General Submarines related discussions

[General_Alexus]

Ok I played my fair bit of subs in ranked now.

Is it just me or are BBs (ironicly) way more dangerous to subs than DDs? I am not talking main battery fire here, the DC-airplanes are far more dangerous than DD droped DC. Even though there are more DDs in the matches, I dont recount ever getting killed by DDs(alone), only through guided torps of other subs (thats fine) and said BB planes.

 

I dont have anything against BBs having a tool but seriously: If a DD hunts me, not only does he himself needs to take his ship at risk, I see him in advance ages ago (and be it because I try to torp him) and can evade his predictable DC quite easy while taking minor damage. The BB planes on the other hand come without warning (I guess I get spotted briefly) and are way faster at my location. The damage seems to be at DD level as well or even more (because more acurate drops)

 

So while a DD not only needs to spot me, plan his approach, make sure he doesnt get sunk by me or my teammates for going to my position, and still has a harder time destroying me, a BB littaraly needs to be within 12-14km (what was the range?) of my position, maybe even unspotted, to call in the airstrike that is over my location a few SECONDS after and I dont even get a warning of that other than maybe I seeing the planes.

 

Conclusion:

1)BBs dont need to complain at all about subs in the least.

2) maybe Developers might look into theire "spreadsheets" and if BBs are in fact the better DD hunters (I admit that I am talking only personal experience and a bit of comon sense here) they might change some numbers around.

3) You might want to lower range of the airstrike consumable, you might want to give subs a warning of an inbound strike, you might want to lower the damage or increese the time it takes for planes to fly over to you.

 

I am saying this because in randoms, even though we have bigger maps, with 5 BBs/game it could be very toxic for Subs. The DC planes serve no other purpose than to be used against subs (duh), they require no skill and are a quick, throw-away, fire and forget mechanic, so as soon as a sub is spotted briefly you get clicked on my 3-5 BBs in the area (talking about Arty)

[BLUB__BLUB]

39 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

I am saying this because in randoms, even though we have bigger maps, with 5 BBs/game it could be very toxic for Subs. The DC planes serve no other purpose than to be used against subs (duh), they require no skill and are a quick, throw-away, fire and forget mechanic, so as soon as a sub is spotted briefly you get clicked on my 3-5 BBs in the area (talking about Arty)

Yes, that is why they will not really get balanced except when after they apply them in randoms. 

WeeGee have just put them into ranked to find out more about the mechanics. The rest still needs doing.

 

[mariouus]

44 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

Conclusion:

1)BBs dont need to complain at all about subs in the least.

2) maybe Developers might look into theire "spreadsheets" and if BBs are in fact the better DD hunters (I admit that I am talking only personal experience and a bit of comon sense here) they might change some numbers around.

3) You might want to lower range of the airstrike consumable, you might want to give subs a warning of an inbound strike, you might want to lower the damage or increese the time it takes for planes to fly over to you.

I might be wrong here, but asfar as I can understand.

 

1.While BB ASW aircraft is good. But this is mostly because it is provided with a aiming sight. While DD/Cruiser Depthcharges do not. Even Forward firing ASW mortars/rockets does not have a sight (maybe they do, I just dont know how).

2. BBs and CL/CAs, even when having ASW weapons - canˇt really ASW. Due the fact that they can strike only spoted target, and not spot them them self.  Hydro is need. Not all have it.

 

Another Fun fact with Subs: Introductsion of Subs actually is a indirect buff for CVs - its mostly AA-consumable that gets swaped with Hydro - in combination with adding No-AA subs. Massivley reduces CV plain losses and increases its impact.

 

This actually brings us to the biggest problem with subs. Their impact is heavily influenced by MM -rather than balancing.

 

Due the fact that we essentially have 3.types of ships

 

1.Ships that can ASW - both spot and attack.

2.Ships that can support ASW - either spot only or attack only.

3.Ships that can not ASW.

 

Do complicate thing even further - all ships can sink a surfaced sub - meaning that difference between good and bad sub player is still rather large.

 

So the entire concept is flawed  and basically un-balancable.

You can have one team with great ASW and another with almost none. Basically MM decides performance of the Subs.

 

 

[Mork77]

1 hour ago, Gvozdika said:

Answer me this. Would you be happy with ships like that being added to the game? Can you possibly see some of the issues that will occur as a result?

Well, I guess Carriers will be in need of a buff...

[General_Alexus]

6 minutes ago, mariouus said:

So the entire concept is flawed  and basically un-balancable.

We are already far over the rubicon in terms of balance, just to give you an example:

We had CVs as anti BB and DD tool,nessesary in terms of balance because in closed alpha not even Radar(and also not hydro btw) was not a thing as a tool to deal with DDs when no CV was present. In Terms of balance a CV was absolutly nessesary, now you see where we ended up with CVs as they could not just remove them after they invented Hydro/Radar/massive amounts of DD-Gunboats/DD-hunter-lines.

