General Submarines related discussions

[Pikkozoikum]

14 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Not a fan of the spotting mechanic with subs either:

 

Just about everybody playing the game - and among them many CV mains - consider the spotting mechanic with aircraft (and fighters) for CVs completely broken. Now with subs it is even worse. The ONLY hope you have when playing a DD and you go sub-hunting is that all the enemy ships are either complete idiots or blocked by islands. Otherwise the DD is gone before he/she has killed the ship. Even more so as often it is completely impossible to kill the enemy sub with a full load of depth charges.

 

Solution:

 

CVs and subs UNDERNEATH THE SURFACE do no longer spot for the team, but spot on the minimap. If a sub is on the surface, him spotting for the team might be considered.

Submarine spotting is at Periscope depth or below quite bad, though

 

Edit: Imagine people down voting facts :3

[achilles999666]

FWIW Wargaming, I've been trying out the submarines and I really like the concept and how they are playing. 

 

Made a forum account so I could post this. It probably still needs some tinkering/refining but I'm definitely looking forward to subs being a part of the game. 

 

I know it's not popular with a large amount of the serious WOWs players but I'm enjoying them. Keep up the good work. 

[mariouus]

So after trying it out in Ranked.

 

1.Ranked is completly wrong place do test them. Mutch higher pace than in Randoms, less players, fairly frontal and predictable tactics.

I am more or less certain - that this is not a "TEST" as such, but rather something WG just created do say "Hey we Tested it" when they push it into randoms. 

 

Wows Subs are combination of extreme boredom combined with boredom. There is not much you are doing. It was challenging first couple of battles - while learning what-is-what. But overally even CVs have more depth. And this is saying something.

 

Strong parts

1. Even with low speed (of low tier Subs) tactical mobility is decent - you can play it centrally like slow US BBs only with much more success - due not being spotted.

2. Due the great consilement - specially Air consilement - Caping is mutch-mutch easier than in DD

3.Very powerful armament. When decently positioned - achiving double-ping citadels is easy. Even when not - it is easier to do damage than in DD for example. Due the nature of the Ranked (and Coop) mostly you get bow on engagement, that are sub-par. But this is problem with testing enviroment. Probably down to the fact - that WG can show their Spreadsheet saying that Sub do not do all that much damage per hit.

4.Great passive spoting ability.

 

Bad parts

 

1.Poor Strategical mobility - meaning that most ships will overtake you and "eat into" your potential performance - or outright hamper it. Less of an issue in Randoms probably.

 

Consept issues.

 

1. Boring - you spend alot of time commuting - or passive spoting (spoting while not being endangered)

2. Very low effort "fighting". This pinging thing will get easy and old really fast.

3. No "action" part in the gameplay - most of the engagement is done in a enviroment where there is no danger do you. Submarine is essentially a class where you should avoid any action.

4. Is a concept designed do be most effective against "mobile" gameplay and least effective against camping. If enemy is trying do push in, it is extremly easy to double-ping.

5. Extreme performance Cap between Good and Bad player. In other classes you usually can get something out of the bad players (some spoting, distraction). You do not get any from bad Sub players. Difference is even higher than in CVs - bad Sub player will just die quickly. While Good Sub player can and will be extremly influencal.

 

Sub is basically extremly easy do learn and use class. That counters any sort of Active gameplay. Due the fact that it is designed do avoid action, it is boring do play. It is also extremly simplistic and one trick-class.

Overally it is a Class designed specially for New players - there is not mutch do learn. At the same time - its potential do retain players is rather low. Because it is basically a full damage farming class (yes you can also spot (and Cap), but due the design, it is more of a Passive ability).There is no flexibility. This gets boring really fast. It is Basically a Monument for dumbing down - a CV minus Map control.

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

3 hours ago, achilles999666 said:

FWIW Wargaming, I've been trying out the submarines and I really like the concept and how they are playing. 

 

Made a forum account so I could post this. It probably still needs some tinkering/refining but I'm definitely looking forward to subs being a part of the game. 

