General Submarines related discussions

[Pikkozoikum]

15 minutes ago, togMOR said:

Still, it is a very valid point in terms of possible counterplay.

Not really, the heal has not much to do with the submarines. I mentioned it only as counter for fires.

Consider, that mostly all ships can cause effects, that can be DCP'ed

 

Battleships can set fires or damage your whole engines/rudder

Crusiers mostly set you on fire or damage modules

DDs set you on fire and floods

Submarines cause floods or even counter the homing+potential floods

 

21 minutes ago, togMOR said:

Homing or "curving" yes, but not chasing the target and turning like Professor Fates torpedo of doom in pursuit of Tony Curtis ...

 

If the homing would be weaker, everyone would dodge them constantly. Because homing is predicable. DD torps often hit, because they come surprising

 

If the homing should be weaker, then they need to be more stealthy and no ping warning

 

If you take something away, you have to give something back to make the balance

 

24 minutes ago, togMOR said:

I fully agree.

But if this can be achieved in most cases only by applying "mechanics" then the base design for the class remains rather questionable in my book.

What do you mean "only applying "mechanics""? Alone the pinging has to be aimed, but also how, when, in which angle you launch the torpedo has to be considered. That, and then combined with timing of the pinging, "when" do I ping.

I personally see there way more complexity, than "just applying mechanics"

As I mentioned earlier, there are many conditions.

 

Homing torpedos have a lot advantages balanced with a lot disadvantages.

 

 

[togMOR]

Vor 2 Stunden, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Not really, the heal has not much to do with the submarines. I mentioned it only as counter for fires.

So why did you bring it up then in connection with cruisers ... to save the DCP (for pings probably) because the can heal fire damage ... which they cant until T9 ...

I´m out ...

[Pikkozoikum]

10 hours ago, togMOR said:

So why did you bring it up then in connection with cruisers ... to save the DCP (for pings probably) because the can heal fire damage ... which they cant until T9 ...

I´m out ...

Why do you focus on the unimportant points and ignore the rest? ;D

Just said that fires are not a big deal, with heal even less.

 

And no, you don't save DCP for pings.... You use DCP for critical situations. If there is no submarine close by, why would you save DCP?^^

 

You have to consider, that submarine takes a slot instead of a surface ships. So how does it matter, if there is a submarine, that you can clear with DCP, or if there is one more HE spammer?

In the and, there is one more ship, that can force you to DCP

 

The big difference though is, that the HE spammer will still do dmg even without fires. The DCP can counter floods and torp dmg against submarines. So the DCP is a hard counter tool against submarine torpedos, or a anti fire tool

 

So I don't see the point, why that is bad. I mean, it's bad for submarines

[BLUB__BLUB]

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

To make it more clear.

You can use DCP to counter 100% dmg of an enemy ship

You can use DCP to counter fires of an enemy ship

DCP doesn't counter 100%. Even if you manage to smack it in a millisecond and no fire damage resulted, you still lose XP due to the HE hit.

Same on DD torpedoes. It just fixes the resulting floods and fires, AFTER the avoiding has failed. 

And even when it removes the ping, it does not make the torpedoes duds, or sink, so you will still have to make an avoiding manoeuvre.

 

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sounds for me like an overpowered tool :P

Sounds to me like you didn't grasp the meaning of "action". 

Also, what is DCP now - your ship is pinged, is it melting? What is to repair?

[togMOR]

Vor 8 Stunden, Pikkozoikum sagte:

In the and, there is one more ship, that can force you to DCP

So DCP has to be adjusted accordingly to cover the additional "critical situation" ... either by shortening the cooldown or extending the action time.

But no, subs do not affect the existing global balance system ;)

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

 

Absolute bizarre pvp gameplay. Aaron just basically farmed a ranked match for 10 minutes while hardly being threatened. He ends up vs. 2 battleships that have no chance in hell to do any damage to him unless he makes a mistake, which he does because he's so high on being invulnerable for 10 minutes straight, and the ONLY thing that might have gotten him killed was him being silly. I didn't think WG could damage pvp gameplay any harder, but they did it. Carriers and subs, the 2 worst pvp class designs I have EVER seen in 25 years of gaming. My god 

[mtm78]

7 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Absolute bizarre pvp gameplay.