 

WoWS is not an e-sports title, in adition we have premium-ships that are not obtainable anymore far better than regular ships, you notice that in ranked as well atm.

So I dont ask the question of balance anymore, the question is:

Is it fun?

 

And yeah overall I find subs fun, playing as subs and against them.

 

I dont think I can answer impacts on the overall meta as you tried to hint at in your post, I try to give WG some hints on minor pin-point locations (like the BB DC-planes, pls have a look at the overall efectiveness of ships against subs)

[Synth_FG]

Just had my first ranked game that included subs
What dribbling moron thought this would be fun and engaging to add to the game 
just pointless and distracts from the main battle without adding anything 
Can we just bin these off or very soon I'll loose all interest playing any game mode / battle that includes these things 

[mariouus]

6 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

So I dont ask the question of balance anymore, the question is:

Is it fun?

This actually is a "fun" issue.

 

In current itteration Sub thing almost entirely dependes on MM. You can have enemy team almost with-out ASW. Or a team with great ASW. 

 

In other word. At this point - it is more or less impossible do provide consistend "fun". It will be more or less - that in one battle you can roam around freely and in other you will just get slaughtered.

 

In order do be consistent. All ships should be able to ASW - how well can be a balance feature. But you can not have ships with-out ASW. Because in this case, you can not achive consistency.

 

For example. All DDs can spot and cap better than other classes. How well they can do it - dependes on balance. But they can do it.

 

When comparing currently implemented ASW with DDs. Would basically mean that some DDs could both Cap and Spot, Some would only have couple of km of Spoting range and some would have its Caping ability removed. 

 

 

[mtm78]

24 minutes ago, General_Alexus said:

So I dont ask the question of balance anymore, the question is:

Is it fun?

 

Without balance there can only be fun on one side of the coin, this doesn't seem healthy game design to me but it's good enough for you? 

[Pikkozoikum]

17 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Which is time compression, which you say is in all games...

I didn't say, there is time compression in all games? I said, there is always something for submarines, that accelerates their speed in some way.

In Sims you often have realistic speed, but that would be boring, if there wouldn't be a way for accelerating the time

Time compression is mostly not an option for Real time pvp games (I mean shooter like games, not RTS like paradox games), so we need some way to compensate that. Steel Ocean and WoWS do that by increasing the speed of submarines. Steel Ocean had in mid tier 25 knot subs (I don't know high tiers)

 

17 hours ago, mtm78 said:

You can do that with any game off course, but you'll remove any reference.

Which submarine game has not a way to skip long waiting times (by speed or time)?

 

17 hours ago, mtm78 said:

And yes, you liking Steel Ocean does show me how WG is listening to feedback from players I wished would have stuck with that game instead of trying to ruin this one.

That's rather rude. I wish you would play the game, rather than posting this nonsense.

 

17 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Useless.. YOUR whole blahblahblah you write down is YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE as well. The difference is my preference has an explanation, as does yours but you're not ready to blatantly admit you like submarines and think they should be in the game BECAUSE YOU LIKE THEM, nothing more nothing less. 

You totally mistaken it here. I was refering to something very specific, where you said, that this is your personal preference. And I agreed, that if that is your personal preference, than there is no reason to argue around.

 

But what you say here is no context. Yes, I want submarines in the game, but how does that matter with most statements?

If I say, "I like math" and then "1+1=2"

Is 1+1=2 wrong, just because I like math? That makes totally no sense. And that is literally what you are saying, "You like subs, so you statements are all personal preference", No. A personal preference is, when I want submarines. When I say, that the torpedo dmg buff is too high, then that is not a personal prefence. It's a statement based on experience, assumptions and analyzing numbers.

 

Also you totally misunderstand true statements. When someone says "Submarines never fought warships". Then it has nothing to do with my personal preference, if that statement is wrong.

 

Aside that, I said many times, that I like submarines, so why saying wrong stuff like "not ready to blatantly admit, you like submarines (...)". I said exactly that, that I like submarines, that I was in Steel Ocean a submarine main.

 

Some examples:

On 8/13/2021 at 5:04 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Was sub main in Stell Ocean :3

On 4/15/2020 at 8:17 AM, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm happy about new content, especially I was Sub main in Steel Ocean, so I'm excited about it.

Even month if not years ago. So where I'm not saying, that I don't like submarines? xD

And if that is not even enough, I'm sure you can quote me, where I exactly say, that I like submarines in general.

 

But also I don't know how that matters about my statements.

 

It was only about this:

21 hours ago, mtm78 said:

Yes it is, but only because it is the most immersion breaking element to me personally. But yes, that is a personal preference I admit. It's also one which this game again was strategically marketed against imo.  

 

I said, okay, if it's your personal preference, then fine!

 

[mtm78]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

Which submarine game has not a way to skip long waiting times (by speed or time)?

 

READ: submarines have a different time compression as the other classes. DIFFERENT. Stop acting like you're dumb, I will start to assume you're being a troll otherwise. 

