General Submarines related discussions

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

Taper damage of with distance, make it from 33% of Raw-alpha at the surface (like now already) to 5% at 20m until 1% at 30m, maybe change the numbers around for calibre and explosive filler of the shells.

I agree that BBs need something to touch Subs, but it sould not be for free, like the DC-planes essentially are. Making guns able to hit subs (but removing free DC planes) means, that doging damage from a BB is directly substracted from the damage said BB could have done to a teammate if he had shoot another target. The current mechanic of DC.planes just askes for BB players to get double strikes, blapping Subs with a free consumabels not used for anything else and keeping guns loaded to deleate a CL/CA.

They CAN blap subs, or at least do damage to them - when subs are near enough to the surface. 

That's not the poiint though: subs can go deeper, and then still proceed to get damage from other ships. 

At least a CV usually loses some (replaceable) planes. Sub loses nothing. 

[Steel_duck_1]

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

wouldn't that be op? ^^

I mean, there must be a super damage reduction debuff on them, to make that work. Otherwise the BBs would just one-shot them all the time, unless they are not on maximum depth^^

You say this like it is a bad thing? 

[General_Alexus]

6 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

They CAN blap subs, or at least do damage to them - when subs are near enough to the surface. 

That's not the poiint though: subs can go deeper, and then still proceed to get damage from other ships. 

At least a CV usually loses some (replaceable) planes. Sub loses nothing. 

Read what I wrote earlier: Remove DC-planes of BBs and give High-Calibre HE the ability to to damage in OPERATING DEPTH (aka deeper down).

On the surface and 8m deep this damage is 30% of HE alpha already (aka thats why you get blaped) -> taper of this damage to 10%,5%,1% the further you do down (so that you dont get blappen but it is still dangerous to get spotted)

 

[Camperdown]

52 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

Read what I wrote earlier: Remove DC-planes of BBs and give High-Calibre HE the ability to to damage in OPERATING DEPTH (aka deeper down).

On the surface and 8m deep this damage is 30% of HE alpha already (aka thats why you get blaped) -> taper of this damage to 10%,5%,1% the further you do down (so that you dont get blappen but it is still dangerous to get spotted)

 

Let's not introduce a silly mechanism to counter a silly mechanism.

Why not give all BBs asw plane strikes?

[General_Alexus]

2 hours ago, Camperdown said:

Let's not introduce a silly mechanism to counter a silly mechanism.

Why not give all BBs asw plane strikes?

Because the planes are stupid (as argued by me and others in previous posts)

They are "free" (no cost or risk using them).

They are to quickly used, dont have any warning for the sub, more accurate than any other ASW, too much range (unspotted BBs dropping you out of nowhere is a common occurence)

They are to easyly stackable already forshaowing sub-instakills in random with 5BB/team.

 

It blatantly obvious in ranked atm, when BBs pose a bigger threat to Subs than DDs or CAs (stats will show I can only speak from personal experience not getting sunk by a DD once, but plenty of times by BB-planes

[Pikkozoikum]

10 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

So it's ok and not OP for submarines to do 30 knots underwater (also completely real btw) and have homing torpedos that ignore any armor the ship has and do straight up citadels (which don't need a damage reduction either), but god forbid a ship did something to your poor submarine that doesn't belong in here as it is currently... Can you be a little less biased maybe? Try at least?

Sounds like you are biased, too. I'm just more realistic, I look at all ships.

You mention some advantages of submarines, without considering the disadvantages, which is very One-sided just like:

 

Is a Ferrari not OP? They have so many horse power and speed?

Well, yes, that is maybe good, but they are expensive and not pratical in normal life, so maybe it's not good? ;)

or

Are BB not OP? They have massive ranges like 26km and huge Alpha-dmg salvos, they can oneshot any ship! (Lets just ignore the slow speed, reload, dispersion :3)

 

If you don't get the pro and contra right, then it's pretty obvious, that it looks like the side you chose.

 

But also you got a mistake. Armor doesn't get ignored, the damage gets raised, when hitting citadel with double ping active.

I personally think, that their speed migh be a few knots too fast overall. But that T10s have kinda same surface as dive speed is even realistic, the ratio is more or less same, unlike older submarines. If they are too fast and need balance, then it would proably happen in a same ratio. Like 28 knots surfaced and submerged.

Type 11 submarine had surfaced 15.3 knots (diesel), 17,9 knots (E-motor), 18 knots (both engines).

