General Submarines related discussions

[Gvozdika]

Just now, 1MajorKoenig said:

Not disagreeing in general but from my perception it “feeeels” ok at T10 but completely wrong on any tier below 

Fair enough.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

10 K is plenty, if you hit both torps you have 10K (with belt protection) to 20K (both hit citadel) plus resulting floods. 

Also this is nothing out of the ordinary, many torps do that kind of damage and BBs do not "sink at once" unless they eat all DD torpedoes.

Chances for damage might better be enhanced by making flooding chances bigger (or torpedo belt reduction less good vs sub torps). 

DDs launch torps on larger distances with a spread mostly. Submarines would go close to ~2.6 km and launch them in pairs.

What do you mean with citadel hit? Normal torpedos don't do bonus damage to citadels, do we keep the pinging mechanic?

 

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Here's the BS though, I'd also like subs in game - but not like this:

You don't need it, if no torps are incoming (after pings hit you) --> you do not see them right after launch...

You don't need it, if you can outrun the torpedos --> good luck on that in Lolorado...

You don't need it, if you can turn the torps into an island---> good luck on that too, now that hey increased speed and homing...

You don't need it, if you can perform evasive maneuver ---> hahaha yes "just dodge" like CVs, again good luck on that in the Lolorado....

You don't need it, if the damage won't be too high ---> you are making subs a DoT thing then (like HE spam), which is exactly what we DO NOT need. 

 

Here's the BS though, I'd also like subs in game - but not like this:

You don't need it, if no torps are incoming (after pings hit you) --> you do not see them right after launch...

-> The ping is mostly announcing them, but also you see them from far distance (over 2 km)

 

You don't need it, if you can outrun the torpedos --> good luck on that in Lolorado...

-> Happens all the time, unless the surface ship is in a bad spot. Torps don't have infinite range and the curving reduces the range even more.

 

You don't need it, if you can turn the torps into an island---> good luck on that too, now that hey increased speed and homing...

-> For what good luck? They don't have 500 knots... Are you not doing that?

 

You don't need it, if you can perform evasive maneuver ---> hahaha yes "just dodge" like CVs, again good luck on that in the Lolorado....

Eh, are you not doing that? o_O

-> As I mentioned 1000 times, BBs have it quite easy, cruiser less easy, but they have short CD on DCP to help out with that. It's all about map awareness and macro skills to play around a submarine.

 

 

You don't need it, if the damage won't be too high ---> you are making subs a DoT thing then (like HE spam), which is exactly what we DO NOT need. 

-> No idea, what you mean? I'm talking about, you don't use DCP, when the torps won't hit in a heavy way. For example only 2 torps approach the bow/stern.

 

 

How often have you played submarine in ranked btw?

[BLUB__BLUB]

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Here's the BS though, I'd also like subs in game - but not like this:

You don't need it, if no torps are incoming (after pings hit you) --> you do not see them right after launch...

-> The ping is mostly announcing them, but also you see them from far distance (over 2 km)

Well, as you say, most subs shoot from around 2,6km. Say 3km. How much reaction time does that give you?

 

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You don't need it, if you can outrun the torpedos --> good luck on that in Lolorado...

-> Happens all the time, unless the surface ship is in a bad spot. Torps don't have infinite range and the curving reduces the range even more.

Yes and all torps overtake all ships. Eh... well my Ise torps are sometimes unable to overtake a DD...

Doesn't matter if they have infinite range or not, really. The matter is: are they avoidable?

And as you say, most subs shoot from 2,6 km.

 

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You don't need it, if you can turn the torps into an island---> good luck on that too, now that hey increased speed and homing...

-> For what good luck? They don't have 500 knots... Are you not doing that?

It is simple. You are NOT going to be able to outrun these torps in any way, or run & hide behind an island.

They will get you because the homing is too good and the speed is too fast.

 

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You don't need it, if you can perform evasive maneuver ---> hahaha yes "just dodge" like CVs, again good luck on that in the Lolorado....

Eh, are you not doing that? o_O

-> As I mentioned 1000 times, BBs have it quite easy, cruiser less easy, but they have short CD on DCP to help out with that. It's all about map awareness and macro skills to play around a submarine.

There is no map awareness against a good sub. You will simply never see him coming.

 

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You don't need it, if the damage won't be too high ---> you are making subs a DoT thing then (like HE spam), which is exactly what we DO NOT need. 

-> No idea, what you mean? I'm talking about, you don't use DCP, when the torps won't hit in a heavy way. For example only 2 torps approach the bow/stern.

It is very clear that you have no idea. 

Also, you will no0t be able to estimate what they hit if they approach bow or stearn.

If they are still homing, they will dive and still hit citadel, mostly. 

Even if not (very close they lose the homing) they still can cause floods.

 

 

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

How often have you played submarine in ranked btw?

I suck at them. Also, I hate ranked. So far though I've participated in all tests. At some point, I thought they were quite good.

However, the way WeeGee has now "guaranteed more damage" is absolutely crud. What is so difficult to understand about that?

 

Note: Most people I hear say subs are pretty simple, including my son (he is a DD main, does "excellent" in subs).

What he says is, given enough time he'll just kill the whole enemy team. 

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, as you say, most subs shoot from around 2,6km. Say 3km. How much reaction time does that give you?

Most submarines shoot around 4km-10km. In your case it will be around 11-15s.

If they are too close and too deep, the torps won't raise fast enough.

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And as you say, most subs shoot from 2,6 km

Why do you think that? They don't. It's possible, but rather a bad positon. 5 km is kinda optimal, but really depends on situation. 5km can be suicide in the wrong situation.

It's like you would say, that DDs drop their torpedos always at +100m of their concealment. I mean, yeah, Asashios drop their torps mostly only at 5.5km ^^

If a submarine is too close to the enemy, it will risk being perma spotted and dropped by ASW or just depleted.

(Combo of Radar, Hydro and submarine Hydro)

 

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It is simple. You are NOT going to be able to outrun these torps in any way, or run & hide behind an island.

They will get you because the homing is too good and the speed is too fast.

You outrun them with good positioning. If you are in a bad spot, you won't. You can cherry pick your situations, when I give a collection of possibilties.