I can't even finish watching that, just seeing something which should at MOST go 17kts submerged and only 7kts when running silent run around in this game at full speed..

 

And those torps.. it's like a sci-fi game, there wasn't ANYTHING even close to that at the time. 

 

It looks nice, art department should get another  but gameplay wise it's abomination! 

[CrabCrusher]

I expected the sub and even more so the anti sub gameplay to be horrific but well, little did I know. In ranked, it s an absolute nightmare, german sub outspot all dds just by sitting there torping away. In general they re insanely boring to play and a nightmare to play against, I don t even find it rewarding if I slap a BB or get a DD killed by outspotting them when I play a sub. I wonder if this is just all about making the dreadful CV- ship interaction look half harmless coz subs clearly have the potential to be worse for the overall gameplay than CVs are.

The mere thought that you seriously consider putting this kinda abomination into the game makes me consider quitting the game altogether. Literally everyone I knew playing WoWs either quit due to CVs or the commander change and seeing and playing this class knowing that you consider putting it into the game makes me think, I just wasted my time and money staying with the game.

I could imagine special PvE campaigns for subs but anything PvP would be a big no go....oh and what about stats and the stat sites that motivate literally everyone I used to know to play and to improve? Apparently even wows-numbers is complaining about difficulties due to the API and sub changes...

Overall, it s just horrid and I regret the time and money spent given the direction all this is going.

[Pikkozoikum]

8 hours ago, CrabCrusher said:

I expected the sub and even more so the anti sub gameplay to be horrific but well, little did I know. In ranked, it s an absolute nightmare, german sub outspot all dds just by sitting there torping away. In general they re insanely boring to play and a nightmare to play against, I don t even find it rewarding if I slap a BB or get a DD killed by outspotting them when I play a sub. I wonder if this is just all about making the dreadful CV- ship interaction look half harmless coz subs clearly have the potential to be worse for the overall gameplay than CVs are.

The mere thought that you seriously consider putting this kinda abomination into the game makes me consider quitting the game altogether. Literally everyone I knew playing WoWs either quit due to CVs or the commander change and seeing and playing this class knowing that you consider putting it into the game makes me think, I just wasted my time and money staying with the game.

I could imagine special PvE campaigns for subs but anything PvP would be a big no go....oh and what about stats and the stat sites that motivate literally everyone I used to know to play and to improve? Apparently even wows-numbers is complaining about difficulties due to the API and sub changes...

Overall, it s just horrid and I regret the time and money spent given the direction all this is going.

Though germans will be the only nation, that has good concealment. Russian SS have the same size like USN SS. Japanese SS will be probably even larger (maybe 6.1km concealment?)

So germans are the best concealed submarines of all submarines.

For DDs, you have ships like Asashio or Kagero with 5.4 km, Shima with 5.6 km. The best concealed DDs have better (or same) concealment than the best concealed SS

[Pikkozoikum]

16 hours ago, togMOR said:

So DCP has to be adjusted accordingly to cover the additional "critical situation" ... either by shortening the cooldown or extending the action time.

But no, subs do not affect the existing global balance system ;)

No, it doesn't need to be adjusted, because the situation didn't change: There will be ships, that cause efffects, that can be DCP'ed

 

When there is a 7vs7:

 

First situation: Enemy team has 4 vessels, that can force the DCP

Second situation: Enemy team has 4 vessels, that can force the DCP

 

Do you see any difference? In one situation the enemy team has one HE spammer / DD more, the other has a submarine instead.

 

Aside that, the DCP against submarine is way more powerful, than against a HE spammer. Don't know, why any one would complain about that. It's like you could buff your torpedobelt by +50% against DD torpedos, when DCP is active...That's how powerful it is against SS (and actually more).

 

 

Only thing, that can be annoying is the "shotgun" move. I once got shotgunned, but on the other hand, that submarine played it smart. On the top, the arming time will get increased to 2s (0.5s before)

[Pikkozoikum]

22 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

On 9/4/2021 at 6:46 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

To make it more clear.

