General Submarines related discussions

[FellRaven]

12 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I mentioned every feedback, that we should get the equivalent of AP and HE shells for submarines

-Slow, short range, high alpha damg torps (unguided)

-fast, long range, low aplpha damage torps (guided)

 

The guided is the equivalent of "harder to avoide" just like HE. HE is very hard to avoide. The short range torpedos are the high damage "AP"s, once in range and very close, they can be devestating

I did say as others have suggested repeatedly but I would disagree about guided I really think they are a terrible idea

[mtm78]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And well, there was at least one battle, were submarines lurked for retreating ships.

 

YES! Finally! You got it, they were there to hunt stragglers... after the battle.

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's still a team-pvp game and not a realstic strategic naval battle game.

1. WG claims this isn't a team based game because they say mechanics which can only be countered by teamplay are toxic... well unless the solution is marketable through the premium shop and new pixels for people to buy.

2. You surely haven't seen the same commercials I have, or heard those sponsorship messages in YT video's saying literally that this is a historically accurate game. 

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I explained, how... and also, why we won't get it. But if you skip that... :P

You explained nothing, you did a WG you talked about irrelvant things as if they were related and somehow they offered an explanation.

 

Submarines can not be put into the same time scaling as the other classes, and this is the main cohesion giving aspect of the game. Remove that, remove any possible immersion. 

 

There, now please explain why this is wrong without claiming: ow that's your preference. 

 

8 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Dunno I played first Steel Ocean and changed from there to Warships. Though I played Steel Ocean 100s of hours. I think around ~500. Steel Ocean had some good mechanics, but overall worse quality. The spotting for example was actually more fun, but also more complex and chaotic

This would explain a lot. 

[Gvozdika]

I'll also add my feedback based on ranked. Subs are so mind-bogglingly boring to play that I struggle to see the appeal once the novelty factor wears off. 

They also make for a frustrating class to play against - because you effectively have an invisible sniper that can (and will - see one of my prior threads on the subject with evidence to prove) one-shot a lot of the lighter ships in the game with a single salvo. This is mainly the DDs and CLs - e.g. the submarine's main counter.

 

However the REAL problems are with what effect they have on the games. 

 

1) They effectively waste player slots which makes the games feel more empty. Ranked with 2x subs per side is now basically 5 v 5 ships. The muppets in subs are just dragging their knuckles around underneath the surface 'somewhere over there'. No clue what they're doing.... they might as well be on a different map half the time. I've yet to run out of dive cap and the later tiers allow you to boost the capacity further to nearly 10 minutes if undetected with skills, upgrades and use of consumables. No need to ever really pop up into harms way....  

 

2) Subs actually discourage forward movements in larger ships. Why can I say this with certainty? Because one of the effects of homing torps is that evading them is best done by TURNING AWAY from them rather than INTO the tracks like with a conventional unguided spread. So you end up with people being chased by homing torps further and further away from the action. Combine this with the need to use DCP to remove a ping effect and you probably don't want to be pushing in where additional fires/floods/knocked out modules become a thing. Well done WG!

 

3) Related note. The campers at the back who aren't pushing just camp harder. They are singularly UNAFFECTED by submarines and indeed hard camping is probably one of the best tactics in countering the class - after all - why go to them when you can force them come to you. I'm sure everyone is THRILLED that camping is encouraged further....

 

4) Sub's role. What actually is it's job? It cannot tank. It can't contest or fight for caps. It can't really spot all that well. It's just there to deal damage with those stupid disney-magic-torps. At least a CV (while being a hateful thing that no human being should ever admit to playing) has the impact of being able to influence games for better or for worse. A sub is just a damage-farmer and a pretty boring one at that.  You get a few of these on a team and you're basically down some actual surface ships that can contribute to the game. Like those muppets who always play as snipers in a FPS and sit at the back - they don't actually DO anything - they just camp and chase some numbers on a scoreboard. They also usually fail hard at it and I think subs will be no different.