Type 11 submarine had submerged 16.5 knots (E-motor)

I would assume, that submarines move with diesel on surface to load the battery. So they are submerged actually faster, than surfaced. How is it in this game? Same. So it's

11 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

completely real

perspective of the ratio of surfaced/submerged speed.

 

11 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

but god forbid a ship did something to your poor submarine that doesn't belong in here as it is currently.

There is not only one direction. I'm just a bit more real. There should be ships with counters to submarines (Did I just said that? There should be ships, that do something to my poor submarine?), and some should not counter a submarine. It has 0 to do with "a ship did something to your poor submarine". It's the same like you would say. "Give all ships radar, oh, but god forbid a ships did something to your poor DD"

Ships without counters to DD have to work around that disadvantage. Them as Ships without counters to submarines.

 

And the citadel mechanic is actually something, that is not an advantage, it's a design. The alternate design is:

-Hard hitting torpedos, that do always full dmg and get only reduced functions (torpedo belt).

Instead we get more complex torpedos

-Low hitting torpedos, do increased damage with homing (single ping), if hitting citadel, if double ping is active.

 

You should know notice, while there is "Homing" and "increased damage" there are also 2x if. That's how you design and balance and not just. It's homing. Consider the conditions and disadvantages.

Normal torpedos like IJN Torps always have ~20k damage. No ping needed, no counter DCP, no hit on the citadel needed. the max damage will be applied on bow, side and stern. Only the torpedo belt and HP depletion will decrease the damage. But reductions will be applied on submarine torpedos as well.

 

If you want, we can also talk about, how homing can be a disadvantage, if you like.

 

I am "biased" to submarines and I want WG implemented SS well. That means not broken, not op, not up.

 

[Shirakami_Kon]

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Sounds like you are biased, too. I'm just more realistic, I look at all ships.

You mention some advantages of submarines, without considering the disadvantages, which is very One-sided just like:

 

Is a Ferrari not OP? They have so many horse power and speed?

Well, yes, that is maybe good, but they are expensive and not pratical in normal life, so maybe it's not good? ;)

or

Are BB not OP? They have massive ranges like 26km and huge Alpha-dmg salvos, they can oneshot any ship! (Lets just ignore the slow speed, reload, dispersion :3)

I'd like to understand like you how the disadvantages of a submarine in game compare to those of a Ferrari IRL and how this solves the problem the first ones are in the game. Maybe try to explain to me the submarine disadvantages in the game again? You can go at it like I'm 5, I won't get mad.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But also you got a mistake. Armor doesn't get ignored, the damage gets raised, when hitting citadel with double ping active.

Which doesn't happen because double ping apparently makes the torpedo belt protection of a ship fall of so you get citadels from submarine torpedos the torpedo belt prevents in any other scenario, like happens with destroyers. In all the years I played WoWS I've never seen a destroyer get a citadel hit with torpedos on any ship because they have a torpedo belt. I don't know about you, but to me looks like magically stripping a ship of part of their armor because reasons.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I personally think, that their speed migh be a few knots too fast overall. But that T10s have kinda same surface as dive speed is even realistic, the ratio is more or less same, unlike older submarines. If they are too fast and need balance, then it would proably happen in a same ratio. Like 28 knots surfaced and submerged.

Type 11 submarine had surfaced 15.3 knots (diesel), 17,9 knots (E-motor), 18 knots (both engines).

Type 11 submarine had submerged 16.5 knots (E-motor)

I would assume, that submarines move with diesel on surface to load the battery. So they are submerged actually faster, than surfaced. How is it in this game? Same. So it's

perspective of the ratio of surfaced/submerged speed.

Ok, let's check. 

 

Type 11 submarine: 15.6 knots surfaced, 17.2 knots submerged, 6.1 knots (silent running motors).

Seems to be a minuscule difference in our sources but it's so small what admittedly doesn't matter. Also, here it also shows the speed it had to sail submerged as to not be picked up by enemy sonars, which would be what translates as not being spotted in game.

 

Now, let's check what do we have in game, shall we?

 

U-2501 (the Type 11 we have in game currently): 26 knots surfaced, 31 knots submerged. Speed required to not be spotted: 31 knots (just dive enough, lol, will also make you deplete your dive capacity slower the deeper you swim because you're not spotted, guess that makes sense... for some reason. Maybe you could explain that too now that we're at it).

So... yeah, submarines in game seem to be... how did you put it?

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I personally think, that their speed migh be a few knots too fast overall.

