General Submarines related discussions

[JohnMac79]

7 hours ago, admiraldelorin said:

Read up on history...

You just failed.

[Gnomus]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I would see it like that:
Submarines are like DDs. Have all ships DD counters? They don't have. But they still get played. It's a team game and you play as a team against them. Some ships will be able to fight the DDs. Most BBs completly rely on the team to fight the DDs.

Where do you get these ideas?

 

Against a DD a BB can force it to keep safe distance (out of spot), thus making itself more safe when avoiding torps from long range. Same way a BB can force a DD out of cap, unless DD decides to have a gun/torp duel. Even if a DD smokes up a BB can still push it. Sure it's risky, but you can still go to proximity spot and sink that DD. Or just blind fire into smoke getting some hits depending on your and targets skill. If anything else fails there is ramming option.

 

Also when someone else manages to spot a DD, a BB can lend a hand and help his ally by hitting that enemy DD, thus turning uncertain 1 vs 1 to hopefully easy win with 2 vs 1. 

 

There are options, even if not all of them are good ones. DD's do not get free pass.

 

 

If some BB/CA has no ASW capability at all, he can't help an ally spotting and fighting enemy sub.

 

If some BB/CA has no ASW capability at all, the enemy sub can just hit the magic button and be untouchable for as long as he has diving capacity. So lets say 3-5 minutes, and that time might be worth doing something for a BB. I mean something else than just waiting for diving capacity to end. If BB turns it's guns on some other enemy, sub can just pop up at 0,5 km and empty torpedo tubes at the BB and dived again before BB has turned it's turrets. Oh and sorry. A sub can just stay under while torping the BB citadel from close range, no need to get up to periscope depth where it actually might get hurt.

 

 

Destroyers and subs are totally different kind of beast. You know the difference between difficult and impossible?

Unless every ships have change to harm sub loitering under it.

 

[MixuS]

9 hours ago, admiraldelorin said:

Beta tester doing one coop game and then comment in public forum ?

You do realize that "beta tester" as a forum status just means that I bought my way to closed beta back in the day? It does not mean that I'm some kind of WG employee or voluntary contributor. It does not mean that I do any testing of the game currently (or did any actual testing ever really). I'm just a regular player like I assume you are too. And my point was that subs are so boring that I don't see why I should play them more, so why wouldn't I be allowed to voice that opinion after only couple of games?

 

Beta tester, maybe I should put that in my CV. 

[MixuS]

Double post. WG pls fix this forum not giving any feedback that your post goes through if you're quoting a post that is not on last page of the thread.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

Where do you get these ideas?

Must say that is ga great post, +1 from me. However...

 

Quote

... If anything else fails there is ramming option.

Good luck on that one. I never found one that was THAT dumb. 

 

Quote

If some BB/CA has no ASW capability at all, the enemy sub can just hit the magic button and be untouchable for as long as he has diving capacity. So lets say 3-5 minutes, and that time might be worth doing something for a BB. I mean something else than just waiting for diving capacity to end. If BB turns it's guns on some other enemy, sub can just pop up at 0,5 km and empty torpedo tubes at the BB and dived again before BB has turned it's turrets. Oh and sorry. A sub can just stay under while torping the BB citadel from close range, no need to get up to periscope depth where it actually might get hurt.

And THAT is the reason why I'd say, no "homing torp crap" against surface ships. 

 

Just give them:

- regular torps, when launched from surface: they'd be fastest;

- DW torps, when launched form periscop depth. SLOWER but seen later. 

- Any torp launched at more than periscope depth is a sub-torp and can be homed on subs.  

 

So much easier. 

 

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

1 hour ago, MixuS said:

Double post. WG pls fix this forum not giving any feedback that your post goes through if you're quoting a post that is not on last page of the thread.

This has been an issues with weegee forums since I started using them a very long time ago.
Do you expect CVs and subs to be fixed before or after they fix the forum?

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

Where do you get these ideas?

Could ask you the same about this:

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

Against a DD a BB can force it to keep safe distance (out of spot), thus making itself more safe when avoiding torps from long range. Same way a BB can force a DD out of cap, unless DD decides to have a gun/torp duel. Even if a DD smokes up a BB can still push it. Sure it's risky, but you can still go to proximity spot and sink that DD. Or just blind fire into smoke getting some hits depending on your and targets skill. If anything else fails there is ramming option.

You are explaining tactics. We are talking about consumables and armament against specific ship types.