 

It's like I would say "To avoide cita hits from a BB, you should angle" and you answer is "But you can't do that, when you are full broadside at 5km to the BB"

That makes no sense. You will outrun them always, when your position is not "melee fight" against submarine.

 

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It is very clear that you have no idea. 

I have "no idea", but then you say:

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I suck at them. Also, I hate ranked.

I played all tests, but also over 100 of sub games this ranked

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Also, you will no0t be able to estimate what they hit if they approach bow or stearn.

Eh, you see the torps? You see the ping? of course they still can hit the citadel, but you should be able to estimate, if you can tank the damage or not, but they won't "mostly" hit the citadel. Maybe 1 hit, but what often also happens, that 50% miss and 50% hits stern/bow.

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Even if not (very close they lose the homing) they still can cause floods.

So? What's the point of that? I think they even have low flood chances compared to normal torpedos. But you treat every point as a single point. That's the big mistake, you have to see all the points together. That all together gives you many chances to avoide damage.

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Note: Most people I hear say subs are pretty simple, including my son (he is a DD main, does "excellent" in subs).

What he says is, given enough time he'll just kill the whole enemy team. 

Oh then, yes, submarines are overpowered...

 

 

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

There is no map awareness against a good sub. You will simply never see him coming.

That's wrong. Even the best submarine will be outspotted now and then. It's like you would say "There is no map awareness against a good DD"...

 

A submarine, no matter the skill, will often at some point spotted. And even if you are the one, who takes the first ping, then you know the position and you can turn and now you have your map awareness.

 

I do that all of my ranked games, I check the map, if DDs or Submarines are spotted. Saying there is no "map awareness" is quite weird...

 

 

 

Quite common, that submarines get outspotted by Hydro, Radar, planes etc.

[lovelacebeer]

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Most submarines shoot around 4km-10km. In your case it will be around 11-15s.

If they are too close and too deep, the torps won't raise fast enough.

 

Why do you think that? They don't. It's possible, but rather a bad positon. 5 km is kinda optimal, but really depends on situation. 5km can be suicide in the wrong situation.

It's like you would say, that DDs drop their torpedos always at +100m of their concealment. I mean, yeah, Asashios drop their torps mostly only at 5.5km ^^

If a submarine is too close to the enemy, it will risk being perma spotted and dropped by ASW or just depleted.

(Combo of Radar, Hydro and submarine Hydro)

 

 

You outrun them with good positioning. If you are in a bad spot, you won't. You can cherry pick your situations, when I give a collection of possibilties.

 

It's like I would say "To avoide cita hits from a BB, you should angle" and you answer is "But you can't do that, when you are full broadside at 5km to the BB"

That makes no sense. You will outrun them always, when your position is not "melee fight" against submarine.

 

 

I have "no idea", but then you say:

I played all tests, but also over 100 of sub games this ranked

 

Eh, you see the torps? You see the ping? of course they still can hit the citadel, but you should be able to estimate, if you can tank the damage or not, but they won't "mostly" hit the citadel. Maybe 1 hit, but what often also happens, that 50% miss and 50% hits stern/bow.

 

So? What's the point of that? I think they even have low flood chances compared to normal torpedos. But you treat every point as a single point. That's the big mistake, you have to see all the points together. That all together gives you many chances to avoide damage.

 

Oh then, yes, submarines are overpowered...

 

 

That's wrong. Even the best submarine will be outspotted now and then. It's like you would say "There is no map awareness against a good DD"...

 

A submarine, no matter the skill, will often at some point spotted. And even if you are the one, who takes the first ping, then you know the position and you can turn and now you have your map awareness.

 

I do that all of my ranked games, I check the map, if DDs or Submarines are spotted. Saying there is no "map awareness" is quite weird...

 

 

 

Quite common, that submarines get outspotted by Hydro, Radar, planes etc.

You seem to have considerably changed your stance on situational awareness since our last discussion. Given how vehemently you argued that a good position was always a good position, not to mention your argument that situational awareness is of no use if some gets so close to you and you don’t see them coming: 

On 7/30/2021 at 2:30 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

"not that difficult". That's what you can say to everything...

 

 

 

I wasn't pushing, I'm reversing at the beginning. I'm in a defensive position, not in an aggressive. But one hydro of the enemy submarine (which pushed aggressively) highlighted me. And than an aggressive DD moved toward me and killed me.

Has nothing to do with awareness, because I can't react with 15 knots to that. Everything would be fine, if enemy subs wouldn't counter submarines so hard

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

17 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

You seem to have considerably changed your stance on situational awareness since our last discussion. Given how vehemently you argued that a good position was always a good position, not to mention your argument that situational awareness is of no use if some gets so close to you and you don’t see them coming: 

On 7/30/2021 at 2:30 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

"not that difficult". That's what you can say to everything...

 

 

 

I wasn't pushing, I'm reversing at the beginning. I'm in a defensive position, not in an aggressive. But one hydro of the enemy submarine (which pushed aggressively) highlighted me. And than an aggressive DD moved toward me and killed me.

Has nothing to do with awareness, because I can't react with 15 knots to that. Everything would be fine, if enemy subs wouldn't counter submarines so hard

 

 

Funny how you mix two different cases.

 

The current topic is about map awareness against submarines. Funny enough that shows actually, that you can get quite easily some intel of submarines.

 

Back then you claimed, that I was "yolo rushing", though actually I was in a very defence position there, not far away from our own spawn, but the enemy was "yolo rushing", just no mate was close enough to support me fast enough.

 

The issue there was the perma spotting from DD+Submarine Hydro. And well, this got nerfed and will get nerfed again. So the issue is gone. (you can see, that the enemy sub is spotting me at 7km Hydro)

[lovelacebeer]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Funny how you mix two different cases.

 

The current topic is about map awareness against submarines. Funny enough that shows actually, that you can get quite easily some intel of submarines.

 

Back then you claimed, that I was "yolo rushing", though actually I was in a very defence position there, not far away from our own spawn, but the enemy was "yolo rushing", just no mate was close enough to support me fast enough.