Ah, yes, definitely an accurate statement, couldn't agree more. They're just a little bit faster. Nothing to worry about.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

There is not only one direction. I'm just a bit more real.

Mhm, I can see that.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

There should be ships with counters to submarines (Did I just said that? There should be ships, that do something to my poor submarine?), and some should not counter a submarine. It has 0 to do with "a ship did something to your poor submarine". It's the same like you would say. "Give all ships radar, oh, but god forbid a ships did something to your poor DD"

Ships without counters to DD have to work around that disadvantage. Them as Ships without counters to submarines.

Working artound that disadvantage being just knowing how to press A and D often enough or just quickly go full reverse and turn into the torpedos when you see those torpedos of that naughty naughty DD you can do nothing about to throw their prediction off, or at the very least reduce the amount of torpedos you get hit by. Gotta say it was proved exactly as effective against torpedos that home on you. I guess it's case closed, there's no problems to be seen. Submarines are perfect boys, moving on.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And the citadel mechanic is actually something, that is not an advantage, it's a design. The alternate design is:

-Hard hitting torpedos, that do always full dmg and get only reduced functions (torpedo belt).

Instead we get more complex torpedos

-Low hitting torpedos, do increased damage with homing (single ping), if hitting citadel, if double ping is active.

And yet is interesting to see how most people is begging that submarines are changed to the first option. Me included wouldn't have any problem against submarine torpedos acting the same as DD torpedos we have currently(that includes regular DD torpedo speed, not the BS we have right now). Being able to react to them and be able to simply dodge them like any other torpedo would be fine by me? Rise their damage in return? Fair enough, makes sense that since you actually have to work to make them hit if they hit they hit hard. It's the same as with DDs, no problem with that. But the current homing torpedos need to go.

 

3 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If you want, we can also talk about, how homing can be a disadvantage, if you like.

Let me guess, you launch torpedos, ping someone, he knows, torpedos home in and the ship you pinged quickly sails behind cover of an island to use it as shield for your torpedos because it's literally the only thing you can do against them. Or save a DCP for when you spot the torpedos breaking their home in, so you get the chance to try to dodge them by maneuvering like any other torpedo. Except it probably doesn't work either because they are so damn fast that it's too late by then there's not enough time to maneuver out of their path anyway unless you're maybe a DD or a really maneurable light cruiser. If I missed something then please, by all means, enlighten me. I'll always welcome knowing what can I do against the fair and fine homing torpedos.

[BLUB__BLUB]

6 hours ago, General_Alexus said:

Read what I wrote earlier: Remove DC-planes of BBs and give High-Calibre HE the ability to to damage in OPERATING DEPTH (aka deeper down).

On the surface and 8m deep this damage is 30% of HE alpha already (aka thats why you get blaped) -> taper of this damage to 10%,5%,1% the further you do down (so that you dont get blappen but it is still dangerous to get spotted)

 

I read that - it is kinda crap as well. Subs will go down, and get you from the other side. 

Better give them ASW. Just drop depth charges on them.  Also, they will not get spotted... 

even on the surface or a t periscope depth they are stealthier than DDs. 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

I'd like to understand like you how the disadvantages of a submarine in game compare to those of a Ferrari IRL and how this solves the problem the first ones are in the game. Maybe try to explain to me the submarine disadvantages in the game again? You can go at it like I'm 5, I won't get mad.

What I meant with those examples. When you only highlight advantages, everything will look OP. The Disadvantages are a counter balance.

 

Lets take the BBs again

If I say: Super high range (up to 26km) and super heavy AP with extreme hihg Alpha damage

--> This would sound op, though you already know, why it is not op, because you know about all the disadvantages.

Same with Submarines, you can mention all the advantages. But if you know the disadvantages, it doesn't sound that op

 

 

Disadvantages

1. Slow speed (speed is around the speed of BBs, those are slow)
2. Low combat range (14km is the highest of a submarine, that is scratching the "mid-range")
3. Only vertical attack lines (Front tubes and rear tubes)
4. Very low HP
5. "No" amor
6. Dive Capacity
7. Very conditional->complexity (Ping or no ping, DCP, different concealment levels)

The combination of point 1 to 3 leads to "inflexibilty" of a submarine. Slow vessels are often inflexibilty, with short combat range, it's even worse. Point 7 can be actually also an advantage, depends on the player. For some is the compleixtiy a handicap, but if someone is skilled, he might have an advantage over the bad sub player.