 

If you go with tactics, guess what, those ships without the ASW can also do specific tactics against Submarines, same as they can do against DDs... xD

 

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

Also when someone else manages to spot a DD, a BB can lend a hand and help his ally by hitting that enemy DD, thus turning uncertain 1 vs 1 to hopefully easy win with 2 vs 1. 

Someone else can also spot a submarine and deplete it's divCap, so it can be shot. But we are not talking about such kind of tactics, I think

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

There are options, even if not all of them are good ones. DD's do not get free pass.

Nobody claimed that

 

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

If some BB/CA has no ASW capability at all, he can't help an ally spotting and fighting enemy sub. 

If a ship has no ASW, it can spot submerged SS. They are not very fast. Also if they go down to maxium depth, then they got pushed into a bad situation

They will deplete, and then they can get shot. Or just go for the caps.

 

Though I don't see a point of this comparison. Some ships have specific mechanics, others don't

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

If some BB/CA has no ASW capability at all, the enemy sub can just hit the magic button and be untouchable for as long as he has diving capacity. So lets say 3-5 minutes, and that time might be worth doing something for a BB

And if there are no ships, that can get a DD, then the DD hits the magic button 'W', and he will be never seen again.

That was my point. some have no coutner-consumables/weapons against DDs, they rely on the help of others.

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

If BB turns it's guns on some other enemy, sub can just pop up at 0,5 km and empty torpedo tubes at the BB and dived again before BB has turned it's turrets.

Do that... this is quite inefficient and ineffective.

Without the pinging, the torpdeos do way less dmg, but also get reduced by torpedo belt.

Of course it does dmg, but not very much.

But what also happens: Dive cap gets depleted faster, the BB sees the Submarine at operating depth and will see it surfacing, so it can turn towards the side of the submairne.

Secondaries will also cause dmg as soon it is at 10m depth.

 

Not saying, that this can't work, but mostly I would say, it's a very bad move. It always depends on the situation

 

 

But also your example is in favor of the submarine, that the BB turns the guns away... What if a BB turns the guns away and a DD approaches the BB? The DD might one shot the BB.

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

Oh and sorry. A sub can just stay under while torping the BB citadel from close range, no need to get up to periscope depth where it actually might get hurt.

Depends on what you mean with close range. As far as I know they lose homing at 1km.

It also needs pinging, which means, 4km concealment -> depleting DivCap

 

But I also see not, how that is a reason to give everyone counter-consumables/armament against submarines.  It just what submarines are supposed to do, torping enemies.Especially if the enemies are not coutners to the submarine.

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

You know the difference between difficult and impossible?

That's a point, what people often don't understand. If something is in theory "only" difficult, but in practice so unlikely, that it can be done, then it's actually "impossible"

Is it possible to hit a DD, that is invisble since 10 minutes? Yes. Is it likely? No.

I mean, it's possible, that you win 3 times the jackpot of 1 Mil money. But it's so unlikely, that I call it impossible.

 

While it's impossible to hit a submarine at depth with guns, it's also so unlikely to hit a completly hidden DD with guns without any intel, that I would call it impossible in a relevant way.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gnomus said:

Unless every ships have change to harm sub loitering under it. 

It's same like against DDs. A ship without counter-consumables and armament can only harm a DD, when the DD is exposed. Otherwise you can't

So you have to wait for the exposude of the DD and of the SS. In case of an SS it's depleting the DivCap.

Or just cap. That's mostly what I would do against SSs and DDs

[Pikkozoikum]

40 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And THAT is the reason why I'd say, no "homing torp crap" against surface ships. 

Why though is that a reason? Actually that is why they are actually weaker than non-homing.

 

The difference would be:

 

With homing the ship pings, and gets spotted at 4km

Without homing the ship will be hidden at ~2.5km

 

With homing it does only higher damage, when hitting the citadell

Without homing there must be a comenpsation for the not having these torpedos, thus the torpedos will do overall more dmg, otherwise they would be hard nerfed in damage

 

With homing torpedos, homing doesn't work at close range

Without homing, there is no homing at close range anways, so the close range scenario would be even worse for the BB.

 

 

The non-homing torpedo would make that marked scenario way more worse ^^

 

Homing torpeods increase the skill gap. Bad players will get rekt, good players will play smart against it.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Why though is that a reason? Actually that is why they are actually weaker than non-homing.

Yes, so it is obvious that they see the advantage of homing.

