General Submarines related discussions

[Malim0o]

Il y a 2 heures, Pikkozoikum a dit :

Wait, that's how torpedos work. I always thought they just du 100% dmg on the section and then get reduced by protection or saturation xD

You always apply first the torp protec

And after that direct/splash dmg.

 

Citation

But the "flood coefficient" is not the damage reduction (Torpedo protection)? The flood coefficient is calculated with the torpedo protection. Probably only a mistake in the writing?

The 1-4% less dmg could be saturation

Nop flood coef isnt the torpedo protection but yeah flood coef depend of the torp protec.

You cant  saturate the mid section, you sink the ship before that happen (expect for some dd like french one)^^

 

Citation

 

The thing is, they hit the citadel, but they don't have a damage effect like shells. A citadel hit can be only healed by 10%, but is mostly protected by Torpedobelts. (At least that was my understanding yet)

Any dmg to the BB cit can be healed by 10%. But for me torp dont pen/explosed into the cit , because you dont apply max dmg. Period.

First the torpedo hit the torpedo belt and explosed and after that cit + compartement take splash dmg. (Sound logic for me )

 

 

And about my previous post, can we have some detail about torp dmg @MrConway?

[Pikkozoikum]

10 minutes ago, Malim0o said:

You always apply first the torp protec

And after that direct/splash dmg. 

It's just, what I thought before, I thought a torpedos has 100% raw damage. Then gets reduced, when it hits. But it's a bit more complex, since it has 2 types of damage.

 

11 minutes ago, Malim0o said:

Nop flood coef isnt the torpedo protection but yeah flood coef depend of the torp protec.

You cant  saturate the mid section, you sink the ship before that happen (expect for some dd like french one)^^

In the wiki it's just written weird/wrong.

I'm not sure, how the damage saturation mechanic works, I could imagine, that you do less damage, as soon a compartment has less than 100% HP. I know that the Citadel had something 300% ship HP or something like that, but depending on how dmg saturation works, it could effect.

 

But nevermind, I read up the damage saturation mechanic, this works only, when the HP is lower than the damage, which should never happen to a citadel

In case you want read it, too: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Damage_Saturation

 

17 minutes ago, Malim0o said:

Any dmg to the BB cit can be healed by 10%. But for me torp dont pen/explosed into the cit , because you dont apply max dmg. Period.

First the torpedo hit the torpedo belt and explosed and after that cit + compartement take splash dmg. (Sound logic for me )

But this mechanic shows, that it does damage to the citadel, doesn't it? It hits the citadel, which can be only healed by 10%

It can't be compared with shells, because shells don't have this type of mechanic. Shells don't cause splash (hp-)damage, except against submarines

 

Also Torpedos are not AP shells, so I would say, torpedos never "pen" or "explode" into something. They explode outside, don't they?

 

[Malim0o]

Il y a 21 minutes, Pikkozoikum a dit :

 

Also Torpedos are not AP shells, so I would say, torpedos never "pen" or "explode" into something. They explode outside, don't they?

 

Except for sub's torp with double ping ?

But yeah atm dd's torp explode when they hit like HE shell

[Pikkozoikum]

10 minutes ago, Malim0o said:

Except for sub's torp with double ping ?

But yeah atm dd's torp explode when they hit like HE shell

Really depends on how you see it. Mechanic wise all torpedos can hit the citadell, the difference is, that submarine torpedos have an additional mechanic to increase their damage by hitting the citadel. The submarine torpedos still hit the torpedo belt. The protection is still applied on the (increased) damage.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

On 8/29/2021 at 11:19 PM, ba22er said:

I did not enjoy my expweience in games with subs weather trying to kill them or playing them. They are too historically inaccurate. First unlimited aircraft on carriers now submersible speedboats with weared unrealistic vision mechanics.

I was looking forward to subs as I play several sub simulators but there is nothing that I can see that makes thes subs rather than sinking ships as they appear to be equiped with windows when underwater. 