 

The issue there was the perma spotting from DD+Submarine Hydro. And well, this got nerfed and will get nerfed again. So the issue is gone. (you can see, that the enemy sub is spotting me at 7km Hydro)

 

So your argument is surface ships need to be map aware but submarines don’t? That is the issue in question your shifting claims of map awareness. It’s not about mixing cases, after all your such a big fan of making comparisons just as you keep comparing to DDs, this is just another comparison. 

 

I know from all you have written previously your arguments are devoid of any logic but you could at least try to be consistent in your arguments. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Most submarines shoot around 4km-10km. In your case it will be around 11-15s.

If they are too close and too deep, the torps won't raise fast enough.

Which one is it? Here you claim 2,6 km.

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Why do you think that? They don't. It's possible, but rather a bad positon. 5 km is kinda optimal, but really depends on situation. 5km can be suicide in the wrong situation.

It's like you would say, that DDs drop their torpedos always at +100m of their concealment. I mean, yeah, Asashios drop their torps mostly only at 5.5km ^^

If a submarine is too close to the enemy, it will risk being perma spotted and dropped by ASW or just depleted.

(Combo of Radar, Hydro and submarine Hydro)

Is it 5 km now? But yeah, at the range of their detection distance I guess. Which can vary, at periscope level they have ~2.5. 
Surfaced they have a bit more, and underwater they have almost none. 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You outrun them with good positioning. If you are in a bad spot, you won't. You can cherry pick your situations, when I give a collection of possibilties.

I have never seen anyone in a position, that was also on the run. 

Position = sitting in an area. Outrun = being faster... 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's like I would say "To avoide cita hits from a BB, you should angle" and you answer is "But you can't do that, when you are full broadside at 5km to the BB"

That makes no sense. You will outrun them always, when your position is not "melee fight" against submarine.

I think you know that comparison is BS. You cannot position against something you do not see. 
A DD you can expect to perform some stuff, and when he turns a cap you know he is there. 

When you see torps, you know he was at some position when he launched them.

A sub: only when he pings (and his torps might be coming at you from 2 directions...) or FFs it up.

His torps do not tell you where he launched them. He has no smoke that is a tell-tale sign. 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I have "no idea", but then you say:

I played all tests, but also over 100 of sub games this ranked

In total I played around 50 sub games, enough to know I'd better play something else. 

Other dudes are simply much better. I did play surface ships quite a lot.

Subs were fine with me until they made them too quick, and introduced these guided missiles.  

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Eh, you see the torps? You see the ping? of course they still can hit the citadel, but you should be able to estimate, if you can tank the damage or not, but they won't "mostly" hit the citadel. Maybe 1 hit, but what often also happens, that 50% miss and 50% hits stern/bow.

That is the point. You should NOT be able "to estimate, if you can tank the damage or not" but be able to avoid the hit. 

You cannot angle against homing torpedoes (same as CVs, but this time they also have aimbot).
And you cannot angle against a sub which you do not know what direction he is coming. 

And yes you will detect him when he pings. His torps might come from the other direction though.

As he pings when he has already launched them. 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So? What's the point of that? I think they even have low flood chances compared to normal torpedos. But you treat every point as a single point. That's the big mistake, you have to see all the points together. That all together gives you many chances to avoide damage.

Looks more to me like many chances to estimate, if you can tank the damage or not and say bye bye.

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Oh then, yes, submarines are overpowered...

What it means is that there is not enough counterplay. Even a CV can be run down and cornered. 

Doesn't mean subs are OP. It means that with these parameters, subs are BROKEN. 

If you get a skilled player he will just farm at will and nothing you can do. 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's wrong. Even the best submarine will be outspotted now and then. It's like you would say "There is no map awareness against a good DD"...

Ever experienced a good Asashio player? You will never see him. 

All you see is his torps coming for you. But at least they will come STRAIGHT from where he launched them.

Not so with subs. Torps will steer into you, maybe even from TWO DIRECTIONS. 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

A submarine, no matter the skill, will often at some point spotted. And even if you are the one, who takes the first ping, then you know the position and you can turn and now you have your map awareness.

If he has skill he'll not be spotted al game. You'll just know the general area where you saw his ping last.
And then he is quick enough to reposition very fast. He can even run you down if you are slower. 

It is just like a turkey shoot. You will depend on the sub to make a (bad) mistake. 

He does not depend on YOUR mistake, he can farm you at will.  

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I do that all of my ranked games, I check the map, if DDs or Submarines are spotted. Saying there is no "map awareness" is quite weird...

Spoiler

 

I do that too, but when a sub is good, you'll not know where he will go for you. 

 

11 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Quite common, that submarines get outspotted by Hydro, Radar, planes etc.

Radar? Doesn't work underwater. Hydro works, but limited range & time. And subs are quite quick, they have good chance to escape.

Planes cannot do anything to them when they dive. At least a DD in smoke can still be bombed/torped/shot. 

 

Now, all this concealment they use to make damage - which is, IMO, fine. 

I also think subs would add to the game - maybe even improve it. 

They'd be the perfect measure to get the campers... I quite liked them on the test server.

I also thought that playing against the subs, in whatever class, was quite interesting. 

 

But the speed of the subs is too high, there will be LOTS of ships that cannot outrun them. 

This means the SUB determines when to attack - as he can be unspotted until he uses the ping. 

He doesn't even HAVE TO use the ping. Hell, he can outrun/overtake a Lolorado (for example), go around an island, and presto.
He can then torp him from close range and not even use the ping. Or use it, and outrun & dive. 

 

Also the guiding and speed of the torps is just too much. Below T10, that guiding is quite doubtful as well.

The speed is like CV-planes having jet engines, and the guiding is auto-bot... this is a matter of immersion as well as balance.
Most ships are able to dodge DD torps, more or less. Good luck on hitting a cruiser with those. 

But these, well... it is just too much. You certainly cannot avoid them in a BB. 

 

And yes you can use DCP to remove the "ping". But that is not what DCP is for, and also, then it means DCP should be shorter cooldown.

Because next ping, DCP is on cooldown, and he'll ping you and there is nothing you can really do. He can also trick you into it. 