Also, double ping means "citadel" so they're not exactly weaker, eh. 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The difference would be:

 

With homing the ship pings, and gets spotted at 4km

Without homing the ship will be hidden at ~2.5km

 

With homing it does only higher damage, when hitting the citadell

Without homing there must be a comenpsation for the not having these torpedos, thus the torpedos will do overall more dmg, otherwise they would be hard nerfed in damage

Yes I do think that if you have surface/periscope depth torps they should do more damage.

Risk vs reward. That is also why I am against homing torpedoes. The risk is too low. 

A DD must be VERY smart if he stays undetected. A sub doesn't really need to be. 

And if he FF-d it up, there he has a 7 minute "smokescreen", that is (at deepest dive) the safest as well. 

I think hydro should still detect them, no hydro has 7 minutes anyway. And then yes they could be DC-ed, too. 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

With homing torpedos, homing doesn't work at close range

Without homing, there is no homing at close range anways, so the close range scenario would be even worse for the BB.

You mean, the BB cannot escape since the sub can follow him outside detection range. OK, so can a DD. 

But you can surprise the DD by slowing down suddenly or FF him up by going behind an island, then waiting until he shows. 

You can run into him try to blap him (you maybe eat a few torps but hey).

A sub just goes down, doesn't show, but still feeds you his torps. From below.

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The non-homing torpedo would make that marked scenario way more worse ^^

That doesn't  matter, really. Because it is the subs choice. 

And he will of course choose the best (for him) solution. 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Homing torpeods increase the skill gap. Bad players will get rekt, good players will play smart against it.

You are correct here. But increasing the skill gap is not a good thing. 

[Ungrim_Baraz]

Copy pasting here my feedback which I left in another thread (Submarines in Ranked and Co-op Battles)

 

On 8/6/2021 at 2:09 PM, Ungrim_Baraz said:

Hi!

Here I´ll try to give some constructive criticism about submarines.

Foreword: I am a former Closed Beta tester who stopped playing after the introduction of Dead Eye (showcasing your total disregard for community feedback) and enduring way too many f*** ups from your side. Nonetheless I installed now PTS to try subs because, even though I think they should not have been introduced into the game, they are gonna make it (sunken cost fallacy), hence the best outcome would be having them in a suitable spot, and it might, just might, be actually for the better... who knows... At one point in the past I hoped subs could feel up a role which some time ago the game needed, I hoped for subs to evolve into a "dislodging" tool, a vessel capable of sneaking in and praying on camping and island huggers as the game was stale and such a role could not be filled up by other ships, hence I had hopes you´d design subs for such a role. Unfortunately you are just aiming for damage farmers on BBs and not much more...

My feedback after trying PTS:

 

Good things: Art department carrying harder than Sam at Mount Doom...

 

Bad things:

Using DCP to counter the submarine´s ping is not a good mechanic for several reasons. The ping should be impossible to disable by the defender to provide a consistent player experience for the sub: You ping -> something happens, instead right now: You ping -> you do not even know if it will stick (pinging from underwater you have no idea if DCP is currently active on your target or not). Instead of the current binary defense system, the submarine should have to have pros and cons when pinging so that the attacker would decide whetehr to ping or not (player skill based decission).

 

For exmaple, what I suggest is that for each active ping on the defender, its capability for detecting incoming homing torpedoes from the attacking submarine should be greatly increased, maybe as much as the base detectability of said torpedoes per ping. Example of gameplay assuming a base detectability of submarine launched torpedoes of 1.5:

• No ping on target: Usecase if the submarine wants to be sneaky, torpedoes are dumb and unguided, challenging for defender to spot and dodge.
• 1 ping on target: Submarine torpedoes get a small homing effect. The defender gets informed, exactly lilke now, of the direction from which the ping came, and the assured spotting range of the submarine torpedoes is set to 1.5 + 1.5 = 3.0 km
• 2 pings on target: Submarine torpedoes get a higher homing effect (in general, the amount of homing is subject to spreadsheet balance and even subject to upgrades/skills buffs/debuffs: trade offs in skills) and/or speed buff. The defender gets informed, exactly lilke now, of the direction from which the ping came, and the assured spotting range of the submarine torpedoes is set to 1.5 + 2*1.5 = 4.5 km.
  • No torpedo  protection ignoring. This part of the current gameplay only encourages farming damage on BBs and nullifies Nation traits (IJN and Soviet BBs with very decent torpedo damage protection). This whole citadel damage mechanic is brutal (and your proposed torpedo buffs, as of today, are gonna make it worse).