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Also you totally misunderstand true statements.

 

No you totally misunderstand your wall of text with no arguments means nothing. You still don't even grasp my point, and when it looks like you do: ow that's your preference.

 

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When someone says "Submarines never fought warships". Then it has nothing to do with my personal preference, if that statement is wrong.

Who sad that? I sad they do not belong in the game, that NO ONE STILL hasn't come up with a list of these grand battles where submarines were actively involved, and that even if they did they wouldn't be in the same time compression scale because that would make submarines act like UFO's in order to put them in a 20m battle timer. That's not 'my preference' is is a ffin fact, the ONLY THING about it which is MY PREFERENCE is that this FACT makes the whole game no longer enjoyable. 

 

Now react on the subject or don't I don't care, but stop lying and pretending you're stupid. 

[Pikkozoikum]

Played now a few rounds with submarines.

BBs can dodge torpedos. Shot 3 salvos, only the 3rd salvo archived cit, though the BB could have DCP'ed that. Mostly the torpedos just missed. And I used a spread and delay, to make it harder to dodge.

 

On the other hand, I could generate in most games quite a lot base exp. Even surface-shot a DD. It felt OP; but then, if the DD wouldn't move straight on me, he could just dodge it, I assume.

 

I don't think that the concept of homing Torpedos is OP by default. If someone doesn't like the design, I can understand that, but not, if someone thinks, they are op just because they are homing

 

Some Screenshots here:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

I was sending multiple salvos over a few minutes, Got 1 hit, later a broadside hit with cit (could have been avodid with DCP)

The BB was sailing in front of me all the time and never countering with DCP. Still most torpedos missed just by maneuvering.

 

Here the DD moved away from the Island, I dropped torps and pinged him, when he smoked. While my torpedos where already running, he turned towards the island and my torps run into the island.

That's my experience so far

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sprockett]

Subs Proving their worth.... 2 less team mates..... 

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

READ: submarines have a different time compression as the other classes. DIFFERENT. Stop acting like you're dumb, I will start to assume you're being a troll otherwise. 

I was asking you, what you exactly mean with "time compression", so I know, we talk about the same or something different.

Because I was talking about a completly different topic and not the artifically speed increase of world of warships, which every shell, torpedo and ship has, as it also has a larger size-scale.

 

Quote

Q: I heard that the ships move five times the real speed and the shells fly twice as fast. Have you increased the speed, or shrunk the distances? How does doubling the speed of shells influence their ballistics?
A: Let me explain this in some detail.
1. There are two types of distance measures in the game, the ship meter (relevant to the ships) and the ballistic meter (relevant to the shells in flight).
2. One ship meter equals two shell meters, which means that the ships are twice their real size.
3. The ballistics trajectories are computed with maximum realism, but are flattened to make tracing shots and aiming easier.
4. The speeds of ships, torpedoes and planes are increased by a factor 5.22 relative the ballistic meter.
5. The speeds of shell are increased by a factor 2.61 relative to the ballistic meter.
6. The detonators on the AP shells are modeled based on gameplay considerations.

I would assume, that submarines count to ships. In case you mean that with "time compression"

 

26 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

No you totally misunderstand your wall of text with no arguments means nothing.

That's your claim. It would be an argument, if there would be some reference, numbers, prooves etc.

 

 

27 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

You still don't even grasp my point, and when it looks like you do: ow that's your preference.

And you still didn't understand the the thing with the personal preference.

 

You "I admit, it's only my personal prefence"

Me "Oh, that's fine"

You "HOW DARE YOU!?!?!?"

 

You come up all the time with the personal prefence, not me.

For the record: You came up again with it.

 

29 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Who sad that?

That is an EXAMPLE. There are people, who claimed that. I gave an EXAMPLE for my COMMENTS here, which have nothing to do with personal prefence. I was not quoting you.

 

I summarize it for you:

• I like submarines
• I was a submarine main in Steel Ocean
• I like talking about it
• If someone says something, that is worthy to talk about, then I talk about it
• If someone claims something wrong, or something, that lacks in perspectives, then I might engage a discussion
• I don't claim to be always right or correct, everyone does mistakes
• Some statements are based on my opinion and experience, mostly I mention that

It might not cover everything.

 

 

33 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

but stop lying and pretending you're stupid.  

How to make a serious discussion.

 

 

Btw you engaged me with this conversation. Initially about immersion. I said, the immersion compared to the rest of the game is fine for me, you said, it's breaking the immersion. I explained, why it's fine for me. Go with it or let it.

[Pikkozoikum]

31 minutes ago, Sprockett said:

Subs Proving their worth.... 2 less team mates..... 

You need to consider a few points

 

• Submarines are new and mostly not played at their full potential
• Submarines are slow with short/medium range, that makes them inflexible and only strong in specific situations
• A bad match. DDs can also die very early, it's similar with SS

 

 

I had also some good matches like this one:

 

 

So I think you can have both, bad matches and good matches. Though it might be harder to get a good match, because of the speed/range issue of submarines. That's what I assume.