Ill give it a few months then possibly try again and if subs are everywhere Ill probably give up playing.

 

Well now you mention speed boats, seeing as WoT's has there fancy wheeled EBR's, can we have some E Boats and MTB's?


I say this in jest before everyone bites my head off

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

Well now you mention speed boats, seeing as WoT's has there fancy wheeled EBR's, can we have some E Boats and MTB's?


I say this in jest before everyone bites my head off

Someone once mentioned a Torpedo boat design, that the player would control a few boats similar to the CV squads. In that case it could work, but don't know, if that is much fun

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

can we have some E Boats and MTB's?

Did you ever play "Operation Dynamo", that already had E-boats in it. 

[lovelacebeer]

27 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Did you ever play "Operation Dynamo", that already had E-boats in it. 

I miss that operation so much it was great fun 

[BLUB__BLUB]

37 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

I miss that operation so much it was great fun 

It was, the constant attacks and the very very fast torpedo boats. 

Maybe they should make a similar thing with subs. 

[lovelacebeer]

15 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

It was, the constant attacks and the very very fast torpedo boats. 

Maybe they should make a similar thing with subs. 

Considering how resistant they are to operations and only very begrudgingly allowing for the eventual return of the missing OPs I sadly doubt they would make a new one. 
 

It’s a real pity too an operation escorting a convoy through waves of U boats and air attacks would be fantastic 

[nX79]

21 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though every ship can hit the citadel, only subs get a damage boost with double pings, in return this effect can be countered. I see the balance there.

 

Well, subs need to be in a good position...ok. if this is given and you double ping the enemy who has dmg con on cooldown...you totally shred him. You have your opinion. No problem. I have my experience from ranked, test iterations and co-op. I could repeat my feedback....but hey ..WG gives a crap..so do I nowadays and remain silent with feedback. I wait, watch and act accordingly. Very easy. WG lost a formerly enthusiastic and really good money spending customer of the first hours. And I am not alone - Oh No ! ! 

 

But let there be fresh customers attracted by the kiddie like smart phone gaming style. ... just strange that the average player age is way higher in this game. Not sure if WG considers this fact enough. Many people want SOLID, SKILL BASED MECHANICS AND SURFACE SHIP WARFARE, instead of 5-10 min rolling the dice gambling. 

 

Subs changed through the times, the result is always the same. Mechanics do no good to the game, none of your arguments/statements changes that. 

 

I see limited balance and have hope that the bloody boring gameplay helps that people don't play subs often once the novelty is gone. 

 

You seem a little WG biased. But ok, WG is really in need of guys like you nowadays. 

 

.....and no need to continue the discussion, sry. Not interested anymore. Let them do whatever they want. 

 

Have a good one

[Pikkozoikum]

54 minutes ago, nX79 said:

ok. if this is given and you double ping the enemy who has dmg con on cooldown...

With dmg con on cooldown, you still have plenty of options. But if you are cherry picking a scenario, then it will lead to a specific scneario and may sound op.

 

When a cruisers shows broadside and I oneshot him, then this is fine, because he did the mistake.

But if a submarine gets some good hits, because the other ship does mistakes, it's not fine.

 

Why is that different, when they do mistakes in both cases? They have to be punished. I played over 100 submarine games and a lot surface ship games with all different ships. The outcome is often about the player.

 

1. Be aware of the submarine. The submarine is slow, it has not 40 knots like a DD, it has not 33 knots like a cruiser and has to to be pointing towards an enemy, which makes it inflexible. With Awareness alone, a submarine can be countered
2. Pinging of a submarine are also warning, that a submarine is on you -> Torpedos probably incoming
3. Use the homing against the submarine. Move the torpedos against islands
4. Move away, outrun the torpedos. Germany Torpedos only have 11 km, less with curving. 14 km Balao. (most ships can outrange with guns anyways)
5. Depending on ship and maneuver, you can dodge torpedos or reduce the damage, when they hit only the bow/stern

 

This is all without DCP. So DCP is also very strong counter option

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

.you totally shred him

And why? Was "he" stationary and afk?