In this way an active defending player would have the chance of maneuvering, and the sub attacker would not have all of its effort thrown out the window by just the press of one button. Moreover a small homing effect (not the damage farming of ignoring torpedo protection) is perfectly aligned with the role I wish Subs could fulfill: praying on stationary targets which even if beginning to move could be tracked well enough by a homing torpedo.

 

In regards to current dmamge output... judging from PTS, yes, I agree subs damage output is rather low, but the whole citadel damage concept makes all that low damage, which you are buffing with the suggested torpedo buffs, unfair unavoidable and unrepairable (because what if DCP is on cooldown, you just cannot do anything at all, and it is not a DoT you can manage or plan for). Again, pinging should not be automatically always better, there should be a trade off for the attacking sub upon which to make the decissions.

 

And now specifically about the DCP counter: It is horrible: You are putting more strain on DCP which is a no go as its main use is to be managed by players (in a careful meditated way, as you have said plenty of times that new players have to learn when to use it and accept eating just one fire etc etc: DCP is used a posteriori of the damage) to take care of their ship, managing DoT or malfunction module operation (damage already inflicted on the ship) which has nothing to do with avoiding incoming potential damage (which might not even happen). It is way too simple to abuse this mechanic and while your torps are reloading (or have missed, or their target has avoided or has been sunk or you are not yet in position to launch...) you just spam pings to fool the opponents making them waste DCP or flee by just pretending as you were gonna attack (I did indeed do this agaisnt human BB players in PTS).

 

DcP must remain a tool to manage received damage, NOT to prevent damage. This is mixing gameplay situations for which CDP was not conceived.

And on top of that you have the mind numbingly stupid and horrendous current situation of CV invulnerability to the pings because of automated and ultra long DCP... Let me remind you the third Yamato class hull , Shinano, converted to CV was sunk by flooding out when being moved from one port to another by a Balao submarine: USS Archerfish...

In summary: I did not hink subs had to be introduced, you do want them, hence I want them being introduced as best as possible. In my opinion the game lacks, or lacked when I did play, a vessel capable of dislodging campers, island huggers, stale engagements and such. For this reason I thought submarines with torpedoes which were, fast, easy to spot and with a small homing effect would be ideal for such role. Counterplay must offer consistent outcomes at both ends of the engagemnt, nothing can depend on just one click of one button which might or might not even be available to be pushed (as DCP competes with plenty of other usecases nowadays to be triggered). Relying always on a double ping as default "go to" attack procedure is boring and leads to no trade off situation in which to decide and leaves no room for the defending player for reaction: The defender is just a passive subject (as surface ships are nowadays when attacked by a CV due to the total crap AA mechanics you left in the game... I wonder whether these paralellisms are not fortituous but intentional...)

It is clear that for quite some time you have worsened the state of the game focussing on nonstop floods of premiums to fuel your subamrine development (now you even pay people to bring newcomers, in other words: the game has degenrated so much and there is so much negative PR around it, you cannot attract new players and older, experienced ones, are not fooled by you). For me this has been a mistake and I find no more enjoyement on the game as it is know, but I do wish that, as you are gonna introduce submarines regardless, it ends this cycle of predatory tactics needed to fuel the black hole of dev. resources which subamrines have been for you. Hence I still have some hopes, once you introduce them, you might free resources to fix the game as everyone demands you to do. For me the current submarine focus on farming BBs via double ping for ignoring torpedo protection and the offered counterplay via DCP use is a deal braker. If this continues as tested on PTS I will not rejoin the game because subs will not help fixing problems but rather creating new ones.

 

On a side note, it is totally hilarious that the three nations with BBs suposedly working at closer ranges: German, Italian and Soviet, have zero ASW measures whilst the other nations (none of which operates at close range, except for a few USN premiums) have aerial dropped depth charges.

 

Lastly, pelase WG, leave me a reply acknowledging you have fully read, understood, taken note and distributed this feedback internally.

Best regards,
A former devote player since CBT.

 

PD: Forgot to mention player number must be increased to account for lower number of surface targets... Your excuse on "the game is balanced around 12 v 12 engagements" is a fallacy: Why then having competitive modes (in which balance is of paramount importance) on differnet player counts? why then having CVs at all which are not part of the surface engagment effectively decreasing the number of surface ships? Why live testing then a new class outside of the "balanced" realm of the random 12 v 12?. Please, do not insult our intelligence, find a better excuse for not being capable/willing of increasing the player number.

