pan_Kalich]

Před 8 hodinami Carandraug řekl/a:

There is quite a lot of very iffy statements from your side. Counterplay to subs is almost the same level as AA, looks very flashy but doing jack crap in reality against at least semi-competent players. Same as with CV potatoes eating flak, you have to be really really special to get with your sub anywhere near a danger situation from depth charges dropped directly from ships. Your only enemies are BB's with airstrike depth charges, granted you are detected. Considering high tier submarine gameplay in most cases negates any chance of being actually spotted for a meaningful period of time, its quite an academic discussion.

 

Against the "best gaming design in 2021" with homing torpedoes the "counterplay" is even more idiotic. In a BB if you have DCP and use it in the ideal time you have some chance to avoid them. If not you are dead no matter what you do. If you DCP and avoid first set, then the second is your death, because your DCP is not back yet. Cruisers and DDs are screwed no matter what, because with the Fittipaldi curves and homing until the very last meters you cant avoid them. 

 

The gameplay is absolutely boring snoozefest, because the ideal submarine gameplay is literally sitting in one spot doing small circles so you can fire all your front/rear torpedo tubes on cooldown. Ping, ping, ping. Peak gameplay design beating maybe even the absolute CV disaster minigame. The class is absolutely terrible for the game, because it once again (hello CV's) ignores the basic rules for all the others and plays its own detached minigame. While essentially killing any pushing endevours or DDs trying to do their designated role. We already have a griefer class for the less skilled players, so another one is certainly not needed.

Well, if you would have started with this kind of description, intead of retorting to thinly veiled insults and condescending rethoric right from the bat, i might have see your point and even admit that I am wrong ...

[Bear__Necessities]

11 hours ago, Pan_Kalich said:

No counter play? Now literally every ships has depth charges either aerial or launched ... what more would you want ... one "kill nearest sub" button? Have you tried to dodge air depth charges run from multiple BBs while sailing a sub?

 

A) For a ship to get close enough to a sub to use depth charges, it takes an absurd risk to do so. Not only from the Sub who has the advantage but also the rest of the enemy team can light up said ship as it's Perma spotted. It very easy to shotgun a DD with torps as it tries to DC a sub. 

 

B) It's quite easy to avoid any significant damage from airborne ASW tool. 

[General_Alexus]

17 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Sounds like an LTP issue...

You mean my problems with sub on sub fights?

Nah dont think so, if you run into a sub at close distance (aka you spot each other at 2km) homing torps dont work as they only start tracking after a few hundret meters, but as you cant controll depth smoothly but are instead bound to your level of depth, it is rarely possible to line up a dumb-fire torp to hit, and even if you try, the enemy does the same and it ends up in both subs ramming each other.

(had several attemts, arming distance also plays a roll, had several instances of firing the torps before the ramm and the torps spawned behind the sub)

 

The very fact that torps at close distance end up this way every time makes sub fights very boring as the moment you spot a sub you have a mexican standof with the enemy sub at >4km and reverse while changing depth from time to time. Evading torps comes down to showing a low profile and having DC up. Best chances of winning have american subs with [edited]launchers, German subs better go for the ramm right away if forced, the moment subs pass each other the T10 is fucked.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

20 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

Even if you do that, you dont get a double ping, so assuming you hit with the other 4, its 4*8000 dmg - Torp-protection and dmg-saturation. So you do everything right to get 15-20k dmg and a flood.

We can defenitely re-double ping for citadels when the torps are slow and launched at max range even on a BB. Watch this vid from 2.10 min in. This first attack on two ships is pretty special too but this was without the single launch feature that is currently on.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, General_Alexus said:

You mean my problems with sub on sub fights?

Nah dont think so, if you run into a sub at close distance (aka you spot each other at 2km) homing torps dont work as they only start tracking after a few hundret meters, but as you cant controll depth smoothly but are instead bound to your level of depth, it is rarely possible to line up a dumb-fire torp to hit, and even if you try, the enemy does the same and it ends up in both subs ramming each other.