 

5) Playing 'spot the sub'. Now the spotting underwater mechanics are possibly the most counter-intuitive and confusing there are. Hydro cannot see subs if they pass an arbitrary limit of 40+ metres - so a sub at operating depth can sort of pop up and down past this threshold at will and appear/disappear at will. So if you have a sub left and you're trying to find them - good luck as you spend several minutes going round in circles trying to find him. They're probably AFK and sat at the bottom of the map somewhere waiting for the clock to time out. Related to point 1 - if you spec a sub correctly you can stay hidden for a HEFTY CHUNK of the match. 

 

So WG - subs are a bad idea in general and particularly bad in their current form. They'll appeal to the lowest common denominator and even then they'll probably die of boredom before finishing a session of matches. They bring nothing to the table. They do not improve the game or player experience in any way. They are a laughable waste of developer time and WG money. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Xinyon]

Why submarines only available with rng and for a rent period instead of able to buy it? It makes no sense. It's available for test but we can't test it because accessibility is full rng. Co-op barely matters because u can only test it seriously on ranked, and you need to luck out that specific tier from rng.

[Pikkozoikum]

59 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

YES! Finally! You got it, they were there to hunt stragglers... after the battle.

But that's what we kinda do. Submarines lurk for the easy targets. And we have to consider, it's an arcade game, not a simulation. We don't have "battles" like irl in this game.

 

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

1. WG claims this isn't a team based game because they say mechanics which can only be countered by teamplay are toxic... well unless the solution is marketable through the premium shop and new pixels for people to buy.

Would like to see that source of that claim.

Also I said team game. Not High team-support-coordinated game. A Team game is where a team fights another team. How well they play together has nothing to do with the mode.

Is there 1 team vs another team? Team game.

 

 

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

2. You surely haven't seen the same commercials I have, or heard those sponsorship messages in YT video's saying literally that this is a historically accurate game. 

Well, I'm just realistic about that. Or do you say, that those commercials are more true than what I said about that? ;)

Is that what you think?

 

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

There, now please explain why this is wrong without claiming: ow that's your preference. 

You brought it up and said it's your personal prefence, not my words, I just repeated those words.

 

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

Submarines can not be put into the same time scaling as the other classes, and this is the main cohesion giving aspect of the game. Remove that, remove any possible immersion. 

Not sure what you mean with time scaling?

 

 

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

This would explain a lot. 

Good I guess ;P

But it'S true, if people make different experience, they are also judging different. Do you know Dark Souls? Many Dark Souls veterans say that DS2 is worst. But that's mostly because of nostalgia and how they started with DS1. I started with DS2 and I loved it. I don't have the DS1 to DS2 experience. I later played DS1 though

[Corocotta15]

I just played a coulpe of ranked battles. Subs change completely the spirit of the game. 

[FellRaven]

21 minutes ago, Xinyon said:

Why submarines only available with rng and for a rent period instead of able to buy it? It makes no sense. It's available for test but we can't test it because accessibility is full rng. Co-op barely matters because u can only test it seriously on ranked, and you need to luck out that specific tier from rng.

 

To limit there availability so you don't have everyone trying to play them at once

 

[mtm78]

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Not sure what you mean with time scaling?

You got to be kidding me.....

 

My BB says it's going 27kts all game, or +- you know have to use wasd a lot... yet the distance covered in the after game display is saying I must have spend days travelling at that speed....

 

Which is time compression, which you say is in all games... and it is, universally shared amongst players. Not, ow this class would be boring with such a slow time scale, let's make it faster. You can do that with any game off course, but you'll remove any reference.

 

And yes, you liking Steel Ocean does show me how WG is listening to feedback from players I wished would have stuck with that game instead of trying to ruin this one.

 

25 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You brought it up and said it's your personal prefence, not my words, I just repeated those words.

Useless.. YOUR whole blahblahblah you write down is YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE as well. The difference is my preference has an explanation, as does yours but you're not ready to blatantly admit you like submarines and think they should be in the game BECAUSE YOU LIKE THEM, nothing more nothing less. 

 

[Xinyon]

9 minutes ago, FellRaven said:

 

To limit there availability so you don't have everyone trying to play them at once

 

Probably there are ppl who just dont want to play them, also there is a limit in a game for them so they would just sit in que. Just went 2 ranked in a row and didnt see a single sub

[tsounts]

Really bad... Not enjoying it at all, 5 matches and all 5 were utterly bad, managed to win one, all the rest where a crap fiesta.  Ranked has become even worst.