You can use DCP to counter 100% dmg of an enemy ship

You can use DCP to counter fires of an enemy ship

DCP doesn't counter 100%. Even if you manage to smack it in a millisecond and no fire damage resulted, you still lose XP due to the HE hit.

Same on DD torpedoes. It just fixes the resulting floods and fires, AFTER the avoiding has failed. 

And even when it removes the ping, it does not make the torpedoes duds, or sink, so you will still have to make an avoiding manoeuvre.

It counters 100% of the submarine torpedo, if done right. That is what it meant by counter 100% dmg.
 

You get pinged -> you see torpedos -> you assume, they will hit -> DCP -> you turn away -> Torpedos miss 0% dmg.

 

 

Though it depends on the ship, different ships should use it in a different way. BB can gamble for a dodge without dcp and use dcp only, if they are about to hit, to remove the cita-boost dmg effect

Cruisers and DDs should use it earlier, since there DCP CD is shorter and the hits hurt them more.

 

22 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Quote

Sounds for me like an overpowered tool :P

Sounds to me like you didn't grasp the meaning of "action". 

When you quote only a single sentence, insteand of the full text... I even mentioned, that BBs can dodge ;)

There is a lot, that can be done, starting with map awareness.

 

22 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Also, what is DCP now - your ship is pinged, is it melting? What is to repair?

We're not playing WarThunder or a Simulation. It's a PvP game with "consumables", where "Radar" can be consumated. For the case, it is not understood: The major focus is on PvP and PvP-Elements. Not about having realistic gameplay. We have stuff in this game, that could be part of a fantasy roleplay

 

[Belal24]

22 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It counters 100% of the submarine torpedo, if done right. That is what it meant by counter 100% dmg.

So I only need to use DCP the right way to get no sub torp damage...

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Belal24 said:

So I only need to use DCP the right way to get no sub torp damage...

And maybe use WASD

 

The DCP is the effect, that makes it quite easily possible.

[Belal24]

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And maybe use WASD

Sorry didn't read WASD

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Belal24 said:

Sorry didn't read WASD

I would assume, that basics should be applied, same as breathing while playing :P

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It counters 100% of the submarine torpedo, if done right. That is what it meant by counter 100% dmg

Yeah and if done right a cruiser can end any match with 100% HP in tact. 

 

DCP is normally used to stop a KNOWN AMOUNT OF DAMAGE already being applied to the ship. DCP-ing sub pings is DCP-ing THE PING, not the torpedoes. If you'd look and actually listen to what Aaron says in the video I posted, he even talks about baiting players into using DCP before actually attacking and pinging them for real. Some of his DCP pings actually had the torpedoes still hit and SINK a ship due to flooding of the next set. That means these players use DCP for ZERO damage reduction effect other then being unpingable for 20-30 secs, or a whole minute if you happen to play the other bizarro class.

 

And before you start blabbing about 'doing it right' again, I'll remind you that most players of the infamous anonymous majority that shills usually throw around, will never learn how to 'do it right'. Nobody will explain it to them, including WG.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I would assume, that basics should be applied, same as breathing while playing :P

You always assume that what fits your narrative sadly, not what will most likely happen in the real world. That is why discussing these topics with you is an endless void.

[togMOR]

Vor 1 Stunde, Pikkozoikum sagte:

No, it doesn't need to be adjusted, because the situation didn't change: There will be ships, that cause efffects, that can be DCP'ed

Of course the situation changed.

In my perception the DCP consumable is somewhat "balanced" around the fire and flooding mechanics and to a certain extent saturation as well, which is connected to the former.

Now the ping mechanics are added on top of that.

 

Thus especially cruiser are now much more prone to subs and their attached ping and homing mechanics than battleships, because cruiser up and until T8 cannot counterheal as a substitute and have DCP as the only means to stop fires and floodings once they are in a critical stage.

So either the homing characteristics on cruisers are toned down to the same level as on battleships or at least the cruiser DCP has to be adjusted to take into account the additional "workload".

