General Submarines related discussions

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, arcticstorm123 said:

So, just had this happen, ok so it's early 8:50am CET but 5 dd's, 2 subs, 1BB, and a CV, one of the most boring games ever, but can't say I blame people, cruisers may have depth charges but they aren't nearly as nimble as dd's where subs are concerned.

I am regrinding Haragumo (again) so subs had not a lot to do with my choice (although they did factor in the choice), subs are certainly affecting the choices people are making, limit dd's and I think you will see non sub areas get an improvement in popularity 

On the test servers, cruisers were a very good choice, because of all the DDs. And once the surface ships are killed, the cruisers could go for the submarines easily

 

[arcticstorm123]

17 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

On the test servers, cruisers were a very good choice, because of all the DDs. And once the surface ships are killed, the cruisers could go for the submarines easily

 

But there you go, so the presence of so many dd's influenced your choice to play a cruiser, but the ship type was already skewed to dd on the test systems.

 

People have been complaining about too many bb's in games leading up to this, but now bb's are becoming an endangered species in co op, maybe cruisers too.

 

Before this I was grinding Zara, and I must admit I seemed to spend most of the end game trying to catch up to that last remaining bot sub in the game, again not a fun experience pretty boring

 

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, arcticstorm123 said:

But there you go, so the presence of so many dd's influenced your choice to play a cruiser, but the ship type was already skewed to dd on the test systems.

 

People have been complaining about too many bb's in games leading up to this, but now bb's are becoming an endangered species in co op, maybe cruisers too.

 

Before this I was grinding Zara, and I must admit I seemed to spend most of the end game trying to catch up to that last remaining bot sub in the game, again not a fun experience pretty boring

 

That is how a Meta is forming.Once, when Kleber was released, it was a very strong pick on CBs and you had sometimes these 4, or 5 Kleber teams.

 

But in this case it's actually not because of balance, it's more the early hype and testing. If somenone wants test something, he will play the new stuff or the counter.

 

When submarines get released, it might take a few weeks, until it stabilzes back to normal. Though maybe even faster, since they are available on live server now. Maybe that lowers the hype, when they actually get released

[arcticstorm123]

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That is how a Meta is forming.Once, when Kleber was released, it was a very strong pick on CBs and you had sometimes these 4, or 5 Kleber teams.

 

But in this case it's actually not because of balance, it's more the early hype and testing. If somenone wants test something, he will play the new stuff or the counter.

 

When submarines get released, it might take a few weeks, until it stabilzes back to normal. Though maybe even faster, since they are available on live server now. Maybe that lowers the hype, when they actually get released

It's going to depend on how quickly subs are introduced, what you are effectively saying is people need to get bored with subs and go back to playing normally, which I don't doubt will happen, but it will depend on how much game balance will be influenced in the long term once it settles down and the novelty effect dies off, and how many hard core sub players we end up with.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, arcticstorm123 said:

It's going to depend on how quickly subs are introduced, what you are effectively saying is people need to get bored with subs and go back to playing normally, which I don't doubt will happen, but it will depend on how much game balance will be influenced in the long term once it settles down and the novelty effect dies off, and how many hard core sub players we end up with.

But that's how a hype works. It's new, people want try it, until it's less new and they realize, that they prefer other ships. Has nothing specifically to do with submarines, but with new stuff. You can see that with the CV Rework as well. And you see that with the release of the game in the player numbers.

[General_Alexus]

19 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

...but they are. Bad DDs

 

And the rest of the post you explain why they are (with homing torps forcing BBs to decide between Damagecon to prevent Citas or dmg-con to prevent perma floods) in fact way better in dealing with BBs than a DD could ever do.

Just looking at the BB que numbers, I cant help with having no compassion to the BB playerbase. They demand having it easy all the time, meanwhile they deleate crusers left and right through the nose because of overmatch.

Maybe a BB left alone by his DD screen or a cruiser with hydro "should" be dead quickly the same as you would demand any day of the week a CL/CA giving broadside should be deleated in one salvo?

In the old days we had RTS CVs for that, lone BBs were dead in one attack with subsequent DBs setting fires on repared floods.

Nowadays, on many maps, DDs cant even reach the BBs anymore and they have so many tasks (capping, spotting, hunting DDs) anyway that farming BBs becomes the task of a game already won through other means.

Having a specilized BB hunter is in my opinion what the game needs, the devs agree and went for it, we can discuss the means of doing so but as you wrote it up beautifully in your post: it seems like they alrady did a great job.

[Huzid]

so, choice: dd are finally available, so I want to try them.

i note another choice: many people are playing co-op to get experience against subs.

 

my 2-cents: learning mech. of subs, but not real game play because the real play ships kill the co-op bots freq before the sub can even get there.

 

I am having fun - but wonder what color of fun when it is really player versus player.

[Westie77]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:33 PM, Jackson_4c said:

This is my first submarine test. I really enjoyed.
I started with Destroyers hunt for submarines with depth charges. I just see one bug when submarine died (just visible on the top team bar as no more subs) the red target pointer while line and the white circle still was visible not removed.
I hit/killed submarine with depth charges from destroyer and also with the warship attacking planes.
When attacking with destroyer could be interesting if we can set 2 or 3 depth value like low, medium, deep and somehow try determine where is the submarine. In real life that is the sonar ping used by ships. But we use those for submarine attacking not problem for me.
About Warship attacking planes what is missing for me how to rotate those area just I can send them out in star direction point from the warship to the distance. So if example submarine going parallel with me hard to hit. More easier when they try to attack me. I was able attack parallel a another warship with main guns and the attacking airplanes send to close submarine from about 45degree difference due the timing between reload gun and attack planes was close to each other. Both have successful hits registered. 