[dreambill]

Subs are awful and destroying any fun that has left into the game.

Very boring playing them, very annoying playing other classes with or against them.

Make a dedicated game mode for them - since you are so stubborn and you will never completely remove them - and leave the standard ones (Ranked -Random) free of this abomination.

[1MajorKoenig]

Haha I had a Ranked game today with a Bayern against two subs.
 

Boy that sucks

[Sadism]

PUT THESE DAM SUBS IN RANDOM GAMES, I GONNA FIND ANOTHER GAME. Please, no need to reply back cause I won't be reading reply. I know how some like to be keyboard warriors.

[FellRaven]

Open question is there any reason to play German U Boats over US Submarines?

 

[Panzer_Guido]

when was the last time you actally saw a KW ship/boat that was actually good for her tier?

[Camperdown]

Sorry folks, WG is committed to forcing this through our throats. They will rather destroy the game than give up.

[Vudd2473]

I won't talk about balancing, whether submarines are too strong or too weak. I'll leave that to everyone else. My issue with them is that they are not a fun addition to the game. The various interactions between surface ships is what makes the game fun. Creating plays, getting into good positions, making successful pushes, that's fun. Cornering a destroyer as a cruiser is fun. Watching an unsuspecting ship catch a salvo of torpedoes as a destroyer is fun. Devastating a cruiser in close quarters as a battleship is fun. Holding a flank, contesting an important capture point, helping your team deal with a difficult enemy ship, those things are fun. Outplaying other players is fun. Dealing with submarines is not fun, even for the ships that are meant to counter them. The interaction between submarines and the other ship types in this game is one-dimensional and boring. There is no outplaying a submarine. Sinking a submarine does not feel rewarding. They are a pesky presence in whatever game they are in, and moreover, they occupy the slot of a surface ship.

 

I don't think the game needs more ships with which you can't interact or deal with in any sort of meaningful way. I don't intend to go all melancholic, but I wish the developers would look back to the game they created six years ago and that started all this. Nobody got into this game to play submarines. Does the addition of submarines make the game more fun? Is this the best way forward for the game right now? Sometimes I am convinced that Wargaming is doing all they can to run this game into the ground and to alienate the community, but I might very well be in the minority for feeling this way. I am open to the idea that I might not be the player that Wargaming wishes to cater to, in spite of the fact that I have been around for a while. Perhaps I ought to find something new.

 

[tsounts]

 

[admiraldelorin]

On 8/15/2021 at 5:20 PM, JohnMac79 said:

You just failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo

From December 1941 to November 1943 the Mark 14 and the destroyer-launched Mark 15 torpedo had numerous technical problems that took almost two years to fix.

https://militaryhistoryonline.com/WWII/MarkXIVTorpedo
 

need more sources?

[admiraldelorin]

To all the naysayers... we're at version 0.10.7   Version 0  (zero)and even when it has been zero since 6 years, In my RL world that means still open to change, not finished.  Also since 6 years there have been monthly updates, new ships, new game modes. Every new ship logically has to be better then the last, why else get it?  You thought you were buying into a a static game where you can play the same game for years to come, really ?   That is like thinking "free to play" is like "free beer". You will have noticed that you have to put in time or other resources, but not the continuous development and change?

All you are saying is that you can't deal with it. In the end it is only your opinion, no more, no less.  I am sure the owners are monitoring their revenue streams. If you don't like what you see, just walk like you talk.

You do not like submarines.. that is fine, I don't like battle ships that shoot 30 km and miss half the time.

 

You could have asked for a "no submarine" mode, but instead you want to deny all of us that understand submarines to be ships of war, just like WWI torpedo boats or 21 st century guided weapon command frigates with 2000 nautical mile  radar range and ballistic intercept capability. 

 

[Tanaka_15]

Well i will live my feedback.

 

PLS: Remove this crap from game.

 

THNx. 

[Mork77]

Played two battles with Tier VIII subs. Find them operating ok above water. 

 

my two cents. 