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

You have your opinion. No problem. I have my experience from ranked

The question is, if all mechanics and counterplays are known, because that is essential for the "experience". Right now it sounds like, you have the opinion, that a submarine always do big hits, as soon dcp is on cool down.

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

I could repeat my feedback....but hey ..WG gives a crap

The developers already took a lot feedback into account

 

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

so do I nowadays and remain silent with feedback

It's about, how you give feedback. If you go with "That's crap" "It's op", then they will notice, "Hmm, maybe something is wrong", but they will go with their own conclusion, they don't know, why you think that. It's not well explained, why something could be wrong. It should be well explained, so the developers can comprehend the issue, you got.

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

Many people want SOLID, SKILL BASED MECHANICS AND SURFACE SHIP WARFARE, instead of 5-10 min rolling the dice gambling. 

But you know, you have a game with dispersion? It's gambling/randomness. Submarines are less of gambling, because they have very clean and readable mechanics, and less dispersion.

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

Subs changed through the times, the result is always the same. Mechanics do no good to the game, none of your arguments/statements changes that. 

Though that is your opinion, not a fact. My arguments/statements don't have to change your opinin, though I try to explain the situation from a different view. There is a saying "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence"

I'm pretty sure, if we would have a game with only BBs and cruisers and would afterwards implement the DDs,we would have the same type of rant, that these class is broken and doesn't fit into the game because of high speed, stealth attacks, battle influence etc.

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

I see limited balance

Why?

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

have hope that the bloody boring gameplay helps that people don't play subs often once the novelty is gone. 

That will happen, submarines are in all games a niche class. That's the nature of submarines, no matter how they are designed. Slow with short range -> people want fast ships with a lot impact

 

1 hour ago, nX79 said:

You seem a little WG biased. But ok, WG is really in need of guys like you nowadays. 

This is prejudging and blind.

I like submarines in general, and I just know, how the mechanics works. That has nothing to do, if I like WG or not.

If I give positive feedback, because I think something is good. Then that has nothing to do, if I like WG or not.

 

If you need negative feedback from me, then you have to use search function, you might find some. For example about the J5N. I also wrote very detailed feedbacks about the submarines, how to change them.

 

I could also say, you are Anti-WG... what does that matter? It's sounds like you go a lot with emotional rant, instead of looking in the situation and figure out, how it works. You can show a replay and we analyze it, if submarines are "op" or if there were just mistakes made.

 

 

[togMOR]

Vor 18 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

When a cruisers shows broadside and I oneshot him, then this is fine, because he did the mistake.

But if a submarine gets some good hits, because the other ship does mistakes, it's not fine.

(1) in that case the cruiser got shred to piesces by projectiles which flew in a straight line (bearing wise) and could be potentially outmaneuvered

(2) here we have a different scenario and the cruiser got shred by projectiles that follow the target to a certain extent and negate most of the evasive action

 

It´s not about the sub getting good hits but it is about the underlying "crazy" mechanics to assist the sub in achieving those hits.

 

Vor 18 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Submarines are less of gambling, because they have very clean and readable mechanics, and less dispersion.

That´s the best one so far ... xD

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, togMOR said:

(1) in that case the cruiser got shred to piesces by projectiles which flew in a straight line (bearing wise) and could be potentially outmaneuvered

(2) here we have a different scenario and the cruiser got shred by projectiles that follow the target to a certain extent and negate most of the evasive action

 

It´s not about the sub getting good hits but it is about the underlying "crazy" mechanics to assist the sub in achieving those hits. 

 

It's not about the mechanics. It's about recognizing a mistake. Everyone knows, that he made a mistake, when sitting full broadside against a BB. But the mistake against submarines is not recognized. Thus people think, it is the fault of the "mechanic" and not of the player, who don't know, how to play against it.

 

We can go back, when I started WOWS. I played before that Steel Ocean, in that game, torpedos are always visible.