I also hit subs with heat guns. That was easy job due he is just start descent when I shoot below water. That is could be interesting when you hunt a submarine with destroyer into shallow water and attack them with gun. Just ships unable detect sea deep level nor visible in map.
We attacked one submarine with two destroyer: I was the second to about 300meter behind the first. That was cool/good if he makes error (like sub try escape to right) I made correction and he is unable to avoid my charges. So two cooperating destroyer easily kill a submarine.

When I played with submarine. 1-2 game was necessary to learn mechanics after that I getting be a real danger for any cruiser or warships.
Nice story: When a cruiser would like attack me arrive direct to me and I was about 20meter. I shoot a pair of torpedoes and pinging him then he turn back run away and I hunting them until near end of the game area and died finally. 
Double ping I think fine in that actual implementation. If the target cruiser maneuvering hard to hit same sector again. That was also very nice to see if the cruiser was smart enough to totally change direction so I see their left side pinged and then turn as right visible I need to make the ping again, but if not lucky torpedoes run away meanwhile.
What is not 100% clean the depth charges avoidance. With enable 80meters with button T can goes down where they unable hit me. Of course just on those cases if not on shallow waters. But when I was about 20-45meter distance had a battle when totally not see depth charges exploded around the ship but hit registered.

I am not running to any issue related to battery out limits. If small just set to 1/4 speed and charge back. That is not a reality. I can make full 15min battle without ever go up to surface. Surface recharging (fresh air) least 1-2 times per full battle I think not a big deal. Example they can keep below the water but need to go up to surface if would like recharge batteries for for few seconds. All of the submarines was distance limited in water except nuclear ones. That is also give possibility to surface ship as detect them and shoot with guns.
I think more gameplay necessary with batteries just limited speed not enough. They could be totally running out of battery (need to keep quite in deep water and unable escape like destroyer blocking him) and need to go up vertically like they to only with ballast.

What else not clean for me how the airplanes (not the warship attack planes) from carrier could be a danger to submarine. Why is carrier unable drop depth charges for the attacking submarine. At the moment the carrier vs. submarine not a balanced fight. I just see carriers running away if they can. I also attacked carrier with submarine on surface and not need to afraid about their airplanes.

 

Surface ships gives me too many information about ships in map. In real life if you submerge you have just your own info. Isn't be better if I need to up to 6 meters as get the ships position over ship radios?

 

Submarine vs. submarine battle:
- We made in about 20-30meter deep. Only problem was when we going around circle unable to turn after each other. Is it quicker turn if slow down? My enemy running into trouble as shallow water need to ascend up.

 

My best results with subs:

- send out (hunting) a cruiser to map edge with my submarine,
- 8 hits with torpedoes in single battle,
- killed a warship with my torpedo and a cruiser with fire (I think also caused by torpedo) in same battle

- killing submarine with submarine who is meanwhile afraid about my team destroyer :)
I am a dangerous submarine captain :)

I totally agree with your point sub v sub that when attacking and both turning it’s very hard to get into a firing postion due to turning circle and slow turning speeds. 

[Gnomus]

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

It's a tactic, when you explain your gameplay in a specific scenario. We were talking about counter-measurements like Radar, ASW, not how to deal with an enemy, when this is not available. Aside that, there are tactics to deal with a submarine as well, if no counter measurements are available.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Radar does no dmg, but it's still the same relation.

 

Ship gets a counter measurement to deal with specific encounters.

Radar ships get radar to deal with hidden enemies in range (DDs).

ASW ships get ASW armament to deal with submerged submarines.

 

Radar and hydro are consumables that help you do damage. They do not deal with hidden enemies.

Smoke, damage control and repair parties help you keep your ship floating. 

Guns, torpedoes and ASW are weapons used to harm enemy. They are not "counter measures". They are things that go BOOM!, and every ship needs things that go BOOM!

 

With close to 10 minutes dive capacity subs are untouchable to ships without ASW. If you want to compare it to DD smoke, smoke last only a fraction of it and ship in smoke can still be harmed. Totally different things.

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Other wise, I'm free to go to the training room with you, you play BB and I play DD, and you try to hit me.

 

If it's only about to have the ability to hit, no matter if it makes sense or not, then we could give everyone DCs with 1 dmg.

The ability would be given, but it would be as much relevant, as it will be for guns to hit a DD without intel

 

It's not about hitting totally unseen ship. It is about control of battle and risk versus influence.

 

If DD want to stay hidden, then BB can still force it out of important area (like cap). If DD want to harm BB unseen it need's to shoot torps with 30-60 second arrival time giving skilled BB plenty of time to avoid (most) damage. If DD want to make it torpedoes more dangerous it has to come inside spotting range and risk getting hit.

 

Sub against BB/CA without ASW weapons can stay at good firing position and safely farm away. You really don't see the difference?

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

And what will you do as BB, when a DD is around you? Shooting randomly around? It's almost the same encounter, the DD will also torp the BB and don't tell me, that you always win against DDs in your BB and dodge always all the torps ;P

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

no, mostly it doesn't lose effectiveness, because that's the strength of a DD. Fast speed, good concealment -> Moves close to a BB ~7-8 km and drops the torps in suprise.

Did you never do that to a BB in a DD?

 

If DD gives indication of it's position, he hides in smoke or cap is running, he can be targeted. I have even seen hits based on expected direction and ship getting spotted. It might be inefficient, but it is there. Why such "inefficient" method should be unavailable to all ships against subs and subs need total immunity to damage against them?

 

Have you ever dropped torpedoes 7-8 km from BB, and missed? I have. Lot of times. 

 

BB doesn't always dodge torpedoes. Sometimes I have managed to outwit my self and make "unexpected" turn, right into the torpedo salvo. I have also avoided torpedoes plenty of times when DD have tried to torp out of spot. That's why I have said DD's lose effectiveness. If they can drop from 2 km they are very hard to avoid. With no ASW weapons sub doesn't need to stay away and lose effectiveness, but can get as close as he wants and make those sure to hit shots.