[Pikkozoikum]

25 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes, so it is obvious that they see the advantage of homing.

Also, double ping means "citadel" so they're not exactly weaker, eh. 

Double ping means as much citadell as AP shells mean citadell.

You can hit it, but there is no garant.

 

You might not hit the citadell, when

-the ships maneuvers out

-the bow or stern is hit

-the ship uses DCP before impact

 

There are a lot of conditions, before you get that dmg, that makes them weaker, because if you get normal torpedos, the alpha is high no matter what you hit.

If you have 7k dmg torps homing with the functionality of 14k citadell dmg, then a non-homing torpedo would probably have something around 10-14k by default. And they won't have to hit the citadell. They also don't get countered by DCP or bow in/stern

 

31 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes I do think that if you have surface/periscope depth torps they should do more damage.

Risk vs reward.

But that's the thing. The non-homing have actually less risk. That's what I try to tell people all the time. Homing torpedos have a lot conditions.

When i'm at 2.8 km distance on periscope depth, then I'm invisible. If I want now homing with citadel dmg, then I have to ping. I get 4km concealment and get spotted

Same scenario with non-homing. I stay hidden, and I can torp with high dmg torpedos. That is actually less risk, but still a nice reward. On 2.8km it's not very difficult to hit torpeods.

 

34 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

The risk is too low.

No, the risk is high because

1. pinging increases concealment

2. pinging warns the enemy on max distance and with direction (some people maybe go for asw-plane blind drops, that happend to me already on PTS)

 

Non-homing have low risk.

 

36 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

A DD must be VERY smart if he stays undetected. A sub doesn't really need to be. 

Don't see why

 

36 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And if he FF-d it up, there he has a 7 minute "smokescreen", that is (at deepest dive) the safest as well. 

That's the mechanic of the submarine. Submarines are quite slow, if you [edited], you will get dropped by Asw-planes. And those have huge area of effect. So it doesn't matter, if you dive, if they aim well, you might even die.

 

39 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I think hydro should still detect them, no hydro has 7 minutes anyway. And then yes they could be DC-ed, too. 

On maximum depth, no, I don't see why. Though they get detected by submarine-hydro, what I also don't like

 

40 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You mean, the BB cannot escape since the sub can follow him outside detection range. OK, so can a DD. 

But you can surprise the DD by slowing down suddenly or FF him up by going behind an island, then waiting until he shows. 

You can run into him try to blap him (you maybe eat a few torps but hey).

A sub just goes down, doesn't show, but still feeds you his torps. From below.

This was not about DDs. It was about the scenario, that was described earlier. When a sub surfaces close by at a BB to launch torps at him. I was mentioning, that homing torpeds would not hom at super close range, while in case of non-homing torpedos, if a submarine would get those, these would be better (in that case). Because the homing condition would be off the table, but non-homing would have high alpha

 

42 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

A sub just goes down, doesn't show, but still feeds you his torps. From below. 

Not at close range, they don't hom at close range.

 

43 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That doesn't  matter, really. Because it is the subs choice. 

And he will of course choose the best (for him) solution. 

What doesn't matter? We talked about a very specific scenario. In the described scenario, the homing torpedos are worse than potential non-homing variants.

 

44 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You are correct here. But increasing the skill gap is not a good thing. 

Depends, there should be always a certain skill gap. If you don't want a skill gap, then we just have to automate everything: Main guns, moving with autopilot, torpedos etc. Then there is no skill gap, because the player has not to control anything.

 

And I actually like the mechanics, that comes with the homing torpedos. No doubt, I wish we would get also non-homing torpedos as hard hitting short range torpedos, but those would buff the submarine extremly, because in close range scenarios, those torpedos are op

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Submarines are quite slow, if you [edited], you will get dropped by Asw-planes.

Well read that again, then think about it. 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, Ungrim_Baraz said:

Copy pasting here my feedback which I left in another thread (Submarines in Ranked and Co-op Battles)

 

Never say never, but I actually think, they won't change anything on the current version except some stats-tweaking. Speed, dmg and stuff like that

6 minutes ago, Ungrim_Baraz said:

I did not hink subs had to be introduced, you do want them, hence I want them being introduced as best as possible. In my opinion the game lacks, or lacked when I did play, a vessel capable of dislodging campers, island huggers, stale engagements and such

I actually think, that could be the case in compeititve play, Because people are playing there way more for survival. So a SS could go into position for flanking

In randoms, people often die in the first minutes and lose a flank

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well read that again, then think about it. 