[General_Alexus]

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

 

Without balance there can only be fun on one side of the coin, this doesn't seem healthy game design to me but it's good enough for you? 

Lets take war*t.* (more realistic tank,plain,ship game I dont know if I can name it here) for example.

You can have Tanks in the same battle as planes, planes cant cap a base important for winning, but MBTs cant shoot at planes with there main gun due to gunelevation-restrictions, yeah they can try to hit Jetplanes with theire tiny 12.7mm coax mashinegun but for the sake of argument: in the Jet vs MBT encounter the "FUN" is only at one side of the coin. Can the game still be fun? YES: because you can respawn in a jet and get paypack, or spawn a SPG with radarhoming missiles or 40mm autocanons, thouse might not be so good against other MBTs, but you can blow jets out of the sky like nothing.

So you see: even though WT is not an e-sports title, it sure as hell is fun.

 

TLDR: scissors dont has much fun against stone, but loves to fight paper.

[JohnMac79]

7 hours ago, admiraldelorin said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

From December 1941 to November 1943 the Mark 14 and the destroyer-launched Mark 15 torpedo had numerous technical problems that took almost two years to fix.

https://militaryhistoryonline.com/WWII/MarkXIVTorpedo
 

need more sources?

Umm, you just failed again. My point was, talking about 'historically accurate' in this game is a nothing but a bad joke, i dont know why people keep quoting 'historical facts' in this alternate reality game WG have created...

 

Can you provide me the wiki page that says the Russian Navy was the strongest in the world too...

[mtm78]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I would assume, that submarines count to ships. In case you mean that with "time compression"

 

Yes, thank you. Now tell me how submarines move at the same multiplier as other classes when irl they were slow as heck. You can not and you keep talking around it.

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And you still didn't understand the the thing with the personal preference.

No, you're the one going around pretending like your personal preference are facts, and I guess I'm trying to convince you in your eyes of the same while all I want you to acknowledge is that my argument does contain actual 'facts' as you call them ( and yes, I am to lazy to look up quote's I'm assuming someone so active on this forum to know what I mean when talking about common mechanics which been a talking point since the start of the game.. ). More so, they are the exact facts why they, imo, did not fit in the game, and will not fit in the game. 

 

They will be harder to balance as carriers... do you really want to go through another case of that? If you even trust WG would be able to pull it off. And if you DO manage to make them fun both to play and play against, you're no longer having submarines in the game but some fantasy version of it. Again this is a fact, and something most here did not want in this game at least when they were first discussed with WG's core players they themselves targeted with their invitation program to test for them and give feedback on the game.

 

That for me is one of the bigger reasons why I no longer have faith in WG, that and lots of other development choices made between 'release' and now. It's not even the mechanics or even that they want to add submarines, it's that they ASSURED US they wouldn't. And they lie about motivation for mechanics, I will repeat that when I was defending stealth fire WG called me out on it and claimed it was a toxic mechanic I was used to abusing. The toxic element was, that I was damaging others and could not be damaged. My counter argument was that this were true, but it meant that teams actually had to work together and that with teamwork you COULD counter stealth fire. But this wasn't an acceptable solution, because it made individual players to dependent on their teams. Basically they admitted that the whole rock paper scissors concept didn't work in random battles, and what followed was a change that every ship would be able to somewhat deal with another ship, with the exception of carriers which they therefore had tremendous problems balancing. And now you're defending them adding another class and wanting it to be balanced exactly like carriers. 

 

Because every ship can deal with every other ship. Yes, a DD should win from a BB in most situations but I killed a LOT of them in my BB's. And cruisers should lose to a battleship right... yet I've sunken countless battleships in my cruisers. And a destroyer should lose to a cruiser... yet I sank numerous cruisers with my destroyers. And that makes a fun game, having the ability to not have to rely on your random team members to have a chance of winning the game. 

 

I guess this get's less important the less importance one puts on the fact that this game has objectives, you know, winning is the biggest one and you can do it through many ways. 

 

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

20210820_163918_PGSS106-U-69_13_OC_new_dawn.wowsreplay

 that was a fun match, and that missplay at the end, damn, I didn't watch xD

[Pikkozoikum]

54 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Yes, thank you. Now tell me how submarines move at the same multiplier as other classes when irl they were slow as heck. You can not and you keep talking around it.

I have to repeat myself over and over again. The speed coefficient of all ships is the same. The stats of the ship is different. A kleber can move 55 knots times the coefficient.  A U-69 moves with 25 knots times the coefficient.

So no idea, what you are talking about. The Coefficient is for all the same, unless you can give me a soruce, that they use a different coefficient. There speed-stat of the vessel is different from irl. But what is the point of that? Where is the context? I explained everything around it.