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

And yet you can hit Submarines with torpedos and guns.

 

Only when they are on surface or periscope depth. With close to 10 minutes dive capacity it is a lot of time to wait defenselessly for subs dive capacity to end while he is torping you freely.

 

If such situation seems good for you I expect you to agree on surface ships having similar "I can't be harmed for x minutes" buttons. Seems reasonable, doesn't it?

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

Imagine everyone gets ASW. Now you have 2 bbs and one heavy crusier. Sub gets spotted. Everyone launches ASW, sub dead.

Submarines would be unplayable. Or you nerf all the ASW planes, and then you will complain, that a single BB can't kill a submarine. ;)

 

Imagine destroyer getting spotted 5-8 km from 2 BB and CA. Everyone shoots at DD, DD dead. DD's would be unplayable.

 

Danger is already there for other ships. Why should subs have free pass?

 

Or have you considered possibility of giving BB's 1/4 to 1/2 of ASW power of DD's. Now sub get spotted, but is still kilometers away from BB's and he sails away. But if he gets spotted below BB he will get some damage and he might want to get somewhere else, instead of staying below and torping BB for next 5 minutes totally safe. 

 

Giving every ships some ASW capability would not make subs unplayable. It would just deny them free farm against certain ships. Not even against certain classes, just some individual ships that have been denied any ASW capability.

 

Why do you keep assuming that "giving any ships ASW capability" will mean every ship getting ASW bombers? Or enough depth charges to obliterate 100% sub in seconds? 

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

No, influence is not reduced, that's the playstyle of DDs. That's how they play. They stay in their positions, where they are effective. 

And you say, that unguided torpedos are something bad. They have advantages over the homing.

-Way more max dmg

-Don't need to hit citadell for max dmg

-Can't be trolled by guiding into islands

-Can't be countered by using DCP (not talking about flooding)

-Pinging also shows the direction of the torps, even if not in spotting range

 

Those unguided torpedos work pretty fine ;)

 

DD that sails next to you "to drop torpedoes to your deck" will do massive damage to any ship and mostly one shot anyone. To do that he needs to expose himself. 

DD that never get's within spotting range is much lesser danger. If you play wisely you can avoid most torpedo salvoes totally or just take some torpedoes when it is unavoidable.

 

Same should be true for subs. If they stay away and hidden then their fire should be less effective. If they get close for easier hits they should take risk. Now against ships with no ASW they do not take a risk.

 

If you want to compare unguided torps to submarine torps you need to remember that subs can shoot their torpedoes as straight runners. They do not need to give ping warning.

 

With ping they can avoid some islands. Unguided torpedoes NEVER avoid islands. Homing torpedoes can bypass torpedo protection with double ping. This is clear bonus for homing torpedoes. They have two powerful extra ability. Somehow you manage to count both extra abilities as negative things. 

 

 

Lets compare these so much weaker torpedoes to DD torpedoes closest to their performance, Swedish torpedoes.

(My lease of T8 subs went already, so can't check them.)

 

 

 

Cachalot vs Västerås:

• Better range (15%)
• Slightly better damage (4%), or clearly better damage (19,5%) with +15% skill.
• Superior speed (26%), but more reaction time (24%).
• Similar total weight but in more cumbersome positions
• Faster reload (15%).
• Oh, and guided torpedoes that by pass torpedo protection and some obstacles.

 

Balao vs Halland: 

• Less range (14%)
• Much less damage (27%), or just less damage (16%) with skill.
• Slight edge on speed (3,3%), but more reaction time (29%)
• Similar total weight but in more cumbersome positions
• Much faster reload (46%)
• Oh, and guided torpedoes that by pass torpedo protection and some obstacles.

 

Balao vs Småland: 

• More range (17%)
• Much less damage (27%), or just less damage (16%) with skill.
• Better speed (16%), but more reaction time (29%)
• Better total weight but in more cumbersome positions. Or not so bad, 8 vs 6 + 4 
• Much faster reload (46%)
• Oh, and guided torpedoes that by pass torpedo protection and some obstacles.

 

Suddenly those homing torpedoes doesn't look so bad. They are fast low damage torps, and similar weapons on DD's have pretty equal stats. Except the homing part to hit ships dodging or even shoot behind island. And of course bypass torpedo protection fully. 

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

You exaggerate. They don't keep farming from good position. They are slow and inflexible with relative short range. It's quite easy to play around it. But of course, it will happen, that a submarine will be in a good position to kill someone. Like any other ship will do that as well.

 

You can't play around unseen DD trying to torp from 7-8 km, but sub at 2-4 km from BB with no ASW weaponry is easy to play around. Could you explain just how do you calculate these difficulties? 

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

And you say  that like the 30 knots and 10-14km range is much ^^

Subs are slow vehicles in this games. DDs are faster, Cruisers are faster, and even some BBs are faster.

 

Yes. 30 knots and 10-14 km torpedo range is much. Let's compare:

Akizuki 33 knots 10km torps.

Kagero (note: a torp DD) 35 knots 10km torps.

Lightning 36 knots 8 km torps.

Öland 35 knots 12 km torps.

Jutland 34 knots 10 km torps.

Harugumo 36 knots 12 km torps.

Gearing 36 knots 10,5/16,5 km torps

Daring 35 knots 10 km torps.

Halland 35 knots 15km torps.

 

They are only slightly slower than slower DD's and have similar of longer range torpedoes. That is much.

 

Against BB's subs can be even faster, and speed up and turn faster also. So any nice ideas what a BB without any single ASW weapon can do to a sub?

 

On 8/17/2021 at 1:12 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

What are you doing against a DD with 40+knots and/or 16km range?

 

If he shows his rusted paint I shoot at him forcing him to keep distance or risk heavy damage if he tries to close in.

If he tries to torp with 16km torps (and how many DD even have such a long range?) I have almost a minute to do avoiding movement spoiling his aim.