Why?

 

As I said, if a SS f'ed up, like you said, then it can submerge, yes. That is the point of a submarine. But that doesn't mean, that you will survive.

F'ed up means for me, that the SS got spotted. thus it might happen, that a BB drops the DCs on it

 

Don't see the point here

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Why?

 

As I said, if a SS f'ed up, like you said, then it can submerge, yes. That is the point of a submarine. But that doesn't mean, that you will survive.

F'ed up means for me, that the SS got spotted. thus it might happen, that a BB drops the DCs on it

 

Don't see the point here

Yes, you also have your own version of "skill gap". But this: 

 

- Submarines are quite slow, 

 

- if you [edited], you will get dropped by Asw-planes.

 

BBs are kinda slow as well, yeah? 

And some of them will have no ASW planes/DC/hydro at all. 

Even if the sub doesn't dive for whatever reason. Planes? 

If you do not see a problem, well, I do. 

[Pikkozoikum]

Just now, BLUB__BLUB said:

BBs are kinda slow as well, yeah? 

How does the speed matters? We clearly talked about a "submarine f'ed up" scenario. That means, the submarine is in a bad situation, not in a good situation.

ASW-aricrafts have 13km distance, that is mostly the range of torpedos.
Is the BB in torpedo range, then it's in asw range. If the submarine f'ed up, then you can expect an ASW attack.

 

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

And some of them will have no ASW/DC at all. 

I was describing a possible scenario, to make clear, that a submarine not just submerges and is fine then. It still can be punished.

If a submarine f'ed up, the best-case scenario will be, that the SS will lose "only" divCap.

4 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes, you also have your own version of "skill gap"

What has "skill gap" now to do with that?

[Corocotta15]

I dont care about speed, torps or whatever. I just dont play them. I got them in the Armory and I didnt play them for rent, as well all my clan, except one person. Tomorrow, I will get my 200 coal. The third option is a sub and I wont open even that door. 

 

With all my respect to anyone who get the paradise with them. 

 

Im thinking that WG goal is to create a Premium Game with cv's, subs, may be missils, perhaps some kind of Kraken monster. The supergame! Normal people will continue sailing with surface ships. You Know. We are poor and cant afford enough for this experiment.

[pissBoiler]

On 8/13/2021 at 4:41 PM, YidDogg said:

 

In fact: The whole concept (that's before playtesting) is so mindblowingly stupid, that they had to make up b*llsh*t consumables even on capital ships to make up ways for them to be, like, not defenceless in situations where the last remaining ships of a battle were BB/CA vs.

 

40 pages in, and we STILL have posters who argue the game is perfect 

 

[Peroidas]

Having subs disappear and present just two sticks to the player while they are on periscope depth is very bad idea. The player should always be able to easily tell where his ship is and where is it going and it currently is not the case.

 

Either switch to the underwater view (I think it is better option) or give the shadowy outline we get for the enemy subs that are on periscope depth. 

[AndyHill]

9 hours ago, Corocotta15 said:

Im thinking that WG goal is to create a Premium Game with cv's, subs, may be missils, perhaps some kind of Kraken monster. The supergame! Normal people will continue sailing with surface ships. You Know. We are poor and cant afford enough for this experiment.

No no no this needs to be a super-extra premium game for extra premium cost, I still have almost 500 days of normal premium left.

[Gnomus]

18 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You are explaining tactics. We are talking about consumables and armament against specific ship types.

 

If you go with tactics, guess what, those ships without the ASW can also do specific tactics against Submarines, same as they can do against DDs... xD

I'm talking about ability.

 

Guns and torpedoes sink ships. They work against any ships class.

Radar and hydro are good thing to spot some enemies and can help your guns and torpedoes to harm enemy ship. Yet those consumables alone do nothing and they are not needed to do the damage.

 

Everyone can harm anyone. Some times it is harder, sometimes easier, but it is always there. If opponent want to use range or camo to avoid counter fire he must do so from distance, so weakening his firepower and allowing target more ways to avoid damage.

 

Against subs this is no longer the case if ship doesn't have ASW weapons. How can a BB without ASW weapons push sub from cap? It can't. It can't even ram. It can't force sub out of position, it can just eat torpedoes until it gets sunk or subs dive capacity ends. 