Please consider, I'm not complaining about, that these disadvantages exist, or that subs are too weak. I'm only evaluating subs in general, and I like those disadvantages, it's fun to play around them.

 

Disadvantages with Pings

1. Ping can be countered with DCP
2. Ping can't go over islands (like shells with arcs)
3. Ping needs aim (even though it's not the most difficult, it's still a disadvanatge and can mess around with the plan)

 

 

Disadvantages on Torpedos

1. Low damage (I think the lowest torpedo dmg from a Vessel?)
2. High damage only when
   1. You hit double ping
   2. You hit the citadel
   3. Double Ping doesn't get countered with DCP before impact
3. Homing can be a disadvantage, when People use homing to their advantage
   1. Moving torpedos into the island
   2. Turn ship in a way, that torpedos always miss (mostly for BBs and probably DDs after my obersvation)

Torpeods are relating on many conditions. While some would say, it's a advantage, that they can hit citadells with more damage, I see that different. Normal torpedos already have the max dmg, and with this max damage, they don't need to hit the citadel, they can hit everything: Bow, Stern, Side.

 

Yes, Subs have homing, but it's bound on so many conditions, while non-homing torpedos doesn't have these conditions. And that "balances" the homing

 

Remind: It's still possible, that current torps are too strong, but that's a balancing issue, not an issue with the mechanic.

 

 

2 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

You can go at it like I'm 5,

That made me smile ;P

 

3 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Which doesn't happen because double ping apparently makes the torpedo belt protection of a ship fall of so you get citadels from submarine torpedos the torpedo belt prevents in any other scenario, like happens with destroyers. In all the years I played WoWS I've never seen a destroyer get a citadel hit with torpedos on any ship because they have a torpedo belt. I don't know about you, but to me looks like magically stripping a ship of part of their armor because reasons.

No, I explained that. Torpedo belt doesn't get ignored. The damage against citadels gets increased, the torpedo protection should still work. The proof is ingame. When a 7k dmg torp hits a ship with ~20% Torpedobelt. Then after ignoring the torpedo belt it should be 7k, right? Two torpedo hits should be 14k dmg, right?

Why can I do 20k dmg?

 

 

That makes them actually stronger than "Just ignoring torpedo belt" xD

I think the reason for that mechanic is, that they want submarines more efficient against smaller ships, espeically cruisers. It seems that cruisers struggle the most to dodge the torpedos and they have a citadell, while the torpedo belt is weak

 

 

3 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Ok, let's check. 

 

Type 11 submarine: 15.6 knots surfaced, 17.2 knots submerged, 6.1 knots (silent running motors).

Seems to be a minuscule difference in our sources but it's so small what admittedly doesn't matter. Also, here it also shows the speed it had to sail submerged as to not be picked up by enemy sonars, which would be what translates as not being spotted in game.

It's a game, nor realism. We don't have real Hydros, where you have to listen to noise.

 

If a submarine moves slow, because of silent running, then ships have to move slow as well, otherwise the own ship noise would block the Hydro. But in this game a DD could move with 55 knots towards a submarine

 

What I want also mention, I gave a lot Feedback to the submarines, one assumption was to make the concealment not related to Depth, but on speed.

The slower you are, the better is the concealment (when dived, not on surface, periscipe depth would have the fix ~2.1 km)

 

 

3 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

U-2501 (the Type 11 we have in game currently): 26 knots surfaced, 31 knots submerged. Speed required to not be spotted: 31 knots (just dive enough, lol, will also make you deplete your dive capacity slower the deeper you swim because you're not spotted, guess that makes sense... for some reason. Maybe you could explain that too now that we're at it).

So... yeah, submarines in game seem to be... how did you put it?

If it's the higher speed, that bothers you: It's an arcade game, you have to change the speed, to make it interesting. Though 26 knots should be the slowest T10 in the game, shouldn't it be?

I'm sure we could design submarines around their original speed, but I think the game is too arcady for that and Wargaming also don't want too complex mechanics. They want it simple. Give them speed like other vessels is a simple solution. Blame WG :P

 

If you "dive enough" to not get spotted would probably mean maxium depth. At maximum depth a submarine is blind.Even if a team mate spots, she won't see it. That's what I mean with disadvantages.

 

 

3 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Ah, yes, definitely an accurate statement, couldn't agree more. They're just a little bit faster. Nothing to worry about.