 

What are you going to do to submarine with a ship with no ASW weaponry when sub is faster than you? He can just sail at his spotting range and shoot homing missiles at you. If he makes a mistake and you actually see him, he can just push C and be untouchable. Then he will keep on throwing missiles at you for 5-7 minutes. If you sail away he will just get up again at spotting range and keep sailing after you throwing homing missiles at you. 

 

Why not give a BB a change to harm a sub if he actually manages to sail over the sub? Any good reason other than "not all ships can have ASW weapons"?

[Sprockett]

 

[Pikkozoikum]

30 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

Radar and hydro are consumables that help you do damage. They do not deal with hidden enemies.

Smoke, damage control and repair parties help you keep your ship floating. 

Guns, torpedoes and ASW are weapons used to harm enemy. They are not "counter measures". They are things that go BOOM!, and every ship needs things that go BOOM!

Then use ASW on a BB, dd or cruiser. Doesn't work? Well guns and torpedos work. It's an armament type, especially only against ASW. it's called ANTI-submarine-warfare. It's purpose is to counter submarines.

As I said. A totally invisble DD won't go boom by BBs.

 

35 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

With close to 10 minutes dive capacity subs are untouchable to ships without ASW. If you want to compare it to DD smoke, smoke last only a fraction of it and ship in smoke can still be harmed. Totally different things.

Didn't compare it with smoke, though you also need to know, that DDs have speed for surviving.

 

36 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

It's not about hitting totally unseen ship. It is about control of battle and risk versus influence.

 

If DD want to stay hidden, then BB can still force it out of important area (like cap). If DD want to harm BB unseen it need's to shoot torps with 30-60 second arrival time giving skilled BB plenty of time to avoid (most) damage. If DD want to make it torpedoes more dangerous it has to come inside spotting range and risk getting hit.

Same counts for submarine, only in a different way

A BB can go for the cap, A submarine can try to torp him. A BB can outplay torps (DCP, Islands, maneuvers etc)

 

37 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

Sub against BB/CA without ASW weapons can stay at good firing position and safely farm away. You really don't see the difference?

DDs can also stay in safftey range, no idea, how you don't see that ;)

 

 

39 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

f DD gives indication of it's position, he hides in smoke or cap is running, he can be targeted.

"If"

 

40 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

subs and subs need total immunity to damage against them?

1. Because subs are slow and quite "blind", they work different. They have different advantages and disadvantages

2. DDs have such immunity by staying hidden.

 

42 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

Have you ever dropped torpedoes 7-8 km from BB, and missed? I have. Lot of times. 

Sure, but submarines can miss as well? Or do very little dmg

 

44 minutes ago, Gnomus said:

BB doesn't always dodge torpedoes. Sometimes I have managed to outwit my self and make "unexpected" turn, right into the torpedo salvo. I have also avoided torpedoes plenty of times when DD have tried to torp out of spot. That's why I have said DD's lose effectiveness. If they can drop from 2 km they are very hard to avoid. With no ASW weapons sub doesn't need to stay away and lose effectiveness, but can get as close as he wants and make those sure to hit shots.

On 2km the submarine is spotted and loses ~2x DivCap. The submarine will probably not have double ping, Or it can be DCP'ed

On 2km they might even not home in case of a ping.

Also a BB can just move to the side of a Submarine, then it can torp.

 

There are many options, Though a DD on 2km will probably one hit a BB^^

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

If such situation seems good for you I expect you to agree on surface ships having similar "I can't be harmed for x minutes" buttons. Seems reasonable, doesn't it?

No it's not reasonable, because they have different mechanics. This never works "x has something, that I dont have, so I want it, too"

Because then you can also say, "Yes, but Submarines down have 100k hp like a BB; then you are fine with giving submarines 100k hp"

That's not how it works.

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

Imagine destroyer getting spotted 5-8 km from 2 BB and CA. Everyone shoots at DD, DD dead. DD's would be unplayable.

The scenario is completly different. A submarine doesn't move with 40-50 knots and also splash damage doesn't do dmg to hull.

Different mechanics.

Aside that scenario, the DD maybe played back, if he gets spotted that close from a whole team.

But what I described is a max range scenario.

ASW-planes have 13km range, Only Balao has more range, but torping on max range is not always working.

An enemy sub just has to use the hydro, and then all the ships will drop bombs on the sub. It's Splash-bomb dmg vs a slow target.

Not comparable with gun fire against a fast target

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Danger is already there for other ships. Why should subs have free pass?

They don't have free pass. But there is no reason to make in unplayable

 

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Or have you considered possibility of giving BB's 1/4 to 1/2 of ASW power of DD's.

So you want nerf the BBs, that already have ASW? That would mean, a BB can drop their stuff, but it won't kill him anyways. It would be overall a nerf to ASW

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Giving every ships some ASW capability would not make subs unplayable. It would just deny them free farm against certain ships. Not even against certain classes, just some individual ships that have been denied any ASW capability.

A single BB can kill a sub with ASW, and you want give that to all BBs and cruisers. That makes a sub unplayable. Because it's not that hard to use ASW and if there are like 4-8 bomber attacks, no SS can survive that.

 

A single BB can easily take out SS. There I did a double kill with ASW + guns. My guns took in one salvo 100% hp

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Why do you keep assuming that "giving any ships ASW capability" will mean every ship getting ASW bombers? Or enough depth charges to obliterate 100% sub in seconds? 

You want give ships DCs, that didnt had DCs?

I assume, if a ship gets ASW, then it will be implemented in the same manner, like it is now. And as I said, that would have the consquences, that all ASW needs to be nerfed, otherwise its an overkill

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

If you want to compare unguided torps to submarine torps you need to remember that subs can shoot their torpedoes as straight runners. They do not need to give ping warning.