I know, that shells in my broadside would hurt me. So I know, when I do a mistake against shells.

What I didn't know, that torpedos have concealment and got all of the sudden torped from the side, even though I checked seconds earlier for Torps.

 

I could say back then "this is broken".  But in the end, it was my mistake, not a bad mechanic or anything. I just didn't know, how to play against that earlier, I didn't know, that torpedos were concealed and I played that wrong.

 

 

The thing is, if you give submarines "normal" torpedos, then this will have also disadvantages.

• A submarine is slow and inflexible
• A submarine relies on torpedo, no main guns
• A submarine has less team-consumables
• So it's mostly about, that torpedos have success.
• If the SS-torpedos are now "normal", then they need to compensate all these points. That means, they need to be able to hit something with enough damage.
  • Homing torpedos have probably a higher hit rate, then normal torpedos. That means, the damage can be lower.
  • But with normal torpedos, you would need a lot damage, to compensate the lower hit rate
  • But also you need those torpedos stronger to compensate other disadvantages like "no main guns", "Slow submarine"
  • The combination of all these disadvantages need to go into the torpedo design, to make it balanced for the submarine

 

I'm sure, people will complain then, too, when they do mistakes and get one shotted. ^^

 

[togMOR]

Vor 1 Stunde, Pikkozoikum sagte:

It's not about the mechanics. It's about recognizing a mistake. Everyone knows, that he made a mistake, when sitting full broadside against a BB. But the mistake against submarines is not recognized. Thus people think, it is the fault of the "mechanic" and not of the player, who don't know, how to play against it.

Of course it is about the mechanics.

If i got deleted / heavily damaged in a cruiser while broadsiding to heavy guns, the fault is mine. Since the salvoes are flying with an unchangable straight bearing i can attempt to avoid some damage by angling in or away.

If i got deleted / heavily damaged in a cruiser while broadsiding to a subs torpedos, the fault is mine if i do not attempt to dodge the torps. That is without a doubt.

But if i turn and maneuver and getting hit regardless by the homing torpedos it is the "fault" of the mechanic!

 

Vor 1 Stunde, Pikkozoikum sagte:

The thing is, if you give submarines "normal" torpedos, then this will have also disadvantages.

I fully agree on that.

But on the flip side this is (and was from the beginning) exactly my biggest concern with the class.

To make the subs even remotly working they have to introduce a set of "interesting" mechanics.

[Pikkozoikum]

8 minutes ago, togMOR said:

Of course it is about the mechanics.

If i got deleted / heavily damaged in a cruiser while broadsiding to heavy guns, the fault is mine. Since the salvoes are flying with an unchangable straight bearing i can attempt to avoid some damage by angling in or away.

If i got deleted / heavily damaged in a cruiser while broadsiding to a subs torpedos, the fault is mine if i do not attempt to dodge the torps. That is without a doubt.

But if i turn and maneuver and getting hit regardless by the homing torpedos it is the "fault" of the mechanic! 

Okay, what you are saying is

 

Shells: I do nothing -> hard hits, I do something -> less hits

SS Torps: I do nothing -> hard hits, I do something -> less hits, but it's the mechanics fault

 

If I'm able to play around a damage source, and can avoide damage, then it's my doing. No matter what mechanic

If I don't understand the mechanics and get deleted, then I did a mistake, no matter if that are shells or torpedos.

 

How do I explain that. The mechanics are different. But that is not the reason, why someone can complain about these mechanics, if they are not understood, how to counter them.

It's a homing mechanic, yes. But it's possible to play against that. There are many ways.

 

I could also say "I tryed to dodge shells, but they still hit me, because they have 800-1000 m/s shell speed", it's the mechanics fault!

 

 

17 minutes ago, togMOR said:

I fully agree on that.

But on the flip side this is (and was from the beginning) exactly my biggest concern with the class.

To make the subs even remotly working they have to introduce a set of "interesting" mechanics.