 

57 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

No, you're the one going around pretending like your personal preference are facts,

ok. Lets quote a single sentence but ignore all arguments, statements, facts, experiences and description and say, "But there is nothing" xD

I do the same now. I mean, we don't read wall of textes here, right?

[mtm78]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I have to repeat myself over and over again. 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

A U-69 moves with 25 knots

Except it doesn't. That class moved with 17kts ABOVE WATER and 7kts UNDERWATER 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

A kleber can move 55 knots

Kleber does 44kts, why are you lying just to make your point more 'acceptable'? Flags and consumables with your one 'argument' and nothing on the other. And you're picking Kleber for the single reason WG has slapped that with the biggest consumable boost, something which indeed already messes with immersion but they feel they need to do to make us buy / grind new RU DD's I mean French DD's. Consumable spam is already bad, and you're trying to use that as an excuse to remove an entire class from using the same speed coefficient as the rest of the classes in the game. 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The Coefficient is for all the same

Except it is not.

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I explained everything around it.

You seem to be going around claiming submarines in WWII moved at speeds which would make current nuclear submarines turn green off envy, not sure what you're trying to explain while doing that. 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Lets quote a single sentence but ignore all arguments, statements, facts, experiences and description and say, "But there is nothing" xD

Because you're doing a proper WG by ignoring the actual facts, throwing in some sprinkles of unrelated stuff, and then lying about the fact that submarines move at the same relative speed as other classes. 

[Pikkozoikum]

26 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Except it doesn't. That class moved with 17kts ABOVE WATER and 7kts UNDERWATER 

I explained why, but it seems repeating the explanation doesn't make sense, since it gets ignored.

 

27 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Kleber does 44kts, why are you lying just to make your point more 'acceptable'? Flags and consumables with your one 'argument' and nothing on the other. 

Wasn't my one argument, Kleber is just the extreme example. Most DDs are faster with speed boost than irl. But I can repeat myself over and over again. Also most planes were extremly more faster than in this game. According to your logic, we have to buff the speed of the planes.

 

28 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Except it is not.

Proof it. I showed the official source. Show me the soruce, that the coefficient is different, otherwise it's an empty claim. That's the extreme rude thing about your statements. you claim, that I would never deliver any arguments, but then you go always with "It's not". That is not an argument.

 

In case you don't know, which coefficient I mean: This game is overall accelerated. It's the ship speed times the coefficient.

For Yamato it's 27 knots x coefficient. For Balao it's 30 knots x coefficient.

 

Please link me the soruce, that the coefficient for SS marines is different than the planes/ships coefficient. I think it's 5.5 with knots including the transversion into km/h

 

33 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

claiming submarines in WWII moved at speeds

Please quote me, where I said, that irl second WW submarines moved that fast.

But reading that, no wonder... I think this discussion makes no sense, when about 90% of my statements get ignored and the rest misinterpretated.

 

35 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Because you're doing a proper WG by ignoring the actual facts, throwing in some sprinkles of unrelated stuff, and then lying about the fact that submarines move at the same relative speed as other classes. 

Maybe I wrote it bad, or you just didn't read it properly, I don't know, but this is wrong. I never said/meant it in that way. And don't come up with lying, that's the totally wrong word. Lying would mean, that I intentionally say the untruth. But I said the truth or my opinion, or even if something is somewhere not true, then it's not lying, that is making mistake. Like you do a lot currently by getting the wrong context. Wouldn't say you lie.

 

1. I said, that the coefficient is the same.

2. I explained, why the ship-stat "speed" of submarines must be higher with examples.

 

Shall I quote it, where I said that?

[mtm78]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I explained why, but it seems repeating the explanation doesn't make sense, since it gets ignored.

You can't explain why, besides accepting it is because WG changed the scaling coefficient in order to make them faster in game as in real life. 

 

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

In case you don't know, which coefficient I mean: This game is overall accelerated. It's the ship speed times the coefficient.

For Yamato it's 27 knots x coefficient. For Balao it's 30 knots x coefficient.

Yamato was 27kts yes....

 

But Balao is 20kts and 8kts (+-). Except in this game, because WG decided submarines in real life are to slow to have fun in their game. 

 

Now if you did Yamato, and say Iowa, you'd get numbers which would probably closely match their official specs. Same goes for any other ship, CV's included ( and no, complaining there are also paper ships means absolutely nothing ). 

 

There,. simple facts. Now you will go: ow but they made them faster in the game because of balance, and this is fine it's just personal preference that they break the universal time scaling and hence immersion. 

 

And yes, the ONLY part of this which is personal preference is me not wanting sci-fi thingies in a World of Warships game, even if you complain all you want about the consumables and so on not being realistic either. 

