General Submarines related discussions

[Dutchy_2019]

Just had a Co-op match, with screen shot evidence of what I mean:

 

• I was the ONLY one to spawn across A-cap (which means there will only a single ship opposite of me) - image 1; TIME ENTERING CAP: 18:34
• Second image shows me after killing the single enemy DD opposing me (another Friesland). Looking at the minimap, I killed fought and killed the Friesland when WEST of the wreck (in the screenshot I am already East). Note also the position of the known enemy ship positions - the closest ship for me to 'shoot at' is in C-cap: 25km away! This is at 17:30
• Third screenshot: my position just before the final ship - a submarine - was killed. The last surface ship to be killed was the Republique - when I was STILL 15km away! This is at17:00. It took them another 29 seconds to kill the last enemy ship.

NET RESULT: Of a game that lasted 5 minutes and 29 seconds I spent at best 45 seconds doing something. The rest of the time was a pure waste. And I knew the moment I got into the match and saw the positions, this would be the case. So yeah, I spent 5 minutes knowing that I would do absolutely nothing, and realistically could only expect to kill a DD at best. It is this kind of experience that would (and eventually WILL) make me go AFK after shooting the DD.

 

What you see here (definitely health pool / team composition wise) is a VERY COMMON occurrence since subs have been introduced. This also means a massive reduction in health pool compared to what is normal (I would argue close to 50%). It makes me feel as if I am wasting my time. More than two BBs in a Co-op game seems to have become an extreme rarity these days, at least for me. A have the feeling that in this patch I have seen MORE no BB games in 3 weeks than in all the time before, since starting to play the game, combined (so 20+ months by now). Before it was normal to have 3 or 4 BBs in a game. I now have the feeling that has been less than 10% of the Co-op games I have played this patch. You have always had the issue of spawning on the 'wrong side' of the map making putting up massive damage numbers difficult, but that usually could be mitigated somewhat by your own movements, and it never was this bad.

 

MIND YOU:

 

The max damage I could get this game: 17600

I average OVER 60000 HP damage in Friesland in a little over 200 Co-op games. 

 

I play this game to relax and unwind. Especially when I want to play the game in relaxation mode (like when I am tired after a long day of work) I play Co-op rather than Randoms, simply because a tired me will have no fun, and will be detrimental to the team (due to messing up more frequently). The kind of thing that is happening in Co-op thanks to the introduction of subs is taking away a WHOLE LOT OF FUN!

 

TO ME THERE IS ONLY ONE VIABLE SOLUTION IF YOU WANT TO KEEP SUBS IN CO-OP AND YOU WANT TO KEEP CO-OP PLAYERS MOTIVATED: A MINIMUM of 9 surface ships, (including 2 or more BBs) and if there are subs, let them fill slot 10-12.

 

 

And as an illustration, an Ocean match screenshot from earlier this week (at the bottom), OCEAn

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, nX79 said:

aha.....and they give me citadel torp hits?

 

 

If you have bad luck or misplayed, yes.

 

If you are aware of the submarine (pings mostly tell you the direction) and the enemy positions, you should be able to avoide a submarine. If you are afraid of that dmg, you should run away and  shoot the enemy on ~12km distance to the submarine.

DCP only, if torpedos really are about to hit the citadel.

But in first place you should try to dodge the torpedos with the right maneuver

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

TO ME THERE IS ONLY ONE VIABLE SOLUTION IF YOU WANT TO KEEP SUBS IN CO-OP AND YOU WANT TO KEEP CO-OP PLAYERS MOTIVATED: A MINIMUM of 9 surface ships, (including 2 or more BBs) and if there are subs, let them fill slot 10-12.

Would say to add more bots vs less players is good idea. Though not because of your example there, you are on the west side of the map and want kill a target on the east side. In a DD with not much range. It's obvious, that you can't reach them^^

The only difference with surface bot ship would be, that they suicide faster.

[Dutchy_2019]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Would say to add more bots vs less players is good idea. Though not because of your example there, you are on the west side of the map and want kill a target on the east side. In a DD with not much range. It's obvious, that you can't reach them^^

The only difference with surface bot ship would be, that they suicide faster.