 

I know it's not popular with a large amount of the serious WOWs players but I'm enjoying them. Keep up the good work. 

 

There are some more threads about submarines in which you haven't copypasta'd this text yet... just trying to be helpful... :)

[Pikkozoikum]

Super funny SS interaction

• I was in Ise on right flank and it was late game, asked, where the never spotted sub was
• Somone pings on enemy side behind island on left flank
• I fly to that spot on the other side, spot the SS surfaced and hit it with 1 torpedo
• After a while the Warspites kills the submarine and writes "xD"
• I asked, if that was a blind drop, because the sub was not spotted a while ago. He said yes
• BB spots submarine with planes and then another bb does a blind drop by minimap prediction xD

[Dutchy_2019]

 

Can someone explain to me how 9 depth charge drop hits are NOT sufficient to kill a Subramine that started out with 6700 HP health at about 20-30 meters of depth?

 

You basically need TWO DD runs to get a submarine killed. Which means that if you have a capable enemy, the DD is dead, and the submarine lives. Frankly, idiotic.

[AndyHill]

2 hours ago, mariouus said:

I am more or less certain - that this is not a "TEST" as such, but rather something WG just created do say "Hey we Tested it" when they push it into randoms. 

Well yes, this much is obvious by now, that's how WG do all of their testing. They have check boxes for alpha, beta, internal, public and final testing, but they are basically just meaningless rituals, because the release date has been decided beforehand and test results have 0 effect on anything. For example to an actually professional game developer the need for massive changes in speed and damage of sub torps between the final test and release would have been a clear indicator of a failed test and the need to go back a step or two to re-evaluate. At later stages you wouldn't even change two parameters at once, because that makes evaluating the results very difficult and even the need to do so just before release is pretty much unthinkable.

 

What basically happened was developers taking a desperate shot in the dark to maybe possibly hopefully make something so far unworkable somehow work. And then released it. Even if subs were now perfect and the best thing ever, the developers couldn't possibly know it without testing and WG's development process would still be about as unprofessional as a surgeon not washing his hands before an operation. That's not even really a matter of opinion, no matter what you might think about submarines themselves.

[Gvozdika]

1 hour ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Can someone explain to me how 9 depth charge drop hits are NOT sufficient to kill a Subramine that started out with 6700 HP health at about 20-30 meters of depth?

 

You basically need TWO DD runs to get a submarine killed. Which means that if you have a capable enemy, the DD is dead, and the submarine lives. Frankly, idiotic.

Depending on the pattern of drops - the sub might only be on the very edge of the damage radius. Possibly enough to knock a few hitpoints off and register as a 'hit ribbon' but not doing that much damage.

 

Given the shonky programming that WG is known for - I wouldn't be surprised if there were issues in hit registration. Especially when you consider that 'splash damage' has until now been limited to direct HE shell hits rather than 'area of effect damage' with variable levels of HP removed depending on the proximity of the explosion to a ship model. 

[Dutchy_2019]

4 minutes ago, Gvozdika said:

Depending on the pattern of drops - the sub might only be on the very edge of the damage radius. Possibly enough to knock a few hitpoints off and register as a 'hit ribbon' but not doing that much damage.

 

Given the shonky programming that WG is known for - I wouldn't be surprised if there were issues in hit registration. Especially when you consider that 'splash damage' has until now been limited to direct HE shell hits rather than 'area of effect damage' with variable levels of HP removed depending on the proximity of the explosion to a ship model. 

 

Which basically means that unless you get a perfect drop off - subs need AT LEAST two passes by a DD; which means that if the enemy team pays any attention, subs are unkillable until the very end of the game (since the DD is dead WAY before he can get a 2nd pass off).

 

[Gvozdika]

3 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Which basically means that unless you get a perfect drop off - subs need AT LEAST two passes by a DD; which means that if the enemy team pays any attention, subs are unkillable until the very end of the game (since the DD is dead WAY before he can get a 2nd pass off).