 

a) reduce the speed, both above and underwater to near historical levels.

b) make spotting with active sonar only available to tier X. before that. visual is necessary ( surfaced or periscope); homing torpedos are ok.

c) in turn, make spotting dived subs ( below periscope depth) more difficult ( you need sonar activated) 

d) reduce the number of subs to max. 1 in Coop and ranked, 2 in random. 

e) since you plan to introduce convoys, how about a special sub vs. destroyer convoy battle?  maybe 10 transports, 5 DDs on one team, 5 subs on the other. 

Or, like Sprockett said, make it players against the AI escorts. even better.

f) do not force players to use damage control to "unping" your ship. add an extra button for that. timer can be similar to damage control.

 

Personally, I think that subs should not be added at all. but they will come no matter what. 

[Sprockett]

e) since you plan to introduce convoys, how about a special sub vs. destroyer convoy battle?  maybe 10 transports, 5 DDs on one team, 5 subs on the other. 

 

 

I think this, Wolf Pack subs on AI convoy, with a DD/CL convoy screen, on ocean map - objective is to get convoy across map, less than 50% AI ship survival is a loss of the DD/CL team and a win for SUBS

[mtm78]

1 hour ago, admiraldelorin said:

To all the naysayers... we're at version 0.10.7   Version 0  (zero)and even when it has been zero since 6 years, In my RL world that means still open to change, not finished.  Also since 6 years there have been monthly updates, new ships, new game modes. Every new ship logically has to be better then the last, why else get it?  You thought you were buying into a a static game where you can play the same game for years to come, really ?   That is like thinking "free to play" is like "free beer". You will have noticed that you have to put in time or other resources, but not the continuous development and change?

All you are saying is that you can't deal with it. In the end it is only your opinion, no more, no less.  I am sure the owners are monitoring their revenue streams. If you don't like what you see, just walk like you talk.

You do not like submarines.. that is fine, I don't like battle ships that shoot 30 km and miss half the time.

 

You could have asked for a "no submarine" mode, but instead you want to deny all of us that understand submarines to be ships of war, just like WWI torpedo boats or 21 st century guided weapon command frigates with 2000 nautical mile  radar range and ballistic intercept capability. 

 

Hey Shill!

 

We did ask for no submarine mode, it's called World of Warships. Submarines are welcome, limited to scenario gameplay.

 

'You do not like submarines.. that is fine, I don't like battle ships that shoot 30 km and miss half the time.'

 

Yeah well hit ratio's on ships IN REAL LIFE were much worse. Some people actually cared about this a bit, but I see you're the influx we got after CBT ended. 

 

And all your WG pr you're shilling for, WG MARKETED this towards it being a semi realistic game, and PROMISED us early players they wouldn't try and push in submarines which they will be unable to balance, just because some whales want to buy premium submarines.

 

' 21 st century guided weapon command frigates with 2000 nautical mile  radar range and ballistic intercept capability. ' 

 

Yes, and these HAVE NO PLACE IN THIS GAME EITHER. 

 

Jezus....

[Gvozdika]

To the fans of subs - all 2 of you. Allow me to put to you a scenario that illustrates the absurdity of submarines in WOWS. Let us say I'm going to introduce to the game a new special DD. 

 

- It is going to be roughly twice as fast as historically - so a speed of 80 knots. 

 

- It can launch guided ship to ship missiles that will account for lead and track their targets through their flightpath. These missiles will also be fast and usually citadel their targets while having a reasonably rapid reload.

 

- At a press of a button it will be immune to detection aside from proximity spotting - even then only other special DDs will be able to see it. 

 

- Despite being a surface ship it will be immune to radar detection at a press of a button - because reasons. 

 

- 2/3 of the time it will be invulnerable to most of the enemy team. Only a select few ships will have means of shooting it even when it is spotted and sat right in front of them. Even CVs (that great mollycoddled class). 

 

- It will retain the concealment values of a small DD and the incredibly small target silhouette.

 

- It cannot however cap while in it 'invulnerable state - so it'll be fine.

 

- The ship will be balanced by WGs balancing department - with a view to encouraging as many sales as possible early on.

 

Answer me this. Would you be happy with ships like that being added to the game? Can you possibly see some of the issues that will occur as a result?

Because THAT is precisely what you are asking for when it comes to subs. 

 

You then have the temerity to wonder why people are dead set against the idea...