In which case you have used DCP, and you are a nice piñata for the sub and for anything spamming HE as well. 

It woud not fix camping, it would promote it. Nobody is gonna go in anymore, and camping is already quite bad. 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Which one is it? Here you claim 2,6 km.

Context please. That was under the scenario/assumption, that we would remove pinging/homing, but give them hard-hitting torpedos. In that case, submarine would go close.

 

Today I was at ~2.2km to a BB, my torps didn't even start homing, too close to the target.

 

Though with the patch today, submarines can actually go close (in an effective way) around 3-4 km, technically even closer, but some safety distance should be always given.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Is it 5 km now? But yeah, at the range of their detection distance I guess. Which can vary, at periscope level they have ~2.5. 
Surfaced they have a bit more, and underwater they have almost none. 

It "was", with the new patch change, it changed.

It was around 5km, because of the 4km ping bloom effect. As a submarine you want ping without being spotted, and you don't want try that at 4,001 km distance, so some saftey space

 

But with the new patch, you can even be at 4km or 3km

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

I have never seen anyone in a position, that was also on the run. 

Position = sitting in an area. Outrun = being faster... 

That's rather word quibbling. You can move fast in that "area" / position. I doesn't have to be a standing still coordinate. A flanking position is mostly "being fast".

Also you can press W, then you get fast. Before you say, "but the torpedos are so fast"... yes they are fast for Torpedos... but they are not 900 m/s shells.
Today I shot my torpedos on a bow-in BB at 2km without homing, and he turned out of it. At 2km he had enough time to dodge them re-activly (around 10s at 2km)

 

You need to look at the common scenarios:

 

Submarine is quite close, in Radar range and close to a cap. Cruisers have common positions.

The upper cruiser can easily turn away. The other curiser can turn behind islands. Torpedos are fast, but they will still take maybe 40s (maybe someone can calculate it?)

 

The germans for example have 11km max range, but this will be way less range, when the torpedos have to cruve

 

That are around 15% shortening in that case.

 

in that case the 11 km torps get 9.35 km max distance

in that case the 14 km torps get 11.9 km max distance

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Quote

It's like I would say "To avoide cita hits from a BB, you should angle" and you answer is "But you can't do that, when you are full broadside at 5km to the BB"

That makes no sense. You will outrun them always, when your position is not "melee fight" against submarine.

I think you know that comparison is BS. You cannot position against something you do not see. 

Well, it's BS, but not the comparison, rather the situation of both scenarios.

The comparison is quite accurate, because you went with a scneario, where it is impossible to out-run and avoide torpedos. That's why my analogy was always an impossible scenario.

 

There will be scenarios, where a surface ship just gets blown up by a submarine, but that's not because of broken mechanics, rather about how the players play.

To get fully surprise and impossbile to react to such a scenario, it kinda needs tons of conditions, that puts the ship already into a bad spot. I wouldn't blame the concept, rather the players

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

A DD you can expect to perform some stuff, and when he turns a cap you know he is there.

Same for submarines. When they cap, you also know, where they are, but also that they have limited range and also slow speed, so you can expect, that he won't appear on the other side of the map suddenly.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

When you see torps, you know he was at some position when he launched them.

A sub: only when he pings (and his torps might be coming at you from 2 directions...) or FFs it up.

His torps do not tell you where he launched them. He has no smoke that is a tell-tale sign. 

The pinging anounces the torpedos before they are even seen and the direction is also known. Even if he cross launches them, they will still get to a somewhat same direction, also he has to late ping, otherwise the torpedos will meet together, before the hit.

So the "cross" drop comes with a lot conditions and you will see that rather rarely, because mostly you want double pings, at least on cruisers and BBs, that means you need to ping it early. Early pinging meas, that the cross dropping torps meet  and move together

 

The only way, where it really works, when the target is bow in, but that still doesn't matter, because they will still come in a quite narrow approach, not really from two sides.

 

So the pings give you information. SS can cap and tell you the information. The torps have ~10s reaction time and are seen at >2km distance.

And also like you can see on the picture, the homing has a very specific behavior, that already tells you, what the torpedos will do. When you turn right, you will know, that the torpedos will come from the right.

In case of DDs, you will be surprised, if you don't get any intel earlier.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

In total I played around 50 sub games, enough to know I'd better play something else. 

Other dudes are simply much better. I did play surface ships quite a lot.

Subs were fine with me until they made them too quick, and introduced these guided missiles.  

The torps are fast, but only for torpedos. They are not rockets, not shells. They will still need their 30-50s. I think, they really need that speed to be somewhat effective. The slow torps took ages to reach a target, and even with the slow torps, enemies can outrun. I tryed to torp a moving BB at 7km, and it out run them.

When a ships moves full speed away from a SS, then it's quite hard to reach that ship in time, unless it's not extremly close.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

That is the point. You should NOT be able "to estimate, if you can tank the damage or not" but be able to avoid the hit. 

Why? It's normal gameplay. You often estimate, if you can go for a risk or not. Even with surface ships only, when you have to think about, if you can give shortly a broadside or not

 

No idea, why you don't should be able to estimateif you can take hits or not... 

CV and BB vs you, you estimate, if you can take the full hits from the CV or if you can show broadside and avoide CV dmg.

DD and BB vs you. Torpedos are spotted and you estimate, if you can take some of those torps, or not, instead of showing broadside. (Some torps do more damage and some less)

 

Same with submarines. You estimate, if those hits gonna hurt too much or not. If they would hurt to much, you use DCP and turn away. If you see, that there would be only 1x 5k hit on your BB, then you just take it.

 

I really don't see the point there, it seems like, that you think, that you can't avoide them, but in this case, it was about that case, that you are in such a bad situation,  that you can't avoide them and you estimate now, "Can I take the damage or do I have to use my DCP as counter"

That is a tactical option and not a restriction

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

You cannot angle against homing torpedoes (same as CVs, but this time they also have aimbot).

What you mean with angle? Like bouncing? That is an AP-mechanic. Torpedos are not AP, rather HE. Though you can angle, that leads often to more misses, since the torpedos come in pairs. Instead of 2 hits, there will be one and that might go into the bow/stern (though you can also get all hits and cita hits, that depends on the situation, but saying, you "can't" is wrong)

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

And you cannot angle against a sub which you do not know what direction he is coming. 