My statement is not about "Oh they are too fast compared to real life". I'm talking about game balance. It doesn't matter, what their speed is in real life. This game has a lot inaccurate and magically stuff. If you want realistic stuff, you should play a Simulation. Or War Thunder, they are also kinda realistic.

 

Why is a 30 knot submarine an issue, but a 55 knots speed-DD (Kleber) fine? As far as I know, DDs had to move around 10-12 knots to be able to spot a Submarine with hydro.

 

 

3 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Working artound that disadvantage being just knowing how to press A and D often enough or just quickly go full reverse and turn into the torpedos when you see those torpedos of that naughty naughty DD you can do nothing about to throw their prediction off, or at the very least reduce the amount of torpedos you get hit by. Gotta say it was proved exactly as effective against torpedos that home on you. I guess it's case closed, there's no problems to be seen. Submarines are perfect boys, moving on. 

Sarcasm won't proof anything. You can play around the homing. Homing doesn't mean 100% hit chance. But you also need to consider, that a DD has main guns. A submarine not.

 

 

That BB was full broadside... what did he there? Just pressing D.

Note: The torpedos are already behind him.

 

3 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

And yet is interesting to see how most people is begging that submarines are changed to the first option. Me included wouldn't have any problem against submarine torpedos acting the same as DD torpedos we have currently(that includes regular DD torpedo speed, not the BS we have right now). Being able to react to them and be able to simply dodge them like any other torpedo would be fine by me? Rise their damage in return? Fair enough, makes sense that since you actually have to work to make them hit if they hit they hit hard. It's the same as with DDs, no problem with that. But the current homing torpedos need to go.

I wouldn't be against dumbfire straight high hitting Torpedos. My suggestion was always to give sub 2 types of torps

-Slow torps, short range, high dmg

-Fast torps, homing, long range, low damage (nerf the current citadel dmg)

 

That would give us a AP/HE relation.

 

But the thing is: The high hitting, non homing torps would be way more op, those torpdes could be send of at ~2.5km, while  doing that with homing torps would mean ,that the sub gets spotted and maybe even sunk with ASW planes. (A ping increases concleament to 4km)

 

3 hours ago, SHDRKN4792 said:

Except it probably doesn't work either because they are so damn fast that it's too late by then there's not enough time to maneuver out of their path anyway unless you're maybe a DD or a really maneurable light cruiser.

Actually wrong, A BB can dodge homing torpedos. I can send you more of these screenshots.

But that are two ways, yes

-using island

-using DCP

But you should also know, the homing breaks at a certain distance. This distance is high for BBs, that makes it possible to dodge. It seems the distance for cruisers is bad, that cruisers struggle, while DDs are still maneuverable enough

Also BBs DCP last around ~10s. The reaction time of those torps are mostly ~10s.
As soon you see them, you can actually use DCP. Even if you press it 2 secs to early, the submarine won't be able to get a double ping back. Cita dmg is 100% countered.

 

But aside island and DCP, I alredy mentioned it, some ships are very good in A/D the torpedos. I assume, that some unicums will figure out, how a BB will dodge them to 100%, when it's time to turn and trick the homing torpedos.

The thing with homing is, you can calculate the behavior.

-You know the direciton of the submarine

-You know, what the homing torps will target (highlighted spot)

The only thing you don't know, if the torps are send left side or right side, but on a larger distance it doesn't matter, they will narrow to the target together.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I read that - it is kinda crap as well. Subs will go down, and get you from the other side. 

Better give them ASW. Just drop depth charges on them.  Also, they will not get spotted... 

even on the surface or a t periscope depth they are stealthier than DDs.  

 

Not all. USN should have 5.9 km with camo and germans 5.6 km.

Consider: Germans are the smallest. IJN Submarines are larger than USN Submarines, those might get 6.1 km or 6.2 km concealment.

Ru submarines is around the size of USN submarines.

 

So the concealment of submarines might be 5.6, 5.9, 5.9, 6.2

 

You need to consider: At periscope depth all ships get better concealment.

[pissBoiler]

Just got out of ranked in the Graf Spee. 

 

So nice to end up against a submarine with another GS. No counterplay. 

 

Took his time, casually killing both of us. No counterplay, because reasons and spreadsheets and, erhm, reasons. 

 

My Premium expires today. Seeing as Operations is now the only tolerable gamemode, it won't be renewed. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

24 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Not all. USN should have 5.9 km with camo and germans 5.6 km.