 

Or take a German BB with hydro. Excellent against subs because it can see them below surface? Sure, except seeing means nothing when that BB has no ability to do anything to the subs.

 

Question is not about consumables. 

Question is about basic principle of any ship being able to harm other (even if it might be difficult).

 

19 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If a ship has no ASW, it can spot submerged SS. They are not very fast. Also if they go down to maxium depth, then they got pushed into a bad situation

They will deplete, and then they can get shot. Or just go for the caps.

 

You can try this out (hopefully in coop) battles. Try to play your CA or BB so that you only spot, or lets allow using secondary guns. Then see how well you can do against enemies when they can go for optimal firing solution and tear you to pieces while you spot and hope someone else will sunk them.

 

Ship that can't harm near by subs is dead very fast, unless he brings friends. And we know how well these "play together" things work on random battles. They do not. Even taking caps won't work when sub can throw homing missiles at you on short intervals. 

 

19 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Though I don't see a point of this comparison. Some ships have specific mechanics, others don't

 

Some ships have specific mechanism. Those mechanism augment their basic systems. Every ships still needs guns and/or torpedoes to harm other ships. Any ships will take damage from guns and torpedoes. Every ships can harm any other ship. That is not "specific mechanism". That is basic principal of the game.

 

This far all defenses have been "soft". Ship in smoke can be harmed. Un seen ship can be hunted and forced out of area. Even carrier can be sunk either by catching it or shooting from long range if someone else spots it.

 

Now subs are getting "hard" cover where certain ships can't do anything to them for long period of times while subs can freely damage them. This is the problem.

 

For comparison "specific mechanism" against subs should be radar to catch sub on surface or periscope depth. Hydro to find them underwater. Those can help ships to hunt subs, but are not necessary. 

 

Still every ship should be able to harm subs. Some might have better options with lot of high damage depth charges, some have only few smaller ones, some might call in ASW planes, but every ships need to have some way of fighting back. 

 

Or would you like some "specific mechanism" where DD could push a button, and then be invulnerable to torpedo damage for 5 minutes? See how much fun that would be for subs. After all sub "could spot for others or go for caps". That would be totally broken. Some BB/CA being unable to do anything to subs underwater is totally broken same way.

 

19 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And if there are no ships, that can get a DD, then the DD hits the magic button 'W', and he will be never seen again.

That was my point. some have no coutner-consumables/weapons against DDs, they rely on the help of others.

 

If that DD hit the W and is never seen again, then he needs to launch his unguided torps from 6 km away. Then he can be forced out of caps or other important positions. His ability to influence battle is highly reduced.

 

Subs pushing C against a BB without ASW weapons can just farm the BB to his leisury from optimal position. Notice the difference?

 

19 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Do that... this is quite inefficient and ineffective.

Without the pinging, the torpdeos do way less dmg, but also get reduced by torpedo belt.

Of course it does dmg, but not very much.

 

If you wan't "specific mechanism" then give BB ability to totally ignore damage from submarines torpedoes. For example for 5 minutes at the time. Why not?

 

If your defense for sub is that it doesn't do much damage, when BB is doing everything it can to reduce danger from sub.  Why not give all BB some depth charges. Sure it won't obliterate sub as well as dedicated ASW DD, but then it could do some damage.

 

Why it is so bad that ships that currently are "totally incapable" would be "inefficient and ineffective"? Because subs has to have that 5-10 minutes they can fail as much as they like (as long as they stay underwater) and still do some damage against enemies while themselves are totally safe? 

 

19 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's same like against DDs. A ship without counter-consumables and armament can only harm a DD, when the DD is exposed. Otherwise you can't

So you have to wait for the exposude of the DD and of the SS. In case of an SS it's depleting the DivCap.

Or just cap. That's mostly what I would do against SSs and DDs

 

This I already explained. DD loses effectiveness or endangers itself. It can be forced out from important area, like caps. It might not get sunk, but it loses much of it's relevance. Even in smoke it can be forced out of blind fired. DD's opponent can dictate (some) terms of battle. 

 

Sub on the other hand can just keep farming, and do it from good position. It's target can't do anything. At least anything else than run, and that is so fun from sub that can go 30+ knots and have homing missiles with 12+ km range.

 

 

 

I have gone carrier hunting, and get sunk by secondarier. I felt stupid, but it was earned, as any ships has to be able to harm others. And I'm not even mean secondary specced Graf, that annihilates anyhting in range. 