 

We used to play scenario's, long before you joined this forum I think, where we would reenact actual battles as closely as possible. That's the audience which WG was actively targeting both in marketing and in approaching to come and test for them. So excuse my disgust, I can't use another word, for WG now telling us submarines will go in the game and they will move at totally unrealistic speeds ( let alone the homing torpedoes which I won't even get into because it's a mute point and just a sign of why WG initially publicly stated they COULD NOT add submarines to the game, and it's again related to their usefulness and thus enjoyment of players and how submarines actually operated ). It's totally completely immersion breaking, personal opinion, fine, but it's also completely breaking the universal time scaling and this is a fact not an opinion not a preference but a fact. 

 

Now that this is hopefully finally understood, I will let you go on and say all the positive things you want about submarines and how you wish this game would be a Steel Ocean with better graphics. I will be disgusted by it, but I will support your right to say it to the death as they say. 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

You can't explain why, besides accepting it is because WG changed the scaling coefficient in order to make them faster in game as in real life. 

I think your issue is to distinguish between the speed coefficient and ship stats. You messed it up by mixing two different values.

All ships have the 5.5 coefficient for speed, as far I know. That is value type 1

Ships have stats in game like speed. Yamato has 27 knots, Balao in game has 30 knots. That is value type 2.

 

Value type 2 differs in case of Balao from the real value. While many other ships have more accurate value.

BUT all ships have the same coefficient.

I also was mentioning, that many other ships also reach values, that are not realistic. Planes are way slower. DDs are mostly all faster in their max speed. Maybe because it's an arcade game?

 

 

11 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Yamato was 27kts yes....

 

But Balao is 20kts and 8kts (+-). Except in this game, because WG decided submarines in real life are to slow to have fun in their game.

Here:

On 8/19/2021 at 3:40 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

In may sim-games you get time-acceleration. In pvp games like Steel Ocean or now in Warships the boats are faster than irl.

I tryed to show, that this is not a "WG" thing, but an issue in games. In (probably) every submarine game, you will have some way to skip the long waiting times of a submarine. By boat speed increase, by time speed increase or what's so ever. That's a common design decision, not a "fancy" WG idea.

I also said, that the submarines maybe should be a tiny bit slower. Though I think they still have to be faster than irl.

19 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

personal preference

dude. you said all the time, that it is your personal prefence. I quote you:

 

On 8/19/2021 at 4:05 PM, mtm78 said:

that is a personal preference I admit.

 

As I said, that is your phrasing, that you bring up over and over again.  And you keep going xD

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You come up all the time with the personal prefence, not me.

 

 

22 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

even if you complain all you want about the consumables and so on not being realistic either. 

I'm not complaining. I'm just telling you, that not only subs have different speeds like irl. Saying, that increased speed on submarines is wrong, but increased or decreased speed on ships and planes is right.

But this shows also, that you don't understand me, because you think, I'm complaining. No wonder, that you think, I have no "arguments", when I show up the facts of plane speeds, and ships max speed.

 

If the consumables don't count, then give submarines normal speeds and super speed consumables with +10 knots. Easy solution.

 

The sad thing is just, you seem still to ignore all my points and doesn't proof anything.

All the points not answered:

40 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Wasn't my one argument,

41 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

According to your logic, we have to buff the speed of the planes.

41 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

Except it is not.

Proof it.

42 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

claiming submarines in WWII moved at speeds

Please quote me, where I said,

 

 

 

[Gnomus]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Didn't compare it with smoke, though you also need to know, that DDs have speed for surviving.

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

DDs can also stay in safftey range, no idea, how you don't see that ;)

 

Some DD's do have speed. Some are hardly faster than subs. And subs have better stealth.

 

If/when DD stays at safe range his torps are quite easy to avoid.

Sub with homing torps from 5-2 km are much harder to avoid.

Sub with straight runners from 2-0,5 km are practically impossible to avoid.

 

How you don't see the difference? It's about balance between effectiveness and danger. DD has to choose, sub can have both of them, especially against ship with no ASW.

 

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Same counts for submarine, only in a different way

A BB can go for the cap, A submarine can try to torp him. A BB can outplay torps (DCP, Islands, maneuvers etc)

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

On 2km the submarine is spotted and loses ~2x DivCap. The submarine will probably not have double ping, Or it can be DCP'ed

On 2km they might even not home in case of a ping.

Also a BB can just move to the side of a Submarine, then it can torp.

 

There are many options, Though a DD on 2km will probably one hit a BB^^

 

It is strange how it seems BB's can't outplay DD unguided torps from long range, but should be able to do against sub torps from close range. Something doesn't compute here. DD that gets to 2 km from BB have taken a big risk. It's ok to be able to do a lot of damage. Sub staying untouchable at 2km has not taken the risk. See the difference?

 

Of course you can keep saying a BB can DCP incoming torpedoes. But that assumes he is not going to need it for HE spam from other ships. Or if BB presses DCP just for your fun. He is up again after 80 seconds, while subs reload in around 50 seconds. So he might avoid one salvo, but next one will do miracles to his citadel, and cause some flooding for 30 seconds. So great!