Consider: Germans are the smallest. IJN Submarines are larger than USN Submarines, those might get 6.1 km or 6.2 km concealment.

Ru submarines is around the size of USN submarines.

Name a DD then that has better concealment? 

 

24 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You need to consider: At periscope depth all ships get better concealment.

OK then, name one DD, CL, BB or even CV that has a periscope.... 

I have seen them all at "periscope depth", but I never saw one that managed to launch torps or shoot at that depth... 

 

What I have seen is a sub approaching a BB... oops... BB guns were turned towards the sub...

But then he just dived under the BB... and torped him from the other side.

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Name a DD then that has better concealment?  

Better? Why it has to be better? Subs are much smaller. While people complain about "unrealistic speed", it's also unrealistic, that the SS get same concealment than DDs xD

But many Torpedo/Hybrid DDs will have better concealment than most submarines, except the germans (that's their feature).

Though Kagero and Asashio have 5.4 km btw ;P

 

14 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

OK then, name one DD, CL, BB or even CV that has a periscope.... 

I have seen them all at "periscope depth", but I never saw one that managed to launch torps or shoot at that depth... 

 

When a submarine is on periscope depth, all ships get better concealment against that submarine.

DDs will get concealment aroun 2.4km. My Shiki without Concealment skill will have 11.5km concealment against a submerged submarine.

 

22 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

What I have seen is a sub approaching a BB... oops... BB guns were turned towards the sub...

But then he just dived under the BB... and torped him from the other side.

I also have seen subs getting one-shotted. But then: I have seen any ship type combinations, where every different ship type could win that setup

 

I saw DDs winning over cruisers, cruisers winning over DDs.

I saw BBs wining over DDs, and DDs winning over BBs.

Don't know, why SS should be an exception ^^'

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Better? Why it has to be better? Subs are much smaller. While people complain about "unrealistic speed", it's also unrealistic, that the SS get same concealment than DDs xD

But many Torpedo/Hybrid DDs will have better concealment than most submarines, except the germans (that's their feature).

Though Kagero and Asashio have 5.4 km btw ;P

But they ARE stealthier than DDs. In many ways. Too many IMO.

Dds do not get 8 minute insta-smoke, as such DDs have limited "disappear now" button.

DDs can always be spotted by radar/hydro. And even in smoke the smoke tells ~where they are.

You can drop torps into smoke and shoot into it. Good luck depth charging the whole map.

 

Quote

When a submarine is on periscope depth, all ships get better concealment against that submarine.

DDs will get concealment aroun 2.4km. My Shiki without Concealment skill will have 11.5km concealment against a submerged submarine.

Oh, is that what you mean. Well maybe all concealment should be halved, so your Shiki only gets seen at 5.5?

 

Quote

I also have seen subs getting one-shotted. But then: I have seen any ship type combinations, where every different ship type could win that setup

Seen many. The problem is: any idiot can abuse this one. And they will.

 

Quote

I saw DDs winning over cruisers, cruisers winning over DDs.

I saw BBs wining over DDs, and DDs winning over BBs.

Don't know, why SS should be an exception ^^'

They shouldn't  be an exception:  as such, everything needs some sort of ASW to fight against subs. 

Not saying it should be super-effective. It can be mega-meh. As in: short hydro only, so you can try to "just dodge"... 

Some sort of "asdic", like a 1-sec-hydro-every-30-secs? 

[Pikkozoikum]

14 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

But they ARE stealthier than DDs. In many ways. Too many IMO.

Not sure, what you mean... or how the current concealment design is an issue

 

14 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Dds do not get 8 minute insta-smoke, as such DDs have limited "disappear now" button.

This is a pretty bad example. Because Subs don't get high speed and a speed boost. or a smoke, that could cover ships on surface. They don't get main guns

Submarines are design around the diving mechanic, why should a DD get a diving mechanic?

 

16 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

DDs can always be spotted by radar/hydro. And even in smoke the smoke tells ~where they are.

DDs have speed and more HP to survive that. Submarines don't

 

17 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You can drop torps into smoke and shoot into it. Good luck depth charging the whole map.

Different mechanics work different, why compare them then, as that should be same?

Do we compare Hydro vs Radar? Radar has so much more range, So should now buff Hydro to 10-12km? Making everything even makes no sense.

 

I mean the comparions DD in smoke, but SS whole map is quite weird. Why has to be the DD in smoke? If the submarine is dived deep, then he was probably spotted, and then you can hit him with ASW

 

23 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Seen many. The problem is: any idiot can abuse this one. And they will.