 

I have sailed on Izumo (before several buffs) and lost all 3 main turrets permanently while still having half my hitpoints. Yet I didn't feel useless because I still managed to go in secondaries blazing helping my team (but we won by points before I managed to ram enemy BB). 

 

All ships need to be able to harm others. It might be difficult, it might be "inefficient and ineffective", but it must be there. 

[Aethervoxx]

I found the opportunity to play the T6, T8 & T10 Subs in co-op to be instructive (if nothing else).

I really only learnt surface & periscope depth play. I found both of these to be OK.

I cannot comment on deeper depth play as I am still learning that. It definitely is more difficult to learn.

Do I find the Sub speeds or the Sub torp speeds to be 'historical'? No.

WoWS is more, imo, arcade than simulation & WG has to get Subs to 'work' somehow since WG is determined to push Subs into WoWS.

I would say Subs have to have good surface stealth  and even better periscope depth stealth or they will be too weak, too easily encountered.

Since Subs will be in WoWS, I will play them (at least T6 ones) and I want to see Subs in random battles as soon as they are 'officially' launched.

[ThePopesHolyFinger]

Before I go further into detail, subs are just stupid and belong only in games with CVs - they need their own server for this level of stupid.

Now, constructive criticism:
There are FAR too many ships which don't have anti-sub counter-measures. That needs fixed about 27 patches ago.

In port, there is no quick way to tell which ships have anti-sub counter-measures.
Yes, I can go to each ship individually to see if it's going to be dis-advantaged, but that's just a ball-ache. We can see which ships are premium or elited, but we have no idea which ships can counter the much wanted subs.

On the odd occasion I have a ship with depth charges, I have no idea what range they have and, thus, no idea how best to deploy them.
The inclusion of Dutch aircraft (in a warship game) at least have a box indicating where bombs will be delivered; we need something similar for depth charges.

Should we encounter a surfaced, or sub-surfaced submarine, (it's either a sub, or a surface ship, because physics) we see a silhouette which we can shoot at. Shells appear to drop 100m or more beyond the half sub/half ship, but sometimes the shells somehow do damage. But when seeing shells flying 100m or more beyond the half sub/half ship, the instinct is to aim lower but then no hits happen. This is stupid.
 

I know @MrConway and @Crysantos are having a bit of a crap start to the week, but it would be good if they could take these comments on board and either kill subs, or just remove them from the game until they are way better than they are at this stage of introduction.

[Pikkozoikum]

15 hours ago, Aethervoxx said:

I found the opportunity to play the T6, T8 & T10 Subs in co-op to be instructive (if nothing else).

I really only learnt surface & periscope depth play. I found both of these to be OK.

I cannot comment on deeper depth play as I am still learning that. It definitely is more difficult to learn.

Do I find the Sub speeds or the Sub torp speeds to be 'historical'? No.

WoWS is more, imo, arcade than simulation & WG has to get Subs to 'work' somehow since WG is determined to push Subs into WoWS.

I would say Subs have to have good surface stealth  and even better periscope depth stealth or they will be too weak, too easily encountered.

Since Subs will be in WoWS, I will play them (at least T6 ones) and I want to see Subs in random battles as soon as they are 'officially' launched.

Maximum depth is good for avoiding DCs, since they have more distance to sink. Especially T10s have high speed submerged.

But Maxium depth can be used to attack as well without getting spotted.

 

On Maximum depth the concealment goes down to 0 km and even the 4km pinging concealment goes down to 0km

Though the submarine is blind, but it can use hydro.

 

That means, when an enemy is around 3-4km, and you don't want get discovered,  because you are pinging, then you go down to maximum depth and activate hydro and ping from there.

 

But it's a bit harder to perform with Hydro-spotting

[General_Alexus]

On 8/15/2021 at 8:42 PM, BLUB__BLUB said:

Must say that is ga great post, +1 from me. However...

 

Good luck on that one. I never found one that was THAT dumb. 

 

And THAT is the reason why I'd say, no "homing torp crap" against surface ships. 

 

Just give them:

- regular torps, when launched from surface: they'd be fastest;

- DW torps, when launched form periscop depth. SLOWER but seen later. 

- Any torp launched at more than periscope depth is a sub-torp and can be homed on subs.  

 

So much easier. 

 

I would not scrap the homing capability, we have realy low damage homing torps, if we scrap homing, we would need to buff the damage to the extent that subs are just realy bad DDs.

But I agree, as DW torps as a concept is already in the game it actually makes sense that torps lauchned from underwater should behave like this.