Then the damage potential is decreased. 7k dmg torps against a 50% dmg reduction? 3.5k dmg. And those torpedos have ~10s reaction time, they are spotted from the moon.

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

With ping they can avoid some islands. Unguided torpedoes NEVER avoid islands. Homing torpedoes can bypass torpedo protection with double ping. This is clear bonus for homing torpedoes. They have two powerful extra ability. Somehow you manage to count both extra abilities as negative things. 

As far as I know, they don't bypass torpedo protection. At least that was stated in one patch earlier. They do only increased dmg against citadells

Of course homing have advantages, but they also have disadvantage. And the point isn ot to say "X is op, because they have advantages" and then ignore, they have also disadvantages xD

 

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Lets compare these so much weaker torpedoes to DD torpedoes closest to their performance, Swedish torpedoes.

(My lease of T8 subs went already, so can't check them.)

But you know, that DDs have 2 types of main armament, while SSs only have one? ;)

Also the flooding chance should be different and some other parameters

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

And of course bypass torpedo protection fully. 

Woudln't be sure about that, I think they get bonus dmg, while torpedo protection is still active. But also you can DCP that. You can't DCP dmg from DD torpedos

The SS torpedos have some different mechanics

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Suddenly those homing torpedoes doesn't look so bad.

Did I say, those torpedos are bad? I think I rather said, they needed a buff to make the more usable. I mean, you can take the numbers before the buff ;)
I also said, if they are overbuffed, they could still get nerfed, but I think a high speed is the right design.

and I think I alos mentioned, that the dmg buff might be unecessary

But that is stuff, that has to be tested

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

You can't play around unseen DD trying to torp from 7-8 km, but sub at 2-4 km from BB with no ASW weaponry is easy to play around. Could you explain just how do you calculate these difficulties? 

I didn'T say that, I actually said, it's more or less the same situation. You can play around both situations. Mostly against a DD you would move away, though on that close range it's pretty difficult because of the speed of a DD

But I explained, how to play around SS

-use islands

-depending on HP, just sit close, torpedos can't home or increase in depth

-try to move to the side of the submarine and deplete the DivCap, sumbarines are sluggish

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Yes. 30 knots and 10-14 km torpedo range is much. Let's compare:

Akizuki 33 knots 10km torps.

Kagero (note: a torp DD) 35 knots 10km torps.

Lightning 36 knots 8 km torps.

Öland 35 knots 12 km torps.

Jutland 34 knots 10 km torps.

Harugumo 36 knots 12 km torps.

Gearing 36 knots 10,5/16,5 km torps

Daring 35 knots 10 km torps.

Halland 35 knots 15km torps.

You compare T10 SS with T8 DDs.

You forget about engine boost of DDs.

And there are also way faster DDs

Take the T8 SS and compare those with T10s ;)

 

As I said, SS are the slowest class aside BBs

 

You also don't understand, what I mean with low range. High range is 18+km, mid range is maybe around ~15km. 14km is almost mid range, but well, thats really the max, mostly you can't torp on 14km unless the target is moving towards the sub

 

The thing is with DDs is, they often have low/mid range, but htey also have the speed

Submarines have the COMBINATION of LOW RANGE (Range of DDs) and SLOW SPEED (speed level of fast BBs)

 

2 hours ago, Gnomus said:

Against BB's subs can be even faster, and speed up and turn faster also. So any nice ideas what a BB without any single ASW weapon can do to a sub?

so a 30 knot SS chases a 27 knot Yamato? 3 knot difference? That will take a long while.

 

 

I really don't know, why people think, that submarines are op. I played them a lot and also played against them. My conclusion is, they will be the most inflexible and match influencial class in the game generally. They can only have great influence, if the enemy fall for the trap. That can happen. But the combination of the speed of a BB and the range of DD makes it inflexbile, And flexibility can be the key for a victory.  That's why DDs and CVs are so influencial

If the speed buff is too much is hard to say, we couldn't test them against players, but the idea of buffing the speed, is logically

 

 

 

 

 

[CaptJTorres]

Hmm... WG, so much has happened in the last few days that barely anyone paid attention to submarines.

Regardless, and no matter how much we like them or not, we all know they're here to stay.

By now, you know that I'm one to be constructive and suggest solutions, not just another one to keep talking about the problem. We all know the problems. There are loads of Youtube videos and Twitch clips about how 'submarines are this' or 'submarines are that'. No point for me to go through all that again.

So, instead of focusing on 'what could be' (as was my last post regarding subs), let's focus on what 'can be'. In other words, let's work with what we got. No revolutionary changes, but important ones nevertheless.

 

1) Torpedo homing/tracking:

- Context: as of now, it tracks like an underwater missile to the existing torpedo aim assist 'white line';

- Issue: it creates weird instances of torps going straight into islands, or even allowing players (such as myself a few times) to 'curve' them around small islands, plus, for anything larger than a light cruiser, they are almost unavoidable;

- Fix (part 1): slow the torps down by some 10-20% (this has the positive side-effect of allowing bigger enemy ships to try to dodge them better, a recurring complaint);

- Fix (part 2): worsen the horizontal homing by some 10-20% (this will likely be enough to avoid 'island curving' and will require more skill in launching the torps, not only in 'pinging' the target, another recurring complaint);

- Fix (part 3): improve vertical homing by some 10-20% (to balance things out for the subs, because as of now, there's no point in being underwater if your torps barely climb in less than 10km unless they are tracking another submarine);

- Fix (part 4, the most important one): the 'ping' mechanic, keep it (because let's face it, you won't come up with another mechanic anytime soon) BUT, instead of being a 'ping and forget' mechanic, make it 'ping and hold'. What do I mean? Emulate the actual historical cable-guided torpedoes and require the submarine player to keep the ping 'active' and on target for the torpedo to track - and make it track to the line the player is tracing between the submarine and the target, not to the aim assist 'white line' (this which then becomes useful only for untracked torps, as usual). Some people might call this 'laser-guidance', without realizing that cable-guidance came waaay earlier and is still used in tank-born missiles to this day. So, basically, the ping becomes a 'beam', not a 'pulse', get it!? Not only does it require more skill from the submarine player, but also requires direct line of sight (i.e. detection), either on the surface or submerged.