(had several attemts, arming distance also plays a roll, had several instances of firing the torps before the ramm and the torps spawned behind the sub)

 

The very fact that torps at close distance end up this way every time makes sub fights very boring as the moment you spot a sub you have a mexican standof with the enemy sub at >4km and reverse while changing depth from time to time. Evading torps comes down to showing a low profile and having DC up. Best chances of winning have american subs with [edited]launchers, German subs better go for the ramm right away if forced, the moment subs pass each other the T10 is fucked.

hope they make the IJN subs, that they survive the ramming of other subs. I remember doing that in Steel Ocean a lot, that was fun xD

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

hope they make the IJN subs, that they survive the ramming of other subs. I remember doing that in Steel Ocean a lot, that was fun xD

Didnt that game die? 

[Prophecy82]

16 hours ago, Dragon12_G said:

 

Gameplay is so boring and irritating ...U-boat divisions make things worst....It is a disaster that dwindles cv rework by far.....U-boats have an unbalanced - unrealistic and massive game-breaking impact on random game play... STOP IT...!!

Nope. I really dont think that there is smth worse then the CV rework. 

Dont get me wrong, subs are a terrible bad idea for the game, yet CVs take the cake in BS-world.

[Thox6s]

On 10/22/2020 at 6:41 PM, YabbaCoe said:

Commanders!

 

We would like to ask you to share your personal experience and feedback from Submarine Battles on TST server in this particular thread!

 

Please edit your messages, stay only on feedback and don't debate here. If you would like to debate about submarines, please do so in other threads.

Posts, that won't follow these rules will be hidden. 

 

Thanks for understanding and good luck in Submarine Battles!

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[pissBoiler]

Another day, another sub "experience".

 

Sub caps, I want to contest it with fully spec'ed Minotaur. A cruiser with both hydro, smoke and guns galore. And depth charges. But I can't. Because the sub just pings new torpedoes every 30 seconds. My DamCon is 60 secs. And his torps, magical torps that don't even exist in the real world anno 2021, ALL hit EVERY time, meaning he can one-shot kill me. And ships like me. Every 30 secs. All game. As long as he wants to. No way any of us can get near him, even if we can spot him, early enought to DC strike him. Because magic torpedoes every 30 seconds. 4 of them. Which is an instant 1 shot kill. 

 

And a hydro armed light crusier can do absolutely nothing about it.

 

Who designed this carcrash of a gaming experience? Who played it before releasing it? 

[Pan_Kalich]

Před 2 minutami pissBoiler řekl/a:

Another day, another sub "experience".

 

Sub caps, I want to contest it with fully spec'ed Minotaur. A cruiser with both hydro, smoke and guns galore. And depth charges. But I can't. Because the sub just pings new torpedoes every 30 seconds. My DamCon is 60 secs. And his torps, magical torps that don't even exist in the real world anno 2021

Were you sitting in the smoke? Just asking. Because that is how I get most kills when contesting. And sub torps have cooldown 60sec give or take, Not 30.

Besides those "magical torps" aka guided, believe it or not, do exist nowadays (albeit not guided by sonar ping, true) ... I agree that guided torpedoes are a bit non-sense in ww2 and post war era.

[pissBoiler]

1 minute ago, Pan_Kalich said:

Were you sitting in the smoke? Just asking. Because that is how I get most kills when contesting. And sub torps have cooldown 60sec give or take, Not 30.

Besides those "magical torps" aka guided, believe it or not, do exist nowadays (albeit not guided by sonar ping, true) ... I agree that guided torpedoes are a bit non-sense in ww2 and post war era.

 

Well, they are not 60 seconds. I got new pings every 30 seconds and there was only 1 (one) submarine there. Less than 10 minutes ago. 

 

Guided torpedoes today are in fact so non-magical, that there e.g. has never been a recorded, proven sub-on-sub torpedo kill in human military history with guided torpedoes. So yeah. Pure magic. 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, pissBoiler said:

 

Well, they are not 60 seconds. I got new pings every 30 seconds and there was only 1 (one) submarine there. Less than 10 minutes ago. 

 

Guided torpedoes today are in fact so non-magical, that there e.g. has never been a recorded, proven sub-on-sub torpedo kill in human military history with guided torpedoes. So yeah. Pure magic. 

USN are aroun 46s and germans over 100s. USN have only 2 loaders

 

As a cruiser, I would rather avoide submarines, staying on distance or behind islands. Only if the situation allows it, I would approach the submarine