Ping alert? Even if the submarine is ~2km away, you will have 10s. As I said, today
A BB on 2.1 km distance was fully bow in. I shot the torpedos and he turned right and dodged them.

He actually managed to change his angle by almost 90° at a distance of ~2km.

 

And then, very often submarines will attack ships at way higher distances. I mostly start at 9-10km with 11km german torps. So it's not like every submarine spawns at 3km distance to you... ^^

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

And yes you will detect him when he pings. His torps might come from the other direction though.

No, they can't come from the other direction. They will come from a cone-area, only from different angles.

 

 

I got pinged earlier, but:

• I knew the direction
• I out run the torpedos (a few seconds later)
• I even out-run the re-pinging (you see now ping on me, because he couldn't re-ping)

 

They don't came from the west, the east or the south. The torps came from the north. The pinging told me that.

 

I never had in a surface ship the case "oh no, they come from 2 directions!"

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Quote

So? What's the point of that? I think they even have low flood chances compared to normal torpedos. But you treat every point as a single point. That's the big mistake, you have to see all the points together. That all together gives you many chances to avoide damage.

Looks more to me like many chances to estimate, if you can tank the damage or not and say bye bye.

That's totally out of context. I mention many points, how to deal with sub torpedos. Those many points as a whole gives a lot counter play. If you look at a single point only, then it looks like, there is not enough

 

If there are 5 ways for different situations to avoide something, then there are 5 ways, not just 1. All 5 have to be seen together.

 

When you look at the gun performance, you don't just look at a single gun, you look also at how many guns that ship has.

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

What it means is that there is not enough counterplay. Even a CV can be run down and cornered. 

Doesn't mean subs are OP. It means that with these parameters, subs are BROKEN. 

If you get a skilled player he will just farm at will and nothing you can do. 

A skilled player will also farm submarines? That's why he is skilled. There is a lot counterplay. I already mentioned it. I mean, they sill change stuff here and there, maybe the future version might be completly different, but I don't see it as broken.

 

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Ever experienced a good Asashio player? You will never see him. 

I would see myself as a Asashio player, but it also depends on what counts as "good"? A super unicum might still say, that unicum players are not good.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

All you see is his torps coming for you. But at least they will come STRAIGHT from where he launched them.

So when you get one-hitted by Asashio torps, then it's fine, because they are straight? If you think so, well, that's up to you. I think, that is a very weird view.

Asashio torpedos are very stealthy and fast with high damage.  But it was about mapawareness. The torps could be in water for over 1 minute from a very high distance, this intel can be misleading and also don't give any intel to team mates on the other side of the map. I was talking about being spotted

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Not so with subs. Torps will steer into you, maybe even from TWO DIRECTIONS. 

Still don't know, how does that matter, it was about mapawareness. And those torpedos, rather more the pings tell you the exact position at the time of the pinging. DD torps don't tell you that, those torpdes could be launched a minute ago.

 

In this case, the SS gives more information than the DD.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

If he has skill he'll not be spotted al game.

Same like a DD. But then even good DDs get spotted, why is that so?

 

1. DD runs into other DDs
2. Gets outspotted by Radar/Hydro
3. Makes a mistake

And now what happes as submarine?

 

1. SS runs tino other SS (maybe with hydro on)
2. Gets outspotted by Radar (Periscope/surface) or Hydro (Operating depth)
3. Makes a mistake

 

It's the same.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

You'll just know the general area where you saw his ping last.

The ping gives the exact direction? Ships with ASW planes can even blind drop on that. Difficult, but not impossible

 

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

And then he is quick enough to reposition very fast.

No, not very fast. Very fast is Kleber with 55 knots. Or maybe my Shima with 47 knots.

 

30 knots is not very fast, especially, when you have to turn a lot. Also changing the depth slows the max speed.

 

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

It is just like a turkey shoot. You will depend on the sub to make a (bad) mistake. 

Not more than in a case of most DD encounters or some other encounters. Really depends on the match up and situation. And skill also depends on an outcome. But not a turkey shoot.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

He does not depend on YOUR mistake, he can farm you at will.  

You can't generalize that.

In some cases a submarine has only a chance, when an enemy does a mistake.

 

Had today a fight against a german BB, I was not able to sink him because of

• Islands
• Hydro (forced me to go down
• German sub (only front torpedos, I can't get on distance and attack
  • This was actually the worst, because he kept chasing me. I can't get much distance and also turn around to face him, that took minutes. We actually won, because he was not able to take all 3 caps in time, only 2, but was not enough. It was just impossible for me to get on enough distance, turn around and fire at him.
• He would easily win, if he would have the cap advantage earlier and there would be nothing, I could do about

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

I do that too, but when a sub is good, you'll not know where he will go for you. 

Can happen, same with every ship type. Even a BB might suprise you now and then. That has nothing to do with submarine mechanics itself, rather more how to use the concealment and map positioning.

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Radar? Doesn't work underwater.

Do you think, that submarines are underwater for 20 minutes? Submarines have to surface. Submarines are also often at periscope depth, especially T6 and T8s.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Hydro works, but limited range & time.

Submarines have limited vision, Hydro can outspot submarines (depending on ship)

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

And subs are quite quick, they have good chance to escape.

Compared to other ships, they are rather slow. They are quick compared with realistic submarines, but this doesn't matter, because we compare the speeds ingame, not somewhere else.

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Planes cannot do anything to them when they dive.

They can spot the submarine for mapwareness....

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

At least a DD in smoke can still be bombed/torped/shot. 

And a submarines can't put water-layers on team mates to "smoke them" as well. Different mechanics have different advatanges and disadvantages.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

there will be LOTS of ships that cannot outrun them. 

Most ships outrun them or have a very similar speed. Only BBs are sometimes slower, same speed or even faster.

 

The most important part is, that you need to consider, that a submarine slows a lot itself. Only in case of moving straight line, it will be able to get max speed.