- Fix (part 5, the cherry on top): the longer a submarine is 'beaming' the ping on target, the more likely it is to be located (after all, a ping is a loud sharp noise actively being emitted, that can be picked up by the enemy, unlike passive sonar). Make it a meter that fills with time, progressively increasing the submarine's detectability as it pings (in proportion to its depth, of course; the deeper the sub is, the slower the meter fills, but it also requires the submarine to be further away from the target and ping for longer so the torpedo has enough room to maneuver and climb: a risk/reward detectability balance win-win for sub and its target).

- Summary: with a less 'missile-like' horizontal homing and speed, proper vertical homing BUT a requirement to stay on target while being subjected to increasing detectability, submarine players will need actual skill (like the real submariners did back then) to land destructive strikes (yes) without being found out. When and for how long to 'ping' becomes a tactical cost/benefit decision of precision vs detectability, risk vs reward, as it was in actual conflict. And other ships will have a better chance not only to detect them, but also to avoid them.

 

2) The submarines themselves:

- Context: submarines are too fast (I understand that historical accuracy needs to give way to gameplay for subs to be able to join the battle and have fun, but at least let DDs and light cruisers that have ASW to be already 'in place' and 'ready' to use their Radars and Hydros before being torp'd out of nowhere);

- Issue: being sunk by a double-salvo of homing torpedoes before even joining the battle as a surface ship (not fun, as many have remarked);

- Fix: slow down submarines by some 10-20%, and their dive/climb speed by some 10%. That easy.

- Result: will subs be a little late to the action? Yes, a little, but this will force them to take more chances/risks because they will need to seek action and not just remain hidden from early on. Especially if you fix the ping as I suggested in section 1.

 

3) ASW:

- Give more BBs the depth charge airdrop;

- Give more light-medium cruiser the depth charges;

- Give some battlecruisers the depth charge airdrop;

- As I suggested in my last post, improve damage of CV-born armaments to Subs; and let player's chose before the battle, in the Equipment tab, if they want their bomber planes to be armed with depth charges as an alternative for sub-hunter CVs.

 

There you go. Nothing revolutionary, let's face it. Just a matter of good will (and as usual, my expectations are close to zero). 

 

PS: congrats to the Art team, once again, they look neat.

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:37 AM, General_Alexus said:

And the rest of the post you explain why they are (with homing torps forcing BBs to decide between Damagecon to prevent Citas or dmg-con to prevent perma floods) in fact way better in dealing with BBs than a DD could ever do.

Just looking at the BB que numbers, I cant help with having no compassion to the BB playerbase. They demand having it easy all the time, meanwhile they deleate crusers left and right through the nose because of overmatch.

Maybe a BB left alone by his DD screen or a cruiser with hydro "should" be dead quickly the same as you would demand any day of the week a CL/CA giving broadside should be deleated in one salvo?

In the old days we had RTS CVs for that, lone BBs were dead in one attack with subsequent DBs setting fires on repared floods.

Nowadays, on many maps, DDs cant even reach the BBs anymore and they have so many tasks (capping, spotting, hunting DDs) anyway that farming BBs becomes the task of a game already won through other means.

Having a specilized BB hunter is in my opinion what the game needs, the devs agree and went for it, we can discuss the means of doing so but as you wrote it up beautifully in your post: it seems like they alrady did a great job.

True. If that is what they want they've done a good job. 

However with the HE spam what happened is a lot a of BBs went camping, which they'll do even more now. 

Anyway time to get my FDR back to work then... 

[mtm78]

15 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I really don't know, why people think, that submarines are op

 

There are lots of people not even interested in the balance, it's the immersion breaking addition of science fiction vessels. 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

There are lots of people not even interested in the balance, it's the immersion breaking addition of science fiction vessels. 

Though that would be ignorant. Subs with sonar pings is science fiction, but radar through mountains, unlimited torpedos, high speed DDs, non-existant Ships like Montana are fine :3

I'm not saying, that the homing, sonar ping design is the best possible design. But I had fun and I'm kinda fine with that.

 

 

[mtm78]

 

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though that would be ignorant. Subs with sonar pings is science fiction, but radar through mountains, unlimited torpedos, high speed DDs, non-existant Ships like Montana are fine :3

 

Yes, mechanics don't all follow real life, radar through mountains has been a talking point for ages. Unlimited torpedo's, well yeah since it wouldn't be fun to play a game where you can't reload your main armament. And can you tell me which ship you talk about, the French speed deamons actually were that fast ( though trail run's... ). But this is fine, because the game uses these trail run speeds for all ships in the game where they have access to this data. And fictional ships are not immersion breaking if they follow design culture of said nation for instance.

 

All those 'big issues' are not immersion breaking. Adding a class which had nothing to do with actually being engaged during surface fleet engagements, only because WG wants to sell more premium ships and having to break the laws of physics by making submarines as fast as current nuclear one's ( mind you I fully expect WG to either remove them or make them even faster 'for gameplay sake' because they won't be attracting enough new buyers otherwise ) to shoehorn them into something they were tactically not a part off. 

[Capra76]

16 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I really don't know, why people think, that submarines are op.

 

So a few general points:

• who is saying that subs are o/p?
• balance isn't just about raw damage output;
• spamming the forum with walls of text until everybody gives up and ignores you doesn't make the class balanced no matter how hard you try.

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Unlimited torpedo's, well yeah since it wouldn't be fun to play a game where you can't reload your main armament

Actually not. I played Steel Ocean, that was quite similar to World of Warships and that game had limited Torpedos. Same as War Thunder

In Steel ocean it was fun to play with limited armament ,because you don't spam it. You would chose a target wisely and save for good shots.