What do you mean? Currently many subs are at the bottom score, some at mid and rarely at top

 

24 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

They shouldn't  be an exception:  as such, everything needs some sort of ASW to fight against subs. 

Why? ASW is not an main armament. ASW is a counter armament, or even a counter-consumable, that does dmg.

 

When you play a DD, what is the play of a BB? As BB I'm kinda fked, if that DD is not stupid. So the only play is to run away. There is no magic weapon to sink the DD. BBs don't have radar, so they can damage the DD. They don't get counter consumables or counter armaments.

It should be the same against submarines for some ships. Some ships get counter stuff, some doens't

 

32 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Oh, is that what you mean. Well maybe all concealment should be halved, so your Shiki only gets seen at 5.5?

Halfed? Ship oncealment becomes the air concealment. 5.5km for a battleships without concealment skills would be broken xD

What should DDs get then? 500m? :D

The concealment is actually pretty good design right now. If a submarine pings and a DD is at 2.5-4km, the DD will out-spot the Submarine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dutchy_2019]

I have played a couple of games against them, and I do NOT have a positive feeling about it.

 

• The presence of subs makes the field feel completely empty: When there are 3 subs, that only leaves 6 surface ships for the whole of a map. That makes for a VERY empty map, and if you are in a NOT ASW ship, then you are done VERY quickly. Example: In Äegir (to get Cruiser damage mission done), with only 6 ships I was effectively done in 5 minutes (as all of the ONLY 6 enemy ships were killed), I spent the next 5 waiting for the surviving bot sub being killed (or found). NO fun at all.
• Effectively subs are create a hard cap on damage: The presence of subs has as a result that much of the community has decided to play cruisers or DD's. This effectively results in a hard cap on damage for the players involved. Again, NOT a motivating factor for me.
• Subs unnecessarily lengthen the game: All ships but a single enemy ship killed, and then spending the next 5 minutes looking for that one sub, is - again - NO fun at all. BTW, we did NOT manage to find it. This has the same disastrous effect on game experience as CV's hiding behind islands and in the corner of the map that unnecessarily lengthen games, and effectively mask ROFLstomps from the WG devs (since they have admitted on screen in an official WoWs stream that for them the length of a match is a major factor determining the quality of a match - where the time spent hunting the one submarine or CV masks the fact that the game has effectively been over for minutes, and has needlessly been stretched by 25% or more of the time, with the only one benefitting the CV (since he gets more time to farm damage).

Solution:

 

DO NOT reduce the number of surface ships. Create 'as needed' slots (something like  slot nr 13 - 15) which is used for submarines and/or CV's (max 1 CV) and can only be filled by them! 

[BLUB__BLUB]

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

This is a pretty bad example.

No it is not a bad example. Actually it is really too weak. DDs can get shot, torped and flushed out of their smoke, too. 

Subs can't be shot when deep, can't be torped (except by other subs) and cannot be flushed out. 

Some ships you seem to be fine with if they do not even get ASW. 

 

That would be like a DD having smoke, that cannot be penetrated by anything else than another DD. Like a wall.

Also, nobody that has the "special bombs" can hit him when inside that smoke. You also cannot detect him if you haven't got the special tool.

And, if you have not seen him go in that smoke, the smoke is invisible... it is no different from the rest of the water... 

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When you play a DD, what is the play of a BB? As BB I'm kinda fked, if that DD is not stupid.

Nope. If you are sure it in one DD, then you run him down. You might eat a torp or two, risk eating all (wel... if you are dumb...) but you CAN kill him. 

If he smokes up, then you will almost sure kill him. Good  luck trying that on a sub. 

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What do you mean? Currently many subs are at the bottom score, some at mid and rarely at top

I was not on bottom at all. And I'm quite mediocre. My divvy (a DD main) was usually in the top 3. 

But that is like "spreadsheet says..." and we both do not have the actual data. 

I do not find it hard though. Playing DDs is much harder IMO. 

 

Now I am kinda N00b at playing DD, and subs are new - so same staring point. 

I'm ending up on the ladder much higher when I play a sub. And die a lot less. 

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Different mechanics work different, why compare them then, as that should be same?

Do we compare Hydro vs Radar? Radar has so much more range, So should now buff Hydro to 10-12km? Making everything even makes no sense.