I see nothing wrong with that, but it often feels like, that many have a "boomer-like" mindset. New content? No, that can't work. New mechanics? They don't fit into the game. As soon anything new comes up, people are against it. Do you remember the modul for torpedo spotting on 1.8 km? Some people said, DDs would be dead with that. To hard countered. And how is it nowadays?

 

It was obvious, that they need to adapt the submarines for this game. But that's mostly because this game is very arcadey and already bending many physics aside there are pvp-goals and parameters.

 

[togMOR]

Vor 29 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Okay, what you are saying is

 

Shells: I do nothing -> hard hits, I do something -> less hits

SS Torps: I do nothing -> hard hits, I do something -> less hits, but it's the mechanics fault

You don´t want to grasp it ...

Regarding sub torps i say:

* I do nothing, don´t turn or change speed - hard hits ... rightly so

* I do something, i turn, change speed - (hard) hits as well, because "mechanics"

[Pikkozoikum]

37 minutes ago, togMOR said:

You don´t want to grasp it ...

Regarding sub torps i say:

* I do nothing, don´t turn or change speed - hard hits ... rightly so

* I do something, i turn, change speed - (hard) hits as well, because "mechanics"

Then you probably do it wrong. Depending on ship and situation, you are able to dodge 100%

Or if they hit the bow/stern, they do max ~7k dmg each torpedo. I can show you tons of screenshots, where people avoide those torpedos.

 

For me it sounds like:

 

Shells

I do nothing, I take full hits

I do something, I might still take hits by RNG dispersion or good prediction

 

DD-Torpedos

I do nothing, I take multiple torpedos

I do something, I might still take a torpedo and 10-20k damage. But because of "mechanics"

(The mechanics here is, that torpedos have concealment unlike shells. Different mechanics)

 

 

If it's about, that shells only hit, because of RNG dispersion etc, we could also make the homing torpedo even better homing, but give them a high dud-chance. Then there is the RNG included in those torpedos as well.

But we have to keep in mind, we can't balance one-sided. Subs need to do something as well, they need also hits. A high dud-chance would probably lead to a damage buff on the torpedos.

 

Some Dodges

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Using the homing to your advantage to turn torpedos into islands

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[togMOR]

Vor 1 Stunde, Pikkozoikum sagte:

DD-Torpedos

I do nothing, I take multiple torpedos

I do something, I might still take a torpedo and 10-20k damage. But because of "mechanics"

(The mechanics here is, that torpedos have concealment unlike shells. Different mechanics)

We´re not talking about destroyer torpedos but about the homing sub torpedos.

If you are timing it right you have a good chance to avoid even all destroyer torps but not sub torps since due to the homing mechanics they will even chase you (up to a certain point of course) and hit you regardless.

 

And yes, you can trick and avoid homing torpedoes by using the islands ... so we have a mechanic that adds much enjoyment to both sides ;)

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, togMOR said:

We´re not talking about destroyer torpedos but about the homing sub torpedos.

I applied the same reasoning/arugments on DD torpedos to show, that this is an irrelevant point. Because of a "mechanic" I can excuse mistakes.

 

1 hour ago, togMOR said:

If you are timing it right you have a good chance to avoid even all destroyer torps but not sub torps since due to the homing mechanics they will even chase you (up to a certain point of course) and hit you regardless.

You can avoide 100% of the sub torpedos as well, as I showed in the screenshots.
 

My experience is, that

BB can more easily avoide them - in worst case DCP

Cruisers struggle the most - they have shorter CD on DCP, can use them more often against torpedo approaches and they are faster to get out of the danger zone

DDs are mediocre - very fast, very short dcp

Just based on my observation. Cruisers just should save their DCP, the fires on a crusiers are not that bad and can be healed.

 

My Torpedo hit rate with all the submarines are around 21%. So 79% of the torpedos were missing.

 

So, they are avoidable in many different ways, and back to the topic: We can't compare scenarios, where in one example someone goes with the best case and in the other example with the worst case. That are not the same conditions.

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I do something -> less hits, but it's the mechanics fault

If this were true, you'd be right. But you cannot angle against a sub that has pinged you. 