 

If you actually read my post: I only had a realistic chance FROM THE VERY START of killing a single DD at the most, due to team composition and spawn point. 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

If you actually read my post: I only had a realistic chance FROM THE VERY START of killing a single DD at the most, due to team composition and spawn point. 

And you couldn't move to the center from the beginning?

[SodaBubbles]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And you couldn't move to the center from the beginning?

By the time he got there, the center ships would all be dead.

[nX79]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you have bad luck or misplayed, yes.

 

If you are aware of the submarine (pings mostly tell you the direction) and the enemy positions, you should be able to avoide a submarine. If you are afraid of that dmg, you should run away and  shoot the enemy on ~12km distance to the submarine.

DCP only, if torpedos really are about to hit the citadel.

But in first place you should try to dodge the torpedos with the right maneuver

 

 

Are you serious ?  Other ships than subs give you citadel torp hits? This is total nonsense.

 

Ah, run away...if this is the future meta...good night WoWs.

 

Not sure if I can take you serious. 

[Dutchy_2019]

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And you couldn't move to the center from the beginning?

 

By the time I would have gotten there, the rest of the enemy ships would have been killed before I would have had a chance to shoot at them anyway, assuming the other Co-op players are only halfway decent. My total damage would probably have been even less. At least that would be a safe assumption based on what happens in 90% of the 5000+ Co-op games I have played so far over 2 servers. Second, if I had moved closer to center (but west of islands) it would have made little difference to the outcome for me (positively), with only the added risk of becoming the target of the bot cruisers - and having to fight without smoke, as I would have to do the spotting for A-cap myself.

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

By the time I would have gotten there, the rest of the enemy ships would have been killed before I would have had a chance to shoot at them anyway, assuming the other Co-op players are only halfway decent. My total damage would probably have been even less. At least that would be a safe assumption based on what happens in 90% of the 5000+ Co-op games I have played so far over 2 servers. Second, if I had moved closer to center (but west of islands) it would have made little difference to the outcome for me (positively), with only the added risk of becoming the target of the bot cruisers - and having to fight without smoke, as I would have to do the spotting for A-cap myself.

Some ship types don't suit co-op matches. I find CVs aren't much fun either -  spawn locations tend to mean facing massed AA, and the class being DOT based means that you can't output as much spike damage as other classes. Am I going to be able to compete with players bringing TRB DDs, 18 inch BB guns which reach across the entire map? Nah. Subs have the same problems - limited reach, limited movement, low damage output. If the spawn RNG decrees that you're behind a faster ship or on a flank with one/two enemies, prepare for a boring game in which you'll be lucky to get more than one or two salvos away. People keep telling me, for example, that the Tier X Balao sub is overpowered. I can't tell, because at Tier X there is so much high-speed one shotting going there are barely enemies to shoot at by the time you've got into range. 

[Hugh_Ruka]

5 hours ago, nX79 said:

Are you serious ?  Other ships than subs give you citadel torp hits? This is total nonsense.

 

Ah, run away...if this is the future meta...good night WoWs.

 

Not sure if I can take you serious. 

regular torpedoes hitting the citadel area count as citadel damage anyway. just there is no ribbon for that ... you can see that on the healing amount you have left after torp hits amidships ... that there is a citadel ribbon on the submarine torpedoes is just a cosmetic thing that only confirms you have hit while double-ping was in effect. nothing more nothing less.

[Malim0o]

Il y a 30 minutes, Hugh_Ruka a dit :

regular torpedoes hitting the citadel area count as citadel damage anyway. just there is no ribbon for that ... you can see that on the healing amount you have left after torp hits amidships ... that there is a citadel ribbon on the submarine torpedoes is just a cosmetic thing that only confirms you have hit while double-ping was in effect. nothing more nothing less.

Lool on every BB and most cruiser (all ?) cit is protected by a torpedo belt so hitting the cit with a "regular torpedo" deal less dmg than a torp hit in the bow .