The latter will make the subs play even more strenuous and therefore less appealing for the player.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And maybe use WASD

 

The DCP is the effect, that makes it quite easily possible.

I always love those posts of you, that clearly show that many mechanics of the game are far beyond your ability of comprehension.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It counters 100% of the submarine torpedo, if done right. That is what it meant by counter 100% dmg.
 

You get pinged -> you see torpedos -> you assume, they will hit -> DCP -> you turn away -> Torpedos miss 0% dmg.

It does not. You need to use DCP and turn away. The last part should suffice, if you do it well. It does for every thing else.

That is "action" and DCP is mitigation. I hope you understand the difference. LOOK: 

 

1 hour ago, Europizza said:

DCP is normally used to stop a KNOWN AMOUNT OF DAMAGE already being applied to the ship. DCP-ing sub pings is DCP-ing THE PING, not the torpedoes. If you'd look and actually listen to what Aaron says in the video I posted, he even talks about baiting players into using DCP before actually attacking and pinging them for real. Some of his DCP pings actually had the torpedoes still hit and SINK a ship due to flooding. That means these players use DCP for ZERO damage reduction effect other then being unpingable for 20-30 secs, or a whole minute if you happen to play the other bizarro class.

...and this is why, while not opposed to subs (I think they can be made to be fun and an asset),

WeeGee has done the thing again and made them another Reeeework. 

 

What it would need is that every ship gets a "degaussing button", with appropriate refresh.

Or just remove the pinging of surface ships. Then next, the insane speeds need to be nerfed. 

Subs can be made to be fun and fitting, they do not have to be historically correct - but this is ridiculous.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It does not. You need to use DCP and turn away. The last part should suffice, if you do it well. It does for every thing else.

Oh, you actually need your fingers on the keyboard? ;D

 

Turning away is still suffice and DCP is only against hard hits. Just like against fires. Do you use DCP on every single fire? Do you use DCP ond 2 fires, when you know, torps will probably income in a few seconds?

 

Same with DCP against submarines, you use it, when you know, you need it.

You don't need it, if no torps are incoming (after pings hit you)

You don't need it, if you can outrun the torpedos

You don't need it, if you can turn the torps into an island

You don't need it, if you can perform evasive maneuver

You don't need it, if the damage won't be too high

 

But you can also combine it. For example only one double set of torpedos are incoming and would only do little dmg. but you also have a fire. So you clear fire and torpedos, insteand of lettin fire burn and take the single damage

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That is "action" and DCP is mitigation. I hope you understand the difference. LOOK: 

Mitigation is also an action?

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

What it would need is that every ship gets a "degaussing button", with appropriate refresh.

Or just remove the pinging of surface ships. Then next, the insane speeds need to be nerfed. 

Subs can be made to be fun and fitting, they do not have to be historically correct - but this is ridiculous.

Slowing them down, remove homing. Any more nerfs? ;D

As I said, if you nerf something, you need a balance, and you need to buff them somewhere else. If you remove homing, the subs will probably get 20k dmg torps to compensate the rare hits. I don't mind to one hit BBs ;D

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, togMOR said:

Now the ping mechanics are added on top of that.

But always, when you have one ship, that pings, you will have one less ship that can cause fires

 

When you have a 7vs7 with 4 submarines and 3 BB in the enemy team. How often will you use your DCP for countering fires?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

Mitigation is also an action?

No it is not. It is a "consumable". 

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Slowing them down, remove homing. Any more nerfs? ;D

As I said, if you nerf something, you need a balance, and you need to buff them somewhere else.

Yes it is a "nerf". And yes you'd need something else buffed.

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you remove homing, the subs will probably get 20k dmg torps to compensate the rare hits. I don't mind to one hit BBs ;D

10 K is plenty, if you hit both torps you have 10K (with belt protection) to 20K (both hit citadel) plus resulting floods. 

Also this is nothing out of the ordinary, many torps do that kind of damage and BBs do not "sink at once" unless they eat all DD torpedoes.

Chances for damage might better be enhanced by making flooding chances bigger (or torpedo belt reduction less good vs sub torps). 

 

Here's the BS though, I'd also like subs in game - but not like this:

You don't need it, if no torps are incoming (after pings hit you) --> you do not see them right after launch...