• His Attack angles are very limited
• Diving also slows the submarine, even when moving straight forward

DD>Cruiser>BB=SS

that's how I would put a generalized statement about speed. BBs and SS are the slow vessels in this game

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Also the guiding and speed of the torps

The speed is fine, they need that, imo. The guiding seems only very strong against cruisers, which feels actually good. Especially for countering those camper-cruisers. I just hit a Petro

 

 

 

idk, but that feels deserved to have a counter agianst those ships ^^'

 

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

But that is not what DCP is for, and also, then it means DCP should be shorter cooldown.

Why? DCP is now for that. Use it or not :P

Why should it be shorter? I see no reason for that.

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Because next ping, DCP is on cooldown, and he'll ping you and there is nothing you can really do. He can also trick you into it. 

You use DCP to counter the homing torps, not for being pinged.

You don't use DCP just because there is a ping. You use it, when you see torpedos, so the torpedos are countered. If he pings you after that, it doesn't matter, torpedos are then on cooldown.

 

He don't use all torpedos? Then you have to decide: Take the damage of one set, or DCP it and out run the rest of the torpedos or do something... It sounds like you use DCP on the very fist ping, are you doing that?

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

In which case you have used DCP, and you are a nice piñata for the sub and for anything spamming HE as well. 

Eh yes, and when someone spams you with HE and you use DCP, then he can spam with HE after the DCP? xD

That's how DCP works. You use it, when you need it, and after that, you have a cooldown. I don't see a reason here

 

On 9/8/2021 at 11:44 AM, BLUB__BLUB said:

It woud not fix camping, it would promote it. Nobody is gonna go in anymore, and camping is already quite bad. 

Except that camping ships are easier to hit, then ships that out-run or maneuver out of torpedos. When I play submarine, I mostly try to go for crusiers, and those who are camping at islands, are also the closest and easiest to hit.

 

 

 

 

We should shorten it down to 1 point and discuss that one. Also you seem to use the quote function in a different way, I mark the text and press the quote button, that appears at the marked area. The quotes you do, I can't press the "link" button to the quote, how are you quoting?

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:51 PM, lovelacebeer said:

 

So your argument is surface ships need to be map aware but submarines don’t? That is the issue in question your shifting claims of map awareness. It’s not about mixing cases, after all your such a big fan of making comparisons just as you keep comparing to DDs, this is just another comparison. 

 

I know from all you have written previously your arguments are devoid of any logic but you could at least try to be consistent in your arguments. 

No, you are talking about two different topcis. The recent topic was about map awareness.

The older topic was about the speed and inflexibilty of the submarines and you claimed "you want to be immune, when yolo rush without consequences"

And I showed an example, where I was not rushing. I was in a defensive spot. But because of my speed, I was not able to retreat even further. It was all about the speed, not about map awareness.

 

I even mentioned:

On 7/30/2021 at 3:07 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Same with submarines. You can have awareness like a robot, that doesn't matter, if the enemy submarine never gets spotted until it runs into your proximity range. How do you pay attention on something, that you can't see, until it's too late? ^^

I was mentioning, that you still can have perfect map awareness. But the issue is, that the submarine is slow and can't escape, once spotted by another submarine

 

But that situation is not possible anymore, they changed the Hydro and kinda fixed it a bit, so the older discussion is solved and doesn't matter anymore.

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

I'm not sure about the new 2km ping-bloom. With the old 4km a submarine had to consider, if there is a sleathed DD close by, or even if a surface ship is pushing towards the 4km. Now I don't need to consider that, it's comfortable but also feels a bit too strong and less complex

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The torps have ~10s reaction time and are seen at >2km distance.

This is all what matters: reaction time. 

It doesn't matter how much time is before that. Like a Shima with 20km torps.

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Today I was at ~2.2km to a BB, my torps didn't even start homing, too close to the target.

So, you have now started "shotgunning", just because you can? 

And this doesn't give you a clue about being broken? 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Most ships outrun them or have a very similar speed. Only BBs are sometimes slower, same speed or even faster.

This is the point: when submerged, subs should not outrun anything at all. 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Eh yes, and when someone spams you with HE and you use DCP, then he can spam with HE after the DCP? xD

That's how DCP works. You use it, when you need it, and after that, you have a cooldown. I don't see a reason here

DCP against HE means, you put out the fire AND are invulnerable for 30 seconds.

After that, he has a CHANCE to set you on fire again. But you can also go dark (unspotted), retreat behind island et cetera.

So, that HE-spammer has to spot you, hit you, and then be lucky to set a fire again. And you can even shoot back, because of gun bloom. 

 

Now tell me, if a ping gets DCP'd, how much time before the next one is pinged on the citadel?

And how do you get unspotted? The sub is faster than some BBs. He can also close in without risk.

If there is no DD nearby (and how fast are they dead... usually 5 minutes...), wel, then the BB or cruiser is usually FFd.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Then you have to decide: Take the damage of one set, or DCP it and out run the rest of the torpedos or do something...

There's the  thing. If you can outrun them... and then do what? 

BBs will not outrun subs, unless that BB  happens to be already at speed. 

And they will certainly not outrun the torps. 

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

idk, but that feels deserved to have a counter agianst those ships ^^'

 You do not need 30kts to sneak up on a camper. Also you do not need superfast, pinged homing torps. 

What you need is good stealth, and a sense of what he'l do: stay, go FWD or go RWD. That will make you able to hit a torp.

It would actually require some skill. And yeah, then they should be hitting HARD. I'm not against subs. 

Just against this stupid-easy-clubber-mode. No ship can defend against that. 

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It sounds like you use DCP on the very fist ping, are you doing that?

No. I have tried the "new style" a few times, but I'm not gonna play that crap. 

If you use DCP at the first, then you will certainly eat the second. And the third. And so on.

Because there wil be no other DCP before you are dead. Torps and citadel hits kill your BB faster than HE. 

 

32 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm not sure about the new 2km ping-bloom. With the old 4km a submarine had to consider, if there is a sleathed DD close by, or even if a surface ship is pushing towards the 4km. Now I don't need to consider that, it's comfortable but also feels a bit too strong and less complex

Ah finally you start to see some light. Is this going too far, even for you? 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

We should shorten it down to 1 point and discuss that one. Also you seem to use the quote function in a different way, I mark the text and press the quote button, that appears at the marked area. The quotes you do, I can't press the "link" button to the quote, how are you quoting?