So no dd, dont cit with their torpedo

[Dutchy_2019]

3 hours ago, invicta2012 said:

Some ship types don't suit co-op matches. I find CVs aren't much fun either -  spawn locations tend to mean facing massed AA, and the class being DOT based means that you can't output as much spike damage as other classes. Am I going to be able to compete with players bringing TRB DDs, 18 inch BB guns which reach across the entire map? Nah. Subs have the same problems - limited reach, limited movement, low damage output. If the spawn RNG decrees that you're behind a faster ship or on a flank with one/two enemies, prepare for a boring game in which you'll be lucky to get more than one or two salvos away. People keep telling me, for example, that the Tier X Balao sub is overpowered. I can't tell, because at Tier X there is so much high-speed one shotting going there are barely enemies to shoot at by the time you've got into range. 

 

Sure, some ship types do not suit (and yeah, CV would be one of them)

 

But DDs (including Friesland) NEVER had that problem in such a way as they now have since the subs came in. Yeah, I have had the occasional 'spawned on the wrong side of the map, bots moved away' stinker of a game, but NOTHING close to consistently as bad as before. As I said in my first post: my average in Friesland is over 60k in Co-op (over 200 games), so I have at least some idea how to use her in Co-op. But with the inclusion of bots there are FEWER surface ships, the general HP pool is also a lot lower (considering the classes people bring).

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, Malim0o said:

Lool on every BB and most cruiser (all ?) cit is protected by a torpedo belt so hitting the cit with a "regular torpedo" deal less dmg than a torp hit in the bow .

So no dd, dont cit with their torpedo

Well ... go into training room with a buddy in his cruiser or BB, hit him in the bow and compare damage to healing potential, then do the same with citadel area ... I think you'll be surprised. Torpedo hits f.e. are one of the major tools how to lower Conquerors healing potential ... why do you think that is ?

 

Torpedo protection is just a flat % damage reduction, nothing more when it comes to torpedoes ....

[Malim0o]

Il y a 34 minutes, Hugh_Ruka a dit :

Well ... go into training room with a buddy in his cruiser or BB, hit him in the bow and compare damage to healing potential, then do the same with citadel area ... I think you'll be surprised. Torpedo hits f.e. are one of the major tools how to lower Conquerors healing potential ... why do you think that is ?

 

Torpedo protection is just a flat % damage reduction, nothing more when it comes to torpedoes ....

Just .... 

Compartement and virtual hull you know ? No ? Hf on youtube with "how it's work"

And here we talk about alpha dmg , not healing potential.

Try to explain me how a cit hit (max dmg potential) deal less alpha dmg than a no satured bow hit ?

 

Edit: torpedo act like he shell, so yeah you can Splash dmg on the cit and ofc your recovered less hp if you repaired than a bow hit but no you cant make a direct cita hit...

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 hour ago, Malim0o said:

Just .... 

Compartement and virtual hull you know ? No ? Hf on youtube with "how it's work"

And here we talk about alpha dmg , not healing potential.

Try to explain me how a cit hit (max dmg potential) deal less alpha dmg than a no satured bow hit ?

 

Edit: torpedo act like he shell, so yeah you can Splash dmg on the cit and ofc your recovered less hp if you repaired than a bow hit but no you cant make a direct cita hit...

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Torpedoes

Quote

Damage

Every torpedo has 2 types of damage, splash and alpha. The listed damage in the port is calculated with "alpha / 3 + splash". Splash can also hurt the neighboring sector such as superstructure, casemate and so on.

1. Torpedo hits into bow/stern -- deals 16.5% of alpha and splash damage to "entire hull" and "bow/stern" respectively.
2. Torpedo hits into citadel -- reduced damage. Coefficient can be found here. Alpha damage of torpedo is multiplied by a value on the table. Torpedo Protection also decreases the chance of flooding.
3. Torpedo hits the mid-section of a destroyer -- reduced damage. 33% of alpha damage.

 

[Malim0o]

Il y a 42 minutes, Hugh_Ruka a dit :

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Torpedoes

 

So i'm sur you can provide a screen with max torpedo dmg on a bb cit ? Right ?

[Malim0o]

so... some time to waste

 

here my minotaur torp dmg

 

Spoiler

 

Now some test ....

"Damage

Every torpedo has 2 types of damage, splash and alpha. The listed damage in the port is calculated with "alpha / 3 + splash". Splash can also hurt the neighboring sector such as superstructure, casemate and so on.