 

Of course BB can try to outmaneuver the sub. After all sub is just as fast as he is (less on Georgia, much faster versus Colorado, Vermont & co.), turns in around 50-75% smaller circle, reacts to turns faster and has better acceleration. Such fun "just maneuver and sail to subs side".

 

Of course there is option to wait out subs dive capacity. They can go up to 564 seconds with equipment, or 620 with skill. Then they can use emergency skill for 2x 30 second. Or 3x 36 second with skills. After that they can still stay 20 seconds below before forced surfacing. 620 seconds + 108 seconds + 20 seconds is quite a lot of waiting. Meanwhile that sub can torp you every 50 seconds. So only 15 times.... Good waiting there. Wait for 12,5 minutes and take 15 torpedo salvoes to your face. Then you can shoot back. This really is your solution to some BB/CA not having ASW weapons to make it balanced against subs?

 

Above numbers are pretty much maximum, but should you give idea of how stupid "just wait for dive capacity to end" really is.

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

The scenario is completly different. A submarine doesn't move with 40-50 knots and also splash damage doesn't do dmg to hull.

Different mechanics.

Aside that scenario, the DD maybe played back, if he gets spotted that close from a whole team.

But what I described is a max range scenario.

ASW-planes have 13km range, Only Balao has more range, but torping on max range is not always working.

An enemy sub just has to use the hydro, and then all the ships will drop bombs on the sub. It's Splash-bomb dmg vs a slow target.

Not comparable with gun fire against a fast target

 

So DD playing badly, or getting to difficult situation is all by his doing, but if sub get in similar bad situation it mush have "get out of jail card" because it would not be fair?

 

And which enemy sub we are talking about? If there is no enemy sub then sub can just go to operating depth, or even deep depth and he is pretty much safe.

And your problem is that BB 13 km away can harm sub, if that sub somehow gets spotted? 

 

Have you ever gotten hits to DD at 20+ km range when carrier spots enemy early in battle? Why DD being in danger is expected and counts to nothing, but subs should be free of counter play if someone spots him close to several enemy ships? Something doesn't compute here.

 

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

So you want nerf the BBs, that already have ASW? That would mean, a BB can drop their stuff, but it won't kill him anyways. It would be overall a nerf to ASW

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

A single BB can kill a sub with ASW, and you want give that to all BBs and cruisers. That makes a sub unplayable. Because it's not that hard to use ASW and if there are like 4-8 bomber attacks, no SS can survive that.

Or might it just be that ships that have ASW could keep what ever they have. 

Then you pick ships that have no ASW weapons and give then 1/4 to 1/2 of DD level depth charges.

 

Why go for "but then every BB could drop on me at 13 km" or "but then every BB would lose their ASW bombers" when you could just do minor correction to those who are totally left out?

 

Would it be really game breaking that sub could not sail under a BB (or CA) for minutes without any fear?

Shouldn't there be some danger if sub manages to get sailed over by a BB? How bad such sub should be?

 

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

You compare T10 SS with T8 DDs.

You forget about engine boost of DDs.

And there are also way faster DDs

Take the T8 SS and compare those with T10s ;)

 

As I said, SS are the slowest class aside BBs

 

You also don't understand, what I mean with low range. High range is 18+km, mid range is maybe around ~15km. 14km is almost mid range, but well, thats really the max, mostly you can't torp on 14km unless the target is moving towards the sub

 

The thing is with DDs is, they often have low/mid range, but htey also have the speed

Submarines have the COMBINATION of LOW RANGE (Range of DDs) and SLOW SPEED (speed level of fast BBs)

 

Thank you for asking. Salmon is doing 31 knots on surface at T8. So many DD's have only 2-4 knot advantage on her.

Also subs have DD level turning circles. Some bigger DD's even have 100-200m larger turning than DD's. 

 

Some DD's are faster, but then they all need to survive enemy fire while detected by a sub. Even with 40 knots vs 30 knots it will take a lot of time for DD to gain 5-6 km so it can drop depth charges on a sub. With 35 vs 30 it twice the time...

 

Subs are only slightly slower than slow end of DD's. (Kleber, Khaba etc. are exceptions)

Subs are on par with slower cruisers. Many are doing little over 30 knots and very few cruiser are going 35+ knots. 

Subs are faster than BB's. Georgia is faster, but then there are Coloraro, Vermont, Fuso, Nagato etc. that are slower than subs. 

So you can't really talk about "low speed". 

 

With their speed boost up Balao can do 33,35 underwater and U-2501 35,65 underwater. Slow? Really?

 

And what is this nonsense about "low range"? Germans subs have 9, 10 and 11 km range. US subs 11,5, 12,5 and 14 km range.

Half the DD's are jealous about those ranges and other half is equal.

 

If we look at DD's with over 12km torp range we have Elbing (13,5 km, with 50 knot speed), Yueyang (13,5 km deepwater), Östergotland (13,5 km), Halland (15 km), Gearing (and Somers 16,5 km) and Shimakaze (20 km, that nobody should use).