 

That can be a lot of fun

 

That's actually something, what I don't like at the current CV rework. The large amount of planes make it spammy. With less planes, the CV would have to think more about the attack and maybe even wait, instead of spamming plane after plane into the enemy. Thats why CV is mostly "rushing" for damage

 

12 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

And can you tell me which ship you talk about, the French speed deamons actually were that fast ( though trail run's... ). But this is fine, because the game uses these trail run speeds for all ships in the game where they have access to this data.

When I looked up the data, it was completly different. Kleber has max speed 44 knots in game and the Mogador class 39 knots

The default speed is already higher. And max speeds might even something, that the ships not always performed. But then if you activate all the speed stuff, how fast is a kleber? 55 knots?

 

39 knots vs 44 knots (55 knots max)

 

I think many DDs have the default max speed set at the max speed irl. But DDs have also skills and modules to increase it way further

 

24 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

And fictional ships are not immersion breaking if they follow design culture of said nation for instance.

How is a Petro immersive or a Smol? :D

I rather think that a U-69 is more immersive

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

All those 'big issues' are not immersion breaking.  Adding a class which had nothing to do with actually being engaged during surface fleet engagements,

I disagree, that is some kind of cherry picking ,when a match vs russian super ships in a surface combat is still immersive with all nations including, but as soon a existing submarine joins, it's not immersive. As far I know and what also mentioned once by a CC, BB rarely fought other BBs. that happen only a few times. A very rare encounter. But in this game it's default. That is technically as unrealistic as having submarines engaging surface warships.

 

Aside that, most games, if not all are designed that way. I played recently War on the Sea, and I use submarines mostly solo, but also, when they are around, combined with Air and surface vehicles.

 

 

37 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

because WG wants to sell more premium ships and having to break the laws of physics by making submarines as fast as current nuclear one's

That's not a WG think, all submarines in every game are designed that way. In may sim-games you get time-acceleration. In pvp games like Steel Ocean or now in Warships the boats are faster than irl. Though Steel Ocean subs were a tiny bit slower. Mostly around 18-25 knots (though those were low->mid tier)

 

I think they could remove 1-3 knots from the boats. But then, Physics are generally broken. Radar, instant extinguishing of fires/floods and I think aircrafts are generally extremly slow in this game.

D3A T6 130 knots. How much gives the boost, 150 knots? Irl they had max speed 230 knots.

J5N  T10 152 knots, should be below 200 knots with boost. Irl 334 knots, even if you take 10% for bombload away, or even 20%. they are still way too slow

 

I don't think anyone is immersive broken, because the planes are not flying that fast^^

 

I don't see the issues there. Not optimal, but also not that bad

 

 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

20 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

who is saying that subs are o/p?

Some do. They are saying, that BBs will be unplayable and stuff like that.

 

20 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

balance isn't just about raw damage output;

That's why I mention always all the other parameters like the max speed of submarines (similar to BB speed), max range of the submarines and coutners.

 

21 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

spamming the forum with walls of text until everybody gives up and ignores you doesn't make the class balanced no matter how hard you try.

Because people are not capable of discussing and only go with "No, you are wrong", without any arguments, explanations or prooves? ;D

 

 "spamming the forum with walls of text", I would rather call it a detailed explanation and argumentation. Going with

"No you are wrong" is not really proofing anything.

If you don't like it, skip it. Use the ignore button.

[mtm78]

15 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Actually not. I played Steel Ocean, that was quite similar to World of Warships and that game had limited Torpedos.

 

I know, it's one of many a reason I think the game never became popular. 

 

16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I think many DDs have the default max speed set at the max speed irl. But DDs have also skills and modules to increase it way further

 

Yeah well that's WG's consumable spam for you, again a way to differentiate and increase possible in game assets so they can sell more premium stuff, not because it's really needed in the game. It's like that mode you rush for buffs, nice concept there is a game on Steam Battleships I believe which does this exclusively you go around the map killing people picking up their buffs or waiting on drops to get them and these buffs include changing your armament type to armor to ammo and so on. Fun game, but not what World Of Warships has always been marketed at. 

 

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

How is a Petro immersive or a Smol? :D

I rather think that a U-69 is more immersive

 

I agree 100% even if I see the U-69 limited to scenario gameplay only. Then it would be more immersive since you could closer match real life experiences with in game characteristics. 

 

20 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I disagree, that is some kind of cherry picking

Yes it is, but only because it is the most immersion breaking element to me personally. But yes, that is a personal preference I admit. It's also one which this game again was strategically marketed against imo. 

 

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

In may sim-games you get time-acceleration. In pvp games like Steel Ocean or now in Warships the boats are faster than irl. Though Steel Ocean subs were a tiny bit slower.

Lol, who are you talking to? You think you should explain time compression to me when I'm saying that is the main cohesion bringing element in the entire game, and it's the fact that submarines exist outside of this otherwise game defining cohesive element which makes this point so important?

 

I'm tempted to say you're trying to make me laugh, might I even add it worked 

17 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Because people are not capable of discussing and only go with "No, you are wrong", without any arguments, explanations or prooves? ;D

Yes, that is why we still see people defending both submarines as a principle in this game, and it's specific current implementation as well. I haven't seen you able to dismiss my argument other then that: ow you're nitpicking, ow you're wrong. 

[FellRaven]

 

First Ranked game Submarines are too easy to use. Launch Torpedoes Ping Target repeat. The Torpedo speed boost is partly but not entirely to blame. I think the fundamental issue is the homing torpedoes. Most people said it from day one and every test has proved it homing weapons of any type are against the ethos of any PvP game it is basically a game sanctioned aim bot. 

 

I'm OK with the detection and submersion, I might be able to live with the speed I understand the need to keep up.

