General Submarines related discussions

[Pikkozoikum]

13 minutes ago, ThePeoplesFront said:

The battle is over before you get a chance to wet your boots.

Yes, that will be the major disadvantage of submarines, that they are quite inflexible with their range, speed, attack angle and armament type.

But I'm fine with that, one class will be always the most inflexible one, in this case it will be the submarine

[Pikkozoikum]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Ok maybe I put this remark here already but I tried another T8 Sub game this morning.

To me it looks pretty straight forward: remove the ping and homing and subs are more or less bearable. Potentially even fun to play although not real fun to play against

 

Still - the homing is sh* and breaks it for me 

Though the issue is, how do you want design subs without homing. The homing makes the hit chance probably higher, thus the dmg can be lower.

If you remove the homing, you need a compensation. That will be damage.

And we have to consider, that submarines don't have main guns or 10-15 torpedos at once.

Submarines will be even less influencial, because long range hit won't be really effective, so they need to spend more time to get really close.

 

I can see also disadvantages by removing the homing system. I personally would still prefer a 2 armament type version with long-range homing torpedos and short-range non-homing

[ThePeoplesFront]

As useful as the marker buoys. I see a very short life for submarines in this game, a novelty at best 

[Pikkozoikum]

Just now, ThePeoplesFront said:

As useful as the marker buoys. I see a very short life for submarines in this game, a novelty at best 

It's more like a coinflip, if they are useful. Sometimes they will be just in the wrong place and will struggle to get into a better position. But somtimes they will be in the right place and maybe even one-shot a cruiser.

 

That they will be a nice-class was clear even before the Halloween-Test imo ^^

[1MajorKoenig]

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though the issue is, how do you want design subs without homing. The homing makes the hit chance probably higher, thus the dmg can be lower.

If you remove the homing, you need a compensation. That will be damage.

And we have to consider, that submarines don't have main guns or 10-15 torpedos at once.

I disagree they need any form of compensation. damage is quite high as is - no need to change.

 

I have a fundamentally different view on the role though: to me Subs should be sneaky. Sneak up close and deliver the torps and then retreat.

 

I don’t need a class with an artificial easy mode.

 

The only “homing” They in fact would need would be an exclusive anti-sub passive homing torp against other submerged subs. Can be slow and low damage though 

[ThePeoplesFront]

 

3 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I disagree they need any form of compensation. damage is quite high as is - no need to change.

 

I have a fundamentally different view on the role though: to me Subs should be sneaky. Sneak up close and deliver the torps and then retreat.

 

I don’t need a class with an artificial easy mode.

 

The only “homing” They in fact would need would be an exclusive anti-sub passive homing torp against other submerged subs. Can be slow and low damage though 

For that to happen they would need to be in a more central position at the start

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I disagree they need any form of compensation. damage is quite high as is - no need to change.

7k dmg torpedos? That are the lowest dmg torpedos, I think and as regular torpedos like any DD, they would be just worse armaments

 

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I have a fundamentally different view on the role though: to me Subs should be sneaky. Sneak up close and deliver the torps and then retreat.

Actually you can sneak up, did that a few times and was pretty funny. But that's also why I would say, we need to armament types. In case a submarine can sneak up -> short range, high damage torpedos.

In case, he is not possible to sneak up, then a sub needs still be able to do something -> long range homing torpedos

 

5 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I don’t need a class with an artificial easy mode.

It's actually not an easy mode, the homing also allows a different type of counter play, that you don't have with normal torpedos. When you just one shot ships from close range, that is easy mode.

 

 

7 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

The only “homing” They in fact would need would be an exclusive anti-sub passive homing torp against other submerged subs. Can be slow and low damage though 

I wouldn't mind, if they can't even fight each other submerged ^^

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, ThePeoplesFront said:

 

For that to happen they would need to be in a more central position at the start

I moved once over the right flank at Nothern Lights around the island and one shotted a cruiser in suprise. It was T10 so I moved all the time a Operating depth, so the radar would never see me earlier and he was pretty surprised :D

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, General_Alexus said:

Dont know what you have with your Lolorado, you cant even play with in ranked atm.

This ship is f-ed anyway with the speed it has, no subs needed.

Because I like slow, lumbering floating fortresses... US BBs are my standard regrind for RP. 

But yes, the "speed" it has is gonna be a problem with subs. Also for other BBs. 

IMO subs are just too fast and nothing shows that better than good old Lolorado. 

 

Spoiler

 

[1MajorKoenig]

58 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Actually you can sneak up, did that a few times and was pretty funny.

And that’s it - it should be what a sub needs to do. 
 

As of now you can just sit somewhere and spam torps and pings. No need to do anything interesting 

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Ok maybe I put this remark here already but I tried another T8 Sub game this morning.

To me it looks pretty straight forward: remove the ping and homing and subs are more or less bearable. Potentially even fun to play although not real fun to play against

 

Still - the homing is sh* and breaks it for me 

Yes, also with less speed and the "mediocre homing" they were bearable/funny.