 

I mean the comparions DD in smoke, but SS whole map is quite weird. Why has to be the DD in smoke? If the submarine is dived deep, then he was probably spotted, and then you can hit him with ASW

This is where you go wrong. Mechanics do not have to be the same, but every ship needs something vs the other. 

Hydro is much handier than radar - because hydro spots torps, and radar does not. Therefore you do not need 12km hydro. 

And no, if you do not have ASW, then you cannot hit the sub. That is the whole thing, you say that ASW is not necessary,

and then you go "If the submarine is dived deep, then he was probably spotted, and then you can hit him with ASW"

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If a submarine pings and a DD is at 2.5-4km, the DD will out-spot the Submarine.

Yeah but if that DD shoots, then not so, eh? 

That's kinda like, if he farts you'll smell it, kinda "so this is right".  

[pissBoiler]

10 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

I have played a couple of games against them, and I do NOT have a positive feeling about it.

 

• The presence of subs makes the field feel completely empty: When there are 3 subs, that only leaves 6 surface ships for the whole of a map. That makes for a VERY empty map, and if you are in a NOT ASW ship, then you are done VERY quickly. Example: In Äegir (to get Cruiser damage mission done), with only 6 ships I was effectively done in 5 minutes (as all of the ONLY 6 enemy ships were killed), I spent the next 5 waiting for the surviving bot sub being killed (or found). NO fun at all.
• ...

Solution:

 

DO NOT reduce the number of surface ships. Create 'as needed' slots (something like  slot nr 13 - 15) which is used for submarines and/or CV's (max 1 CV) and can only be filled by them! 

 

Brilliant point. I couldn't put that into words, only registered the  feeling of wrongness. Thanks. 

 

Also, it's another issue which could have been attended to IF WARGAMING HAD ACTUALLY PLAYED THEIR OWN GAME BEFORE GOING LIVE

[FooFaFie]

If the end result is that subs kills of 5 enemy BBs each game I will support subs all day long.

 

But we really need to get subs in random so we really can see what they can or can't do. Can't you make a separate game mode (identical to Random) for subs as test for a week or 2? 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, FieFaFoo said:

Can't you make a separate game mode (identical to Random) for subs as test for a week or 2? 

Yes, this. Ranked was a crapshow before (lots of campers trying to be "top" that is their goal) and it still is. 

Main problem, they are not trying to win with the team,  but just to make sure they THEMSELVES do not end up last. 

Also, it is not 12 vs 12. 

 

Get the subs on a separate-randoms where you can earn stuff to go in with a surface ship. 

Playing "the piñata" should be worth something after all. And you will see if anyone likes it.

If the rewards are good but you only get subs... well... then you know... @YabbaCoe

[Deckeru_Maiku]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Main problem, they are not trying to win with the team,  but just to make sure they THEMSELVES do not end up last.

Kinda like CVs then, right?

Not playing for the team, but for "damage efficiency"

 

[Menoetius]

Since there is underwater terrain now, how about adding a complete sinking animation for normal ships so when you die you can actually see your ship go down to the bottom. Now we are stuck watching the animation on the surface, continue to observe the game or go back to port. Throw in some hull crushing sounds for it while your at it for immersion...

[Shaka_D]

In testing subs, I have repeatedly had my homing lock broken by enemy ships and subs, but cannot do the same when playing various ships and subs. Is there a 'how to' guide somewhere I can lean on to learn the basics? I can't really offer accurate feedback if I can't figure out the mechanics. Thanks in advance!

[Franz_von_Suppe]

7 minutes ago, Shaka_D said:

In testing subs, I have repeatedly had my homing lock broken by enemy ships and subs, but cannot do the same when playing various ships and subs. Is there a 'how to' guide somewhere I can lean on to learn the basics? I can't really offer accurate feedback if I can't figure out the mechanics. Thanks in advance!

Use Damage Control Party.

[Dutchy_2019]

Not a fan of the spotting mechanic with subs either:

 

Just about everybody playing the game - and among them many CV mains - consider the spotting mechanic with aircraft (and fighters) for CVs completely broken. Now with subs it is even worse. The ONLY hope you have when playing a DD and you go sub-hunting is that all the enemy ships are either complete idiots or blocked by islands. Otherwise the DD is gone before he/she has killed the ship. Even more so as often it is completely impossible to kill the enemy sub with a full load of depth charges.

 

Solution:

 

CVs and subs UNDERNEATH THE SURFACE do no longer spot for the team, but spot on the minimap. If a sub is on the surface, him spotting for the team might be considered.