There IS just one point, or actually two:

 

- speed of the subs themselves;

- reaction time vs speed/homing of torps.

 

Third one could be DCP. But that is a a non-issue. Pinging makes the torps go for the citadel. 

How would you think about it if ships had something similar, you'd not get fire, but if you didn't use DCP they would AP your citadel?

And then they'd just reload after you used it, and do it again. Your DCP will be on cooldown. Well, good luck on that. 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Can someone give me a link of the spotting mechanics of submarines?

 

EDIT: Official source please.

[Pikkozoikum]

17 minutes ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

Can someone give me a link of the spotting mechanics of submarines?

 

EDIT: Official source please.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Submarines_in_Ranked_and_Co-op_Battles_in_2021

 

scroll down to "submarine depth" there is a table. But might be not up to date with the recent changes

 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Submarines_in_Ranked_and_Co-op_Battles_in_2021

 

scroll down to "submarine depth" there is a table. But might be not up to date with the recent changes

 

Looking for something complete. Also how they interfere with hydro and radar.

[Pikkozoikum]

24 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

- speed of the subs themselves;

- reaction time vs speed/homing of torps.

-You could tweak the speed, but you probably need speeds in that area, since this is a fast game. Submarines are compared to other ships not very fast, especially when you consider the conditions:

• Not only steering slows them, but also submerging
• Their attack angle is limited (german T10 only frontal), thus they need to steer very often

(only base speeds, no speed boosts or skills)

 

Submarines are at the bottom speed-wise. Only submerged german T10 is faster than BBs (not by much), but then again, that requires a straight moving, no steering, no diving or surfacing. Subs don't have turrets.

 

 

52 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

- reaction time vs speed/homing of torps. 

Reaction time? It's ~10s, which is quite long for torpedos, that's because their detection range is very large.  (2.2km - 2.4km)

Though via pinging you get even earlier warned

[Dutchy_2019]

Sorry,  but the homing torpedo mechanic, and ESPECIALLY the 'undo it with the dcp' has to go.

 

One vs one it might be acceptable, but in a Ranked battle where multiple enemies are in play it is simply WAY TOO MUCH!

 

You already have to take into account (and dodge) enemy DDs, cruisers, BBs and CV''s if you are lucky. And then this nonsense shows up.

As a DD, I already often have to use my DCP to - you know - repair damage after a fight. Which means that if at that point a sub shows up with fast torpedoes who pings you, you have NO chance, and you are simply gone, as usually there is NO WAY of outturning them. It is a stupid as DDs being forced to smoke up due to the completely broken CV spotting mechanics. It is a LIMITED resource, which often is at a considerable cool down. The other alternative - as a DD - is to flail around with broken engine / fires / broken steering, because you know that using the DCP puts you at a massive risk from getting sunk by the submarine torps (as you get pinged). It is IMHO just stupid.

 

Personally I find it unacceptable that in this way ships that risk their health all game long are being punished. Especially since the ship class LEAST at risk from being targeted by the enemy through most of the game, LEAST likely to even be in range of submarines has an automated almost built in invulnerability (the AUTO-DCP mechanic) in CV's. 

 

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

17 minutes ago, LemonadeWarriorITA said:

Looking for something complete. Also how they interfere with hydro and radar.

Should be all in the table.

Radar spots on Surface and Periscope depth

Hydro spots on Surface, Periscope and Operating depth

 

Is a submarine not surfaced (Periscope to Maxmium depth), the surface ship will use the Air concealment against submarines, in case that was a question about spotting

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

You already have to take into account (and dodge) enemy DDs, cruisers, BBs and CV''s if you are lucky. And then this nonsense shows up.

Though you have to take one less surface ship into account for every submarine in the match

 

[Dutchy_2019]

8 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though you have to take one less surface ship into account for every submarine in the match

 

 

O boy, so instead of 7 you now only have to dodge 6.

 

It still is broken.

 

And as WG themselves admitted (!) in their apologies, the CV spotting mechanics are a serious problem that needs to be fixed. And with subs, they are introducing a class in that way WITH THE EXACT SAME PROBLEMS!! It is just plain stupid.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

This is all what matters: reaction time. 

It doesn't matter how much time is before that. Like a Shima with 20km torps.

It does matter. If you get 40 s earlier warned by a ping, then you can position yourself to avoide them in an optimal way. For example, if there is an island around, you can turn and accelerate. I see that often in matches, that people start doing that.

 

 

I was so sure, that I would get that DD, he was moving a straight line towards the Des Moines towards north. But then he turned left and my torps run into the island (look at the water trails)

He didn't see my torpedos, but he knew, that he is pinged. So he moved to the island, instead of keeping running away.

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

So, you have now started "shotgunning", just because you can? 

And this doesn't give you a clue about being broken? 

Don't see the context... why should it be broken?

 

• First it was not really "shotgunning", I was still undetected and used non-homing torpedos on ~2.2 km.
• Second, these torpedos do minor damage without cita-double ping (in case they would hit, they wouldn't kill him)
• Third, he managed to dodge them.

 

The torps in the background were the "shotgunned", the other pair was an attempt to try to get homing on him, which doesnt work on that distance

 

Why is that broken, when a sluggish bb avoids minor damage torpedos?

 

Also no idea, what you mean with "started". I always do that, when that is the only option. The BB pushed close towards me, so I used my torpedos, why not? Minor dmg is better than none dmg, Though a DD would do the same on 6km distance.

 

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

This is the point: when submerged, subs should not outrun anything at all. 

That was the case in Steel Ocean, and guess what: All ships were just moving away. Subs were pretty weak in high tier, they never reached an enemy. BBs moved with like 30 knots and subs with 24 surfaced and slower submerged. No chance as submarine ;)

 

But then, submerged the german submarine was faster than surfaced. In that case: If a german T10 submarine is able to outrun a ship, then that should be only submerged ;)

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

DCP against HE means, you put out the fire AND are invulnerable for 30 seconds.