What they did now is FF it up. 

[Pikkozoikum]

5 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And that’s it - it should be what a sub needs to do. 
 

As of now you can just sit somewhere and spam torps and pings. No need to do anything interesting 

But I do that ;)
I don't spam torps all the time, because that can be easily avoided. Often I try to get into a good position and get a good shot on a unprepared Cruiser or DD

I mean yes, if you have torps free and there is a chance to hit something, you would just give it a go, but there are often scenarios, where sneaking around might give a bigger outcome

[Pikkozoikum]

39 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes, also with less speed and the "mediocre homing" they were bearable/funny.

What they did now is FF it up. 

Have you tryed it or just assuming? Because I never noticed, that the slow BBs have big issues to avoide torpedos

[KratosTheUnforgiving]

Another reason why subs are stupid and the designers are ******, perfect drop by Kaga HE bombers, no damage with incapacitations, how does that work, if I damaged the torp tubes then the sub took damage????

 

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Paranoid_Potato said:

Another reason why subs are stupid and the designers are ******, perfect drop by Kaga HE bombers, no damage with incapacitations, how does that work, if I damaged the torp tubes then the sub took damage????

 

could be, that the splash damage cube for damaging modules is larger than the splash damage cube for HP-damage, but could be wrong. Just guessing

[1MajorKoenig]

47 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But I do that ;)
I don't spam torps all the time, because that can be easily avoided. Often I try to get into a good position and get a good shot on a unprepared Cruiser or DD

I mean yes, if you have torps free and there is a chance to hit something, you would just give it a go, but there are often scenarios, where sneaking around might give a bigger outcome

Well I did it too today and it showed to me how subs COULD be in the game.

 

However the homing breaks it completely hence why I am against introducing sums into the game on the grounds of the homing+Pinging.

 

For me the homing torps are the one big showstopper for subs at the minute 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

50 minutes ago, Paranoid_Potato said:

Another reason why subs are stupid and the designers are ******, perfect drop by Kaga HE bombers, no damage with incapacitations, how does that work, if I damaged the torp tubes then the sub took damage????

 

This is with any ship in this game. It is because HE armament has a blast zone (cubicle). The cubicle does only damage to modules; guns, torpedoes, etcetera, not to ship HP. You didn't hit anything = no damage to the ship hull, but blast zone did damage some modules. 

See spoiler.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Well I did it too today and it showed to me how subs COULD be in the game.

 

However the homing breaks it completely hence why I am against introducing sums into the game on the grounds of the homing+Pinging.

 

For me the homing torps are the one big showstopper for subs at the minute 

Homing against surface ships needs to go obviously. Impossible to play against.

[1MajorKoenig]

21 minutes ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

obviously

I agree but I doubt it is obvious to WG

[General_Alexus]

As I read alot of complains about homing against surface targets here some thoughts:

Homing is nessesary against subs, or we can scrap the sub on sub combat. Because of this the hole ping-gameplay needs to stay.

With no homing:

1) When firering torps below surface against surfaceships we need some way to tell torps to go to the surface, Pings could be used for this.

2) We would need a predictionline underwater that includes time for the torps to surface.

3) Torps need to be way more stealthy and Pings should not give any warning to the targeted ship, maybe make submerged torps more stealthy and they surface the moment you ping, double ping stays as is with more dmg and citas.

4) DPM needs to be adjusted, maybe add torpedo reloadbooster to avoid permanent torpspamm or too high alpha damage (thinking about shotgunning DDs here)

 

That beeing said: Especially when pinging was making you visible as 4km last patch I often dumbfired torps when I was too close (say Iland/cap CQB), it works and is actually fun (as you can sneek up to 2km on people) but I noticed that the moment I fire, the torps are spotted and without pinging you miss quite alot as the enemy still has 20 sekonds to react at 4km. For that reason I think torps should be more stealthy if you would remove homing.

Also the DPM of torps is quite low even with homing, removing warning of doubleping might do the trick without increesing raw DPM.

[ZeMalm]

A more easy fix, would be to just not introduce Subs.....

[1MajorKoenig]

2 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

Homing is nessesary against subs, or we can scrap the sub on sub combat. Because of this the hole ping-gameplay needs to stay.

No, a separate ASW torpedo could be introduced instead to fight subs. Passive homing for example 

[Capra76]

So, yeah:

 

 

WG can't even make torpedoes go where you aim them but somehow they think they can introduce a class in to the game that is nothing but torpedoes.

 

This is going to end well ........................ not.

[SodaBubbles]

Submarines suck. They extend the game, they are annoying for the other players, and the homing torps are straight up cheating -- another idiotic mechanic nobody wants or asked for, like rockets, that materially sucks. 

I will be so delighted when, after blowing two years needed to make other improvements on adding a new type to the game that nobody wants, when it shrinks to 5% like aircraft carriers. 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Submarines have too much HP. They can still go up, torp you and go down. I suggest to lower their HP to 4k or disable diving when on fire / flooding.