Torpedo hits into bow/stern -- deals 16.5% of alpha and splash damage to "entire hull" and "bow/stern" respectively.

Torpedo hits into citadel -- reduced damage. Coefficient can be found here. Alpha damage of torpedo is multiplied by a value on the table. Torpedo Protection also decreases the chance of flooding."

 

Spoiler

so....

Monty 11641/19282 = 60.4% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 37%) (+3% where ?)

Yamato 8461/19282 = 44% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 55%) (1% ?)

Repu 11496/19282 = 59.6% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 37%) (3% ?)

Conqu 13262/19282 = 68.8% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 28%) (3% ?)

GK 13767/19282 = 71.4% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 25%) (4% ?)

 

"Torpedo hits into citadel " NO ,so ofc no max dmg on the cit

"Alpha damage of torpedo is multiplied by a value on the table" ??????????

 

 

 

 

"Torpedo hits the mid-section of a destroyer -- reduced damage. 33% of alpha damage."

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

some on the dd mid section 17982 dmg (17982/19282= 93.26% max dmg) sooooooo, "reduced damage. 33% of alpha damage."

 

 

But yeah ofc i dont rly understand the torp dmg in this test

We have some sneaky protection to add (more torp protec ?) why dd take "only" 93.26% of max dmg in the mid section  ? idk.

[Hugh_Ruka]

2 hours ago, Malim0o said:

so... some time to waste

 

here my minotaur torp dmg

 

  Hide contents

 

Now some test ....

"Damage

Every torpedo has 2 types of damage, splash and alpha. The listed damage in the port is calculated with "alpha / 3 + splash". Splash can also hurt the neighboring sector such as superstructure, casemate and so on.

Torpedo hits into bow/stern -- deals 16.5% of alpha and splash damage to "entire hull" and "bow/stern" respectively.

Torpedo hits into citadel -- reduced damage. Coefficient can be found here. Alpha damage of torpedo is multiplied by a value on the table. Torpedo Protection also decreases the chance of flooding."

 

  Reveal hidden contents

so....

Monty 11641/19282 = 60.4% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 37%) (+3% where ?)

Yamato 8461/19282 = 44% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 55%) (1% ?)

Repu 11496/19282 = 59.6% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 37%) (3% ?)

Conqu 13262/19282 = 68.8% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 28%) (3% ?)

GK 13767/19282 = 71.4% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 25%) (4% ?)

 

"Torpedo hits into citadel " NO ,so ofc no max dmg on the cit

"Alpha damage of torpedo is multiplied by a value on the table" ??????????

 

 

 

 

"Torpedo hits the mid-section of a destroyer -- reduced damage. 33% of alpha damage."

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

some on the dd mid section 17982 dmg (17982/19282= 93.26% max dmg) sooooooo, "reduced damage. 33% of alpha damage."

 

 

But yeah ofc i dont rly understand the torp dmg in this test

We have some sneaky protection to add (more torp protec ?) why dd take "only" 93.26% of max dmg in the mid section  ? idk.

so much work and you wasted the time and effort ... but if you don't want to understand I cannot force you ...

[Malim0o]

Il y a 7 minutes, Hugh_Ruka a dit :

so much work and you wasted the time and effort ... but if you don't want to understand I cannot force you ...

Ha ... , ok

[The_Stigs_wet_cousin]

Submarines are crap. Nobody wants or wanted them. The end.

[loki51]

2 words. Boring and annoying.

[Pikkozoikum]

15 hours ago, Malim0o said:

so... some time to waste

 

here my minotaur torp dmg

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Now some test ....

"Damage

Every torpedo has 2 types of damage, splash and alpha. The listed damage in the port is calculated with "alpha / 3 + splash". Splash can also hurt the neighboring sector such as superstructure, casemate and so on.

Torpedo hits into bow/stern -- deals 16.5% of alpha and splash damage to "entire hull" and "bow/stern" respectively.

Torpedo hits into citadel -- reduced damage. Coefficient can be found here. Alpha damage of torpedo is multiplied by a value on the table. Torpedo Protection also decreases the chance of flooding."

 

  Reveal hidden contents

so....

Monty 11641/19282 = 60.4% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 37%) (+3% where ?)