You don't need it, if you can outrun the torpedos --> good luck on that in Lolorado...

You don't need it, if you can turn the torps into an island---> good luck on that too, now that hey increased speed and homing...

You don't need it, if you can perform evasive maneuver ---> hahaha yes "just dodge" like CVs, again good luck on that in the Lolorado....

You don't need it, if the damage won't be too high ---> you are making subs a DoT thing then (like HE spam), which is exactly what we DO NOT need. 

[1MajorKoenig]

Moin main issue is the pinging. And that is not so much for a T10 match - I think you can make a case for that considering we have 1960s designs there

 

But for T6 and T8 it just sucks and feels out of place 

[Gvozdika]

9 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Moin main issue is the pinging. And that is not so much for a T10 match - I think you can make a case for that considering we have 1960s designs there

 

But for T6 and T8 it just sucks and feels out of place 

With the exception of the US GUPPY-type thingy at T10 the German XXI is about twenty years off isn't it? 

Let's be clear here. By the time you had torpedoes that could be 'guided' - e.g. the submarine and torpedoes could effectively communicate/update post-launch - you are looking at the late 1950s/early 1960s for the US. The Royal Navy more or less on a par - behind in some areas but ahead in others. Everyone was understandably unsure of the merits of letting the Germans loose with any submarine bigger than a bathtub (the whole U-boat thing being in living memory) so their tech more or less matched the rest of NATO until they were allowed a free hand in terms of defence in the 1960s/70s onwards. The French did their own thing....(goodness knows). The Russians were about 10-15 years behind the West in terms of processing power if nothing else. Even their first SSNs - the Novembers - had largely 'dumb' torpedoes that just sought out the loudest/most interesting thing they could find within a search pattern. 

 

As for ships by this point? Well missiles had pretty much replaced guns - making most ships a no fly zone for dozens of miles around them. Supersonic naval aviation was alive and kicking. The guns that remained could basically radar-direct shellfire every 2-3 seconds with scary degrees of accuracy. 

 

Put simply - subs are cramming in technology and abilities that do not belong in the WOWS timeframe (big-gun ships). It would break the game if you gave the surface ship players similar era abilities to those being gifted to submarines. It would break the game even more if CV players got 1960s toys to play with. The question thus begged - if you have to boost the performance and abilities of a class SO MUCH to squeeze it into a game - the class has no business being in the game in the first place.

[1MajorKoenig]

Just now, Gvozdika said:

With the exception of the US GUPPY-type thingy at T10 the German XXI is about twenty years off isn't it? 

Let's be clear here. By the time you had torpedoes that could be 'guided' - e.g. the submarine and torpedoes could effectively communicate/update post-launch - you are looking at the late 1950s/early 1960s for the US. The Royal Navy more or less on a par - behind in some areas but ahead in others. Everyone was understandably unsure of the merits of letting the Germans loose with any submarine bigger than a bathtub (the whole U-boat thing being in living memory) so their tech more or less matched the rest of NATO until they were allowed a free hand in terms of defence in the 1960s/70s onwards. The French did their own thing....(goodness knows). The Russians were about 10-15 years behind the West in terms of processing power if nothing else. Even their first SSNs - the Novembers - had largely 'dumb' torpedoes that just sought out the loudest/most interesting thing they could find within a search pattern. 

 

As for ships by this point? Well missiles had pretty much replaced guns - making most ships a no fly zone for dozens of miles around them. Supersonic naval aviation was alive and kicking. The guns that remained could basically radar-direct shellfire every 2-3 seconds with scary degrees of accuracy. 

 

Put simply - subs are cramming in technology and abilities that do not belong in the WOWS timeframe (big-gun ships). It would break the game if you gave the surface ship players similar era abilities to those being gifted to submarines. It would break the game even more if CV players got 1960s toys to play with. The question thus begged - if you have to boost the performance and abilities of a class SO MUCH to squeeze it into a game - the class has no business being in the game in the first place.

Not disagreeing in general but from my perception it “feeeels” ok at T10 but completely wrong on any tier below