 

But I don't think you will ever be able to sell the idea of an Aim Bot to players instead I will repeat what many others have said:

 

Give Submarines a choice of unguided Torpedoes, fast low damaged (Think EU DD), slow high damage (Think IJN DD) you could play with range and detection range too but I don't believe homing torpedoes will ever be balanced.

[Pikkozoikum]

10 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

I know, it's one of many a reason I think the game never became popular. 

No, I think that wasn't a reason. I actually liked that, and I would also like it in WoWS, but that would need rebalancing.

The issues with Steel Ocean was motly, that it was behind WoWS. Graphics, acousting and also bad balancing.

 

40 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Yeah well that's WG's consumable spam for you, again a way to differentiate and increase possible in game assets so they can sell more premium stuff, not because it's really needed in the game. It's like that mode you rush for buffs, nice concept there is a game on Steam Battleships I believe which does this exclusively you go around the map killing people picking up their buffs or waiting on drops to get them and these buffs include changing your armament type to armor to ammo and so on. Fun game, but not what World Of Warships has always been marketed at. 

Yes, but for me it never felt like a real naval battle game, more like a pvp game with warships. Alone the fact, that you have all nations vs all nations, and DDs that melt BBs with guns.

 

42 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

I agree 100% even if I see the U-69 limited to scenario gameplay only. Then it would be more immersive since you could closer match real life experiences with in game characteristics. 

Yes, and it would be still more immersive, when you have submarines in the battle, but remove all paper ships and allow only axis vs allies. That would be way more immersive imo.

I don't see an issue with subs having in a battle. If for what ever coincidence a submarine was close by a surface battle, wouldn't they shoot their torps on a ship?

 

44 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Yes it is, but only because it is the most immersion breaking element to me personally. But yes, that is a personal preference I admit. It's also one which this game again was strategically marketed against imo. 

Well, if it's your personal preference, then it's up to you ^^

 

45 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Lol, who are you talking to? You think you should explain time compression to me when I'm saying that is the main cohesion bringing element in the entire game, and it's the fact that submarines exist outside of this otherwise game defining cohesive element which makes this point so important?

 

I'm tempted to say you're trying to make me laugh, might I even add it worked 

I'm saying, that you need speed on submarines in games in what ever way. But a real time pvp game has often issues with time compression, so they need to adress the issue in another way.

 

It's probably possible to implement submarines with realistic speeds, but it would be very difficult to do that. They would need some kind of stationary gameplay like a turret. That would also mean, they need way more "defensive and stealth" mechanics. They need to spawn close in the cap. and so on

 

I think the mechanics you would need is not fitting for world of Warships, it wouldn't be arcadey enough for the game. A default arcade approach is a speed increase and reducing physical laws

 

49 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Yes, that is why we still see people defending both submarines as a principle in this game, and it's specific current implementation as well. I haven't seen you able to dismiss my argument other then that: ow you're nitpicking, ow you're wrong. 

Not sure, what you mean. But I think I explain my views kinda well. even though they seem often missunderstood. I use numbers, experiencenes, examples, comparions.
That is way more than stuff like:

"Hello, submarines are fine, you are wrong" comments ^^

 

Not sure what you mean with dismiss your argument? I mean, I explained the different speed pretty well, alone the speed difference from planes shows, that we go with different speeds, but a Kleber with 55 knots is just an overkill. That dismiss for me the argue "subs are too fast", aside it's an arcade game, and arcade games do that stuff (see Steel Ocean)

 

[mtm78]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If for what ever coincidence a submarine was close by a surface battle, wouldn't they shoot their torps on a ship?

 

In real life, friendly fire isn't. 

 

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That would be way more immersive imo.

Well no, because even then you're putting DD's in engagements they have no role in. 

 

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's probably possible to implement submarines with realistic speeds

Not if they are pushed in the same 20m game modes as the other classes. 

 

7 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

aside it's an arcade game, and arcade games do that stuff (see Steel Ocean)

And again, there was a time where forum would revolt if people actually sad WG should take element from that game. 

[Pikkozoikum]

37 minutes ago, FellRaven said:

Give Submarines a choice of unguided Torpedoes, fast low damaged (Think EU DD), slow high damage (Think IJN DD) you could play with range and detection range too but I don't believe homing torpedoes will ever be balanced.

I mentioned every feedback, that we should get the equivalent of AP and HE shells for submarines

-Slow, short range, high alpha damg torps (unguided)

-fast, long range, low aplpha damage torps (guided)

 

The guided is the equivalent of "harder to avoide" just like HE. HE is very hard to avoide. The short range torpedos are the high damage "AP"s, once in range and very close, they can be devestating

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

In real life, friendly fire isn't. 

I think submarine torpedos still had a few km range. And well, there was at least one battle, were submarines lurked for retreating ships. But then: BBs encountered quite rarely others BBs as well. If some historian is here around, he might count them all

 

12 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Well no, because even then you're putting DD's in engagements they have no role in. 

No idea what you mean or how that matters. It's still a team-pvp game and not a realstic strategic naval battle game. Otherwise we would have completly different gameplay.

I doubt that single DDs were used irl to melt BBs, while sitting in a smoke. Or cruisers camped behind islands.

The gameplay is completly not a realistic naval battle, it's just a pvp-team fight with ships ^^

 

12 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Not if they are pushed in the same 20m game modes as the other classes. 

I explained, how... and also, why we won't get it. But if you skip that... :P

 

12 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

And again, there was a time where forum would revolt if people actually sad WG should take element from that game. 

Dunno I played first Steel Ocean and changed from there to Warships. Though I played Steel Ocean 100s of hours. I think around ~500. Steel Ocean had some good mechanics, but overall worse quality. The spotting for example was actually more fun, but also more complex and chaotic

I didn't joing WoWS, because it looked a bit like WoT, which I didn't like much, where some guns are not functional etc. So I ignored it firstly