 

British DDs do a metric tonne of damage from each of their charges (3k plus?) - I've never had to do more than one pass with the Cossack, Lightning or Daring on a sub. Other nations DDs seem to be a lot less consistent like you say.

[Hopeless_Guppy]

Does WG actually use this thread as 'valuable feedback?' For all the criticism WG gets, I will say this, if only their top management were as good as the art department for the modelling of the subs, just as with all other ships is second to none detail wise.

Also if WG are listening, it would be very nice to have a periscope depth function, not so keen on the fact then when you dive you seem to, or I seem to dive right to the maximum depth.

[Xinyon]

Tbh i positively disappointed in subs. They are fun/tactial to play (at least for me)  and there are multiple tactics you can use against them.

Not like these disgusting carriers that just makes me want to quit the game instantly how sh2t and unbalanced they are

 

 

EDIT: also on ranked the possibilities the test really feels limited, random battle would be a better place for it. 

[Camperdown]

16 hours ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

Does WG actually use this thread as 'valuable feedback?' For all the criticism WG gets, I will say this, if only their top management were as good as the art department for the modelling of the subs, just as with all other ships is second to none detail wise.

Also if WG are listening, it would be very nice to have a periscope depth function, not so keen on the fact then when you dive you seem to, or I seem to dive right to the maximum depth.

The only thing WG is looking for is to rip out your eyes and piss in your skull. They begin their day brainstorming how they can show their players the finger this day.

[General_Alexus]

The feedback threat is very hard to read because of all the spamm (aka pointless discussions), but I hope WG is reading still.

As far as I overlooked it (could be wrong) it was not mentioned yet.

 

WE NEED some adition to the minimap, I dont know how difficult it is to add but there is no indication at all what the waterdepth is before you start diving. I even got stuck a few times because of this, died a couple of times as well because I was not able to dive out of hydro or even radar detection.

 

Doing 3d on a 2d map could is difficult, I dont know if adding a colorbar is enough to be easy to understand. Having the ability to predict waterdepth before you enter the area would be nice, but at least

you could show the current waterdepth below your ships location on the HUD, maybe next to the dive-time indicator.

 

Overall I like that depth is changing , sometimes even not allowing you to go dark (an aspect that is forgotten by many who complain about subs beeing OP and whatnot), so if you are able to change the minimaps to show shallow spots, make them availiable to all players, so that they know spots where they could trap a sub (or escape from it if the sub is not willing to enter shallow areas). The mechanic of the new 3d maps should not be a question of luck/chance, or remembering every squaremeter of all maps.

[Pikkozoikum]

10 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

The feedback threat is very hard to read because of all the spamm (aka pointless discussions), but I hope WG is reading still.

As far as I overlooked it (could be wrong) it was not mentioned yet.

 

WE NEED some adition to the minimap, I dont know how difficult it is to add but there is no indication at all what the waterdepth is before you start diving. I even got stuck a few times because of this, died a couple of times as well because I was not able to dive out of hydro or even radar detection.

 

Doing 3d on a 2d map could is difficult, I dont know if adding a colorbar is enough to be easy to understand. Having the ability to predict waterdepth before you enter the area would be nice, but at least

you could show the current waterdepth below your ships location on the HUD, maybe next to the dive-time indicator.

 

Overall I like that depth is changing , sometimes even not allowing you to go dark (an aspect that is forgotten by many who complain about subs beeing OP and whatnot), so if you are able to change the minimaps to show shallow spots, make them availiable to all players, so that they know spots where they could trap a sub (or escape from it if the sub is not willing to enter shallow areas). The mechanic of the new 3d maps should not be a question of luck/chance, or remembering every squaremeter of all maps.

Water depth lines would be cool

 

[General_Alexus]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Water depth lines would be cool

 

Cool for sure (I know similar maps from GIS-software), but especially if we want thouse for everybody it needs to be more simple than that.

The clutter together with important marks on the minimap (caps, line of sight, range, spotting/range distances,...) is too much for what is an acard-game (never forget that, even with all the "attention" to realism.