After that, he has a CHANCE to set you on fire again. But you can also go dark (unspotted), retreat behind island et cetera.

So, that HE-spammer has to spot you, hit you, and then be lucky to set a fire again. And you can even shoot back, because of gun bloom. 

 

Now tell me, if a ping gets DCP'd, how much time before the next one is pinged on the citadel?

And how do you get unspotted? The sub is faster than some BBs. He can also close in without risk.

If there is no DD nearby (and how fast are they dead... usually 5 minutes...), wel, then the BB or cruiser is usually FFd.

You are mixing a lot scenarios, it's kinda hard to cover all "ifs"

 

You are talking about a BB?

Right

 

• A BB is able to outmaneuver torpedos, there is not always a need for DCP
• In case that the BB does need DCP (because he messed up something, or is not able to deal with torpedos, because of reasons), then he will be immune to pings as long he is immune to fires.
• After that he can be pinged again, but if the submarine used all torpedos, it doesn't matter, because the pings won't home any torpedos, when no torpedos are reloaded. (45s Balao, 85s U-2501)
• Other wise, if not all torpedos shot, it would probably take a minimum of DCP duration (10s for Japanese) + 8 to 10s for double ping = ~20s.  Only if the submarine is hitting the double ping directly in a row. Maneuvering makes sometimes a double ping very difficult.
• After all that, the BB should maybe recognize, that there is a submarine and maybe move after all that time, which makes avoiding even easier
• BBs are a bad example, if you want show, how broken submarines are. BBs are kinda hard to get. I mostly go for cruisers, or DDs if they are afking in smokes

Only one time a Submarine caught me in a BB. But only because I took Asashio torpedos, which destroyed my rudder and also took all my hp. So it was the Asashio, who made it possible, not that the submarine is broken.

 

When I got BB really big damaged, than mostly because they maneuvered bad, used DCP wrong or just did a general mistake. But they also often dodge my torpedos, just like I showed you on my Screenshot earlier, where I outrun torpedos with the slowest ship Shikishima.

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

There's the  thing. If you can outrun them... and then do what? 

BBs will not outrun subs, unless that BB  happens to be already at speed. 

And they will certainly not outrun the torps. 

The same, what you would do against DDs? I really have no clue, what kind of scenario you have in mind.

 

I just showed you, where I outrun torpedos with a 27 knot BB

I was way closer at the first ping, but turned full away and kept the speed. I also was pinged, but that ran out.

 

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You do not need 30kts to sneak up on a camper. Also you do not need superfast, pinged homing torps. 

You kinda had that in Steel Ocean and at high tiers the only way to have success was, that an enemy did a big mistake. Otherwise they just run away and kill your time.

If you make submarines slower, then they will lose impact, because they are not able to reach a position. Submarines often get spotted by Radar, hydro, planes, other subs. Once that happens, the whole team will be aware and just circle around position to stay out of range.

That happen often to me, they saw me once, then they kept moving around islands and avoided me, while I was useless

 

The speed of the torpedos is also nessecary, because they are not like DDs with 40-50 knots at a flank and drop them into their side. Submarines are to inflexbile in positioning.

 

Before the speed buff, I noticed it often, that it was jsut often not possible to do anything, because the torps never reachead a target in time.

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Ah finally you start to see some light. Is this going too far, even for you?

I like complexity, and that change takes it away. I can see, why they changed that, because it's quite weird mechanic with a 4km "ping bloom" and makes the gameplay pretty difficult and confusing.

It is clearly a buff, but I also liked the idea of counterplay and the mind games of submarines. Submerged, not knowing if a DD is in 4km range and going for a risk or better not. But with the change, it's more comfortable, because you don't have to mind this aspect.

 

But also the DiveCap depletion change of 2 to 4 units makes a big difference. I just surfaced from Operating depth to surface with an active radar around and that cost me 15s of DiveCap. Just because I was for a few seconds (~4s) on periscope depth.

 

The rearming time should be maybe 2.5s, but 2s is already much better. Shotgunning is still possible, but also way harder and I think that should be an option, that a submarine goes for a risk and gets rewarded, in case the DD messes up

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

38 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

O boy, so instead of 7 you now only have to dodge 6.

 

It still is broken.

 

And as WG themselves admitted (!) in their apologies, the CV spotting mechanics are a serious problem that needs to be fixed. And with subs, they are introducing a class in that way WITH THE EXACT SAME PROBLEMS!! It is just plain stupid.

Don't know, why it has the exact same problems, it is the the opposite class. The CV spotting is rather an issue ,because the planes are so fast. A submarine is pretty slow and has limited vision... the opposite^^

 

But what I actually mean, in a 7vs7 you don't fight 7 ships, rahter you have 2 or 3 ships directly confronting you in many cases.

If you have to fight on your flank a DD, cruiser and BB or SS, cruiser and BB shouldn't make much of a difference.

[Dutchy_2019]

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Don't know, why it has the exact same problems, it is the the opposite class. The CV spotting is rather an issue ,because the planes are so fast. A submarine is pretty slow and has limited vision... the opposite^^

 

But what I actually mean, in a 7vs7 you don't fight 7 ships, rahter you have 2 or 3 ships directly confronting you in many cases.

If you have to fight on your flank a DD, cruiser and BB or SS, cruiser and BB shouldn't make much of a difference.

 

With ranked (especially) on smaller maps you are in range of a whole lot.

 

The problem is the homing torps. Because as a DD when coming out of a fight, you often HAVE to DCP, simply because in fights stuff gets broken. And at that point the homing torpedos are pinged in, and there is NOTHING you can do - as they are too fast and too bendy. If you can dodge them it is more luck than skill. And where a cruiser or BB can often survive a single hit, for a DD it is pretty much over at that point.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Should be all in the table.

Radar spots on Surface and Periscope depth

Hydro spots on Surface, Periscope and Operating depth

 

Is a submarine not surfaced (Periscope to Maxmium depth), the surface ship will use the Air concealment against submarines, in case that was a question about spotting

Can you explain to me why I am spotted and the submarine is not? Is it because the submarine is on operating depth?

 

Added screenshot & replay file

 

 

 

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