 

Can you explain how subs are "low range"?

 

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

so a 30 knot SS chases a 27 knot Yamato? 3 knot difference? That will take a long while.

 

Yes, if Yamato starts from out of torp range and is sailing away.

 

Lets turn this around and give a BB all the advantages, except initial spotting.

 

Iowa is one of fastest BB's (33 knots, only Georgia or Frenchies with speed boost are faster). Heading away from a sub, so we do need to think about time it take to turn, bleed speed and regaining it. So this is "perfect BB escape" situation. Fastest BB on most suitable position.

 

Balao is at 4 km distance on periscope depth (2,2 km spot normally), and pings (spot  4 km) just a second too early (so not from 4,1 km), so he is seen by Iowa. Iowa starts to sail away to save himself.  

 

Iowa needs to gain 10 km distance to be safe from 14 km torps. While torps are moving (89/93 knots depending on equipment) to 14 km range Iowa is moving also, se he gains around 5 km by the time torps reach max range. In short Iowa has 4 km head start, and after reaching 9 km range torps launched won't reach him anymore. He needs to survive while getting 5 more kilometers distance.  

 

He is gaining 4 knots (33 knots vs 29 knots) all the time (lest just forget slow acceleration and speed bleed on every avoiding maneuver to make this easier for a BB).

We know that 1 knot speed over 1 second gains 0,0026 km (we know 70 knot torpedoes does take 10,43 seconds to cover 1,9 km distance, calculate from that). Every second distance between Iowa and Balao increases by 0,01041 km, so lets say 0,01 to keep this clean.

 

It takes 500 seconds, or 8,3 minutes to gain that 5 km distance to safety. Meanwhile Balao has managed to fire 10 salvoes of torps, or 13 if Balao is fitted out for short reload (and this doesn't include adrenaline rush).

 

This was "the perfect BB escape". Sounds fun?

 

 

Now tell what something like 21 knot Colorado can do? Or even BB doing 28-30 knots. Subs are faster, turn faster and in smaller circle, accelerate faster, and of course can go below surface to hide. Their torps are homing so avoiding them on slow unmaneuverable ships is hard, or they can torp safely from close distance. Then add that some BB's (German, Italian, Russian) have no way of harming them while they stay underwater.

 

 

 

So let's recap: 

• Subs are not slow. Only medium or fast DD's or fast cruisers have meaningful advantage on them.
• Subs are maneuverable. Their turning circles are DD level and rudder times on par with bad DD or good CL/CA.
• Their torpedoes are as good as Swedish DD torps. Nothing to shame there.
• They can shoot torps as non-homing avoiding all the "but homing has disadvantages too" thigs. If they want they can use homing with big bonuses.
• They have good camo, but lose spotting when going below.
• They are relatively safe underwater, even when spotted. ASW planes can touch them, DD's and CL's need to get over them to do harm (good luck there if sub didn't overextend or was not last alive).
• Their diving capacity go from 6 minutes + 20 seconds (or 6,6 minutes + 60/108 seconds + 20 seconds) to 10,3 minutes + 60/108 seconds + 20 seconds on T10. Good luck waiting for sub to come to surface, while you are taking torps from the said sub and fire from other enemies. 

 

And you complain that not all ships should have some way of damaging them when they are underwater?

Like half the BB/CA's (other half already have ASW weapons) being able to drop some depth charges on them if subs goes below them would make subs totally unplayable?

 

I see no logic here. Other than finding constant excuses why subs should not be touched.

 

 

[mtm78]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If the consumables don't count, then give submarines normal speeds and super speed consumables with +10 knots. Easy solution.

 

It would be yes, except WG doesn't because they would have to make the consumable permanent because without it active players wouldn't want to play submarines. See the problem?

 

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I think your issue is to distinguish between the speed coefficient and ship stats.

No I don't think so, I think you're purposefully not understanding what I write because you don't like not having an actual argument to counter it other then 'tough luck, it's just your preference that you want realistic speeds'.

 

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The sad thing is just, you seem still to ignore all my points and doesn't proof anything.

I'm not going to, and I already have. 

 

Balao real speeds are 8kts and 20kts, not 30kts. You already proven me right, you just don't want to accept it. 

 

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Value type 2 differs in case of Balao from the real value. While many other ships have more accurate value.

BUT all ships have the same coefficient.

 

No, All OTHER SHIPS have a more accurate value, EXCEPT ALL SUBMARINES. And that is the issue. And I can't be more clear, and you can write walls of text however you want, it's not changing the fact submarines break immersion when added in a game where they move 50% faster as in real life ( and that's on the surface, not sure what speed it has underwater in game ). 

 

All your 'questions' and talking around this single simple fact is nothing but deflection and rehashed WG PR bull. Which you're free to believe, just as you're free to feel immersed in this version of World of Warships like how you liked Steel Ocean. I'm not feeling immersed when even talking about these mechanics, let alone the frustration I would feel in game actually experiencing it.