And no, using a consumable that you need for repairing floods and fires is not "taking action". 

[Pikkozoikum]

53 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

But you cannot angle against a sub that has pinged you. 

Depends on what you mean with angle. You can't use "armor" against torpedos, so they bounce off. That is a general rule against torpedos. Though Torpedos are effected by Torpedo belts.

But why are we talking about angleing? Aganinst torpedos, you use maneveurs. Maneuvers make the ping hitting harder, I use that a lot in a SS vs SS fight. But also you can dodge torpedos,  though it depends on the ship

 

53 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And no, using a consumable that you need for repairing floods and fires is not "taking action". 

Why is a potential single fire or two fires on a DD or cruiser more important than avoiding 100% of the DMG of a submarine? Explain

In case of BBs, you can actively dodge. As shown multiple times.

(side note, you can also clear the pings, while a fire is on you, double effect)

 

To make it more clear.

You can use DCP to counter 100% dmg of an enemy ship

You can use DCP to counter fires of an enemy ship

 

Sounds for me like an overpowered tool :P

[togMOR]

Vor 13 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Just based on my observation. Cruisers just should save their DCP, the fires on a crusiers are not that bad and can be healed.

Seriously?

Healing for regular cruiser is available for tier 9-10 only (with the exception of regular british cruiser) and the odd T6 premium and a handful of T8 premium ships.

 

Vor 23 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

My experience is, that

BB can more easily avoide them - in worst case DCP

Cruisers struggle the most - they have shorter CD on DCP, can use them more often against torpedo approaches and they are faster to get out of the danger zone

DDs are mediocre - very fast, very short dcp

My perception might be flawed, but homing works apparently much more agile or "agressive" on cruiser and destroyer than on battleships.

[Pikkozoikum]

10 minutes ago, togMOR said:

Seriously?

Healing for regular cruiser is available for tier 9-10 only (with the exception of regular british cruiser) and the odd T6 premium and a handful of T8 premium ships.

If that is your only worry, then the point still stands.

 

-Be aware of the position of the submarine

-Avoide the submarine (T6 and T8 are pretty slow, espeically submerged), like you would avoide DDs

-You get pinged, expect torpedos, do evasive maneuvers, out run them

-Use DCP. In case of cruisers, the cooldown should be enough to avoide all torpedo attack, as long the Sub is not single shooting the torps

-In case of single shooting, the sub has to apply way more often the ping. Maneuvers and moving away would dodge following torpedos.

 

There is a lot, what can be done. But it can also fail, since nobody plays perfect.

 

13 minutes ago, togMOR said:

My perception might be flawed, but homing works apparently much more agile or "agressive" on cruiser and destroyer than on battleships.

That's what I wrote, but cruisers and DDs also have shorter CD on DCP and they are faster, so they can leave the danger zone easier, than a BB.

 

Just think about it:

• Homing torpedos get anounced by pings
• The direction of the ping is shown
• The detection range is around 2100 and 2400 m
• The behavior of Homing is 100% clear (they will home, and curve towards you)

 

There are tons of information and no surprise attacks (what we actually would expect from a submarine)

 

• And after all that, it can be countered in many ways.
• And then the higher damage comes only, if it hits the cita.

 

There are so many conditions. At some point a submarine needs to be able to hit, otherwise it will do 0 dmg.

It's about to play around these conditions

[togMOR]

Vor 14 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

If that is your only worry, then the point still stands.

Still, it is a very valid point in terms of possible counterplay.

 

Vor 26 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

The behavior of Homing is 100% clear (they will home, and curve towards you)

Homing or "curving" yes, but not chasing the target and turning like Professor Fates torpedo of doom in pursuit of Tony Curtis ...

 

Vor 19 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

At some point a submarine needs to be able to hit, otherwise it will do 0 dmg.

I fully agree.

But if this can be achieved in most cases only by applying "mechanics" then the base design for the class remains rather questionable in my book.