Yamato 8461/19282 = 44% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 55%) (1% ?)

Repu 11496/19282 = 59.6% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 37%) (3% ?)

Conqu 13262/19282 = 68.8% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 28%) (3% ?)

GK 13767/19282 = 71.4% max torpedo dmg (torpedo belt 25%) (4% ?)

 

"Torpedo hits into citadel " NO ,so ofc no max dmg on the cit

"Alpha damage of torpedo is multiplied by a value on the table" ??????????

 

 

 

 

"Torpedo hits the mid-section of a destroyer -- reduced damage. 33% of alpha damage."

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

some on the dd mid section 17982 dmg (17982/19282= 93.26% max dmg) sooooooo, "reduced damage. 33% of alpha damage."

 

 

But yeah ofc i dont rly understand the torp dmg in this test

We have some sneaky protection to add (more torp protec ?) why dd take "only" 93.26% of max dmg in the mid section  ? idk.

Wait, that's how torpedos work. I always thought they just du 100% dmg on the section and then get reduced by protection or saturation xD

 

But the "flood coefficient" is not the damage reduction (Torpedo protection)? The flood coefficient is calculated with the torpedo protection. Probably only a mistake in the writing?

The 1-4% less dmg could be saturation

 

ps.: reading the article rn

pps.: where can I see the alpha and splash dmg, is that somewhere shown?

 

23 hours ago, Malim0o said:

Lool on every BB and most cruiser (all ?) cit is protected by a torpedo belt so hitting the cit with a "regular torpedo" deal less dmg than a torp hit in the bow .

So no dd, dont cit with their torpedo

 

The thing is, they hit the citadel, but they don't have a damage effect like shells. A citadel hit can be only healed by 10%, but is mostly protected by Torpedobelts. (At least that was my understanding yet)

 

 

23 hours ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

regular torpedoes hitting the citadel area count as citadel damage anyway. just there is no ribbon for that ... you can see that on the healing amount you have left after torp hits amidships ... that there is a citadel ribbon on the submarine torpedoes is just a cosmetic thing that only confirms you have hit while double-ping was in effect. nothing more nothing less.

It's not only cosmetic. Submarine torpedos get a damage boost against citadels, when double pinged. Sub torps do damage somewhere around 7-8k. If you hit the citadell with double ping, they can do 10k-12k dmg

 

 

 

[Hugh_Ruka]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's not only cosmetic. Submarine torpedos get a damage boost against citadels, when double pinged. Sub torps do damage somewhere around 7-8k. If you hit the citadell with double ping, they can do 10k-12k dmg

 

Ok, so what would be the change if they invented a new ribbon for double pinged sub torp hits and it would do citadel damage as the regular torpedoes ?

 

NONE !! And everybody would be happy ... and in the end all ship/boat launched torpedoes would do citadel damage in some cases ....

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, Hugh_Ruka said:

Ok, so what would be the change if they invented a new ribbon for double pinged sub torp hits and it would do citadel damage as the regular torpedoes ?

 

NONE !! And everybody would be happy ... and in the end all ship/boat launched torpedoes would do citadel damage in some cases ....

I actually don't care, how it looks like. Even if we remove the ribbon, doesn't matter. But the mechanic exists for submarines. The ribbon itself (like every visual indicator) is of course only "cosmetic", but it's bound on a mechanic, that submarines do additional damage against citas

[Pikkozoikum]

On 9/2/2021 at 6:45 AM, nX79 said:

Are you serious ?  Other ships than subs give you citadel torp hits? This is total nonsense.

 

Ah, run away...if this is the future meta...good night WoWs.

 

Not sure if I can take you serious. 

Not sure, what you mean, but the torps of submarines work different.

Normal torpedos tend to do more damage, but often get reduced by Torpedobelt and saturation

Submarine torpedos are the other way around, they do low damage, until they double ping and hit the cita. but that can be countered

 

Though every ship can hit the citadel, only subs get a damage boost with double pings, in return this effect can be countered. I see the balance there.

 

You can have something consistent, something that does always 10k dmg, or something that is inconsistent, which does 15k then 5k. (just as an example)

Both has advantages and disadvantages.