[koliber_1984]

After my 13 games in current Sprint 1, I met one (!) good enemy submarine player, who was really effective in dealling dmg. Majority of captains has no clue how to operate them effectively, I hope it will stay that way

[JohnMac79]

1 hour ago, koliber_1984 said:

Majority of captains has no clue how to operate them effectively, I hope it will stay that way

Which means they will dumb them down further like they did with CV. They want to sell as many shiny premium subs as possible, so they absolutely *must* be potato friendly. Point, click, destroy, profit.

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

Cool for sure (I know similar maps from GIS-software), but especially if we want thouse for everybody it needs to be more simple than that.

The clutter together with important marks on the minimap (caps, line of sight, range, spotting/range distances,...) is too much for what is an acard-game (never forget that, even with all the "attention" to realism.

@Pikkozoikum, too: 

How about this, just blue/darker blue.

 

[General_Alexus]

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

@Pikkozoikum, too: 

How about this, just blue/darker blue.

 

Yes this one looks nice, as I said I would be interested how different colormaps would work together with transparent minimap. If it does not work with the minimap, they could at least show it with the big topdown map you see when pressing "M".

[Deckeru_Maiku]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

@Pikkozoikum, too: 

How about this, just blue/darker blue....

 

As long as that minimap version would be OPTIONAL they could do whatever they want with it...

[De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit]

So after having played in bronze ranked for the first time since subs have been added, my feedback:

 

1) Observation: cruisers are not effective against submarines, especially during early- and midgame. Basically your best play is to straight out ignore the submarines during those stages of the game. There might be a window of opportunity to hunt subs late game. Other than that, cruisers are no threat to subs whatsoever. You'll get devstruck if you try. 

 

2) The distinction between periscope depth and operating depth is very slim, especially when it comes to spotting. The submarine detects enemy ships at the same range for both periscope and operating depth. This results in submarine captains to stay at operating depth, because there is no real penalty for staying at operating depth compared to periscope depth, except for less speed at the low- and mid tiers. As a consequence, submarines are immune to guns when they are actually spotted, which results in very stale and boring sub vs surface interactions. 

 

In my opinion, submarines should have less vision/spotting capacity at operating depth. My proposed change:

 

At operating depth, the submarine can no longer spot surface ships for himself, though it can still see surface ships spotted by teammates. For the submarine to spot enemy surface ships, it has to ascend to periscope depth. This change will result in submarine captains to operate at periscope depth more often, especially during 1v1s with battleships for example. When it does not have teammates who do the spotting for the sub, the sub is essentially blind at operating (and max) depth. Especially if the hydrophone is on cooldown as well. Also, with this proposal the german battleships will be more effective against submarines in a 1v1 as they will have long range hydro, combined with the fact that the submarine has to come up to periscope depth in order to hard spot the BB. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

Yes this one looks nice, as I said I would be interested how different colormaps would work together with transparent minimap. If it does not work with the minimap, they could at least show it with the big topdown map you see when pressing "M".

Something like the "island parking warning siren" could also be for subs, just working "downward". 

[Hopeless_Guppy]

21 hours ago, JohnMac79 said:

Which means they will dumb them down further like they did with CV. They want to sell as many shiny premium subs as possible, so they absolutely *must* be potato friendly. Point, click, destroy, profit.

Tried both subs and CV's in co op, to me CV's are even worse to play, actually thinking of selling them now due how they have butchered the rockets, subs tried in ranked, did not survive one single game, I doubt I will be buying a sub just to use in co op.

Whilst I like the sub gameplay, (especially if I manage to sink anther sub) I cannot see them being a big hit, no where near as nimble as a DD, unable to go dark as to avoid Depth charges, and at periscope depth they should be recharging their depth time, not using it up, and I don't recall capping whilst submerged.

Still I guess in time the novelty of them for me will wear off.

[BLUB__BLUB]

22 hours ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

and I don't recall capping whilst submerged.

You can only cap when on surface. At least SOMETHING is working as intended... 

I think some stuff makes the subs not stronger, just "more troll".