General Submarines related discussions

[Varian_Dorn]

18 hours ago, SurfaceFish said:

How many people would play them if WG removed the pinging and homing, they are slow, have no guns to fight other ships like destroyers.

Except for the "no guns" part this basically describes the I-56. Which is, at least for me, fun to play, as she has her strengths differently weighted than most other subs.

 

And I dare wager Mr. Schelfie would still be mad if he´d get Dev Striked by this sub. Case in point though: there´d still be people who would want to play them. So no "riddance" any time soon, if ever.

[Schelfie]

3 minutes ago, Varian_Dorn said:

Except for the "no guns" part this basically describes the I-56. Which is, at least for me, fun to play, as she has her strengths differently weighted than most other subs.

 

And I dare wager Mr. Schelfie would still be mad if he´d get Dev Striked by this sub. Case in point though: there´d still be people who would want to play them. So no "riddance" any time soon, if ever.

Nope. It's just the homing torps I really, really hate.

[Varian_Dorn]

I apologise in this case. Personally I don´t care much for the mechanic - it makes the very few sub-to-sub fights doable, but thats just about it for me.

I prefer the style of I-56 in general, even if I use a sub with a focus on homing torpedoes (meaning: I rather fire a volley of torpedoes without a sonar ping - reduces the likelihood of being detected).

Also gives off more U-96 vibes

[Sunleader]

23 hours ago, SurfaceFish said:

How many people would play them if WG removed the pinging and homing, they are slow, have no guns to fight other ships like destroyers.

 

That Depends.

If they just Removed this Mechanic with no other Changes. Submarines would be Literally Unplayable because they would basicly be nothing more than Completely Gimped Destroyers.

 

But WG will never do that. Because the Average Results. Which is the Primary thing WG looks at for Balancing. Would Drop Drastically. Hence Guaranteeing that WG would give Submarines Insane Buffs.

 

Hence the more likely Scenario would be that if WG were to ever Remove the Pinging and Homing. It would be Replaced by either a Different Mechanic. Or would be Replaced by Submarines getting Severe Buffs.

Likely this Buff being that Submarines would get DD Torpedoes. Allowing them to effectively Oneshot most Ships on their Tier like a DD can with a Full Torpedo Salvo.

Just that the Submarine can Launch these from 2km away instead of needing to Drop them from 6km away.

 

And well. Actually People would keep Playing Submarines in that case. *gg*

 

 

[NewHorizons_1]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

That Depends.

If they just Removed this Mechanic with no other Changes. Submarines would be Literally Unplayable because they would basicly be nothing more than Completely Gimped Destroyers.

Would they though?

Didn't you say earlier that good players rarely use sonar pings to avoid giving away their presence & position?

On 2/22/2023 at 10:49 AM, Sunleader said:

Alot of Submarine Players would Love this. Because they never even use the Ping anyways.

In one aspect you've probably got a point :- players that rely on homing torpedoes like a crutch would probably struggle.

But good players wouldn't be affected that much - they ain't gonna miss something the rarely use.

In the middle you'd have players that used to use pings but then adapt to unguided torps like every other class.

And the sub still has the advantage of on-demand concealment (diving) provided they've managed their battery capacity.

Which is more flexible than smoke that has cooldowns & limited charges and isn't radar-proof.

 

So, as much I think the homing/ping mechanism (and its counter measures) has been poorly implemented, it could be argued removing it would be a buff for subs.

[BLUB__BLUB]

55 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

In one aspect you've probably got a point :- players that rely on homing torpedoes like a crutch would probably struggle.

But good players wouldn't be affected that much - they ain't gonna miss something the rarely use.

He certainly has a point. I think what they should do is buff the subs by giving them 100% flooding chance. 
But it will be hard to "balance" this for WeeGee. They rather have 100 people doing chip damage, than 10 doing mega-whammies every now and then. 

Still, I think THAT is what subs should be like. High risk, high reward. Not the low-risk-troll-everything that they are now. 

[SmegTheNoob]

Wargaming can shove Subs where the sun don't shine.

Sick and tired of this pathetic SH__ SH__.

 

Company of Heroes 3 has just come out.

I just cannot be bothered to play this pathetic game any more.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Would they though?

 

Yep.

 

1 hour ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Didn't you say earlier that good players rarely use sonar pings to avoid giving away their presence & position?

 

Thats why I Specified "Good Players" and in the other Statement "Average Players"

Their Results and their Ability to Deal with certain Mechanics are exceedingly Different.

 

1 hour ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

In one aspect you've probably got a point :- players that rely on homing torpedoes like a crutch would probably struggle.

But good players wouldn't be affected that much - they ain't gonna miss something the rarely use.

In the middle you'd have players that used to use pings but then adapt to unguided torps like every other class.

 

And here is the thing.

WG Balances by Spreadsheet.

And Spreadsheet is 90% the Results from Average Players. Not of Good Players.

If You got 9000 Players that completely Suck on Submarines now thanks to being entirely unable to do anything.

And 1000 Players that can make it Work. But not really better than other Ships.

Then Your Average Result is Horrible and WG will Buff that Class HARD.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

And the sub still has the advantage of on-demand concealment (diving) provided they've managed their battery capacity.

More flexible than smoke which has cooldowns & limited charges and isn't radar-proof.

 

US Subs can Dive about as long as a Single US DDs Smoke. So Yeah No. Not happening.

And the Cooldown wont even start unless You go out of it.

Frankly. A US DD is far more Flexible.

 

Also. Radar Prove is only if You constantly Dive. Which with your like 3-4 Minutes of Divetime You just cant.

And unlike a DD You neither have the Ordnance to Spray at the Enemy from Range. Nor do You have the Speed and Maneuverability to Quickly Dash in and out of Radar Range.

 

 

1 hour ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

So, as much I think the homing/ping mechanism (and its counter measures) has been poorly implemented, it could be argued removing it would be a buff for subs.

 

You can Argue all You want.

But let me Ask You Honestly and Straight to the Face.

 

Do You Really think. The Average Results for Submarines would stay the same or even Increase if WG Removed Homing Torps without applying other Balancing Changes ?

 

Because otherwise You can Guarantee that WG will Immediately move in to Buff Submarines so Hard that the Average Results go back up. And the Result will now be Subs that the Average Players will be able to get Results with and which are then massively Overpowered for Good Players.

 

Basicly You would have another case like CVs. Which due to Average Players not being able to Deal with the Changes and thus Dropping Results. Constantly resulted in CVs getting Buffed up again. Thus now being in a Position where the Average Potato can get Results with it. While Good Players can Dominate a Match.

[NewHorizons_1]

7 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And here is the thing.

WG Balances by Spreadsheet.

And Spreadsheet is 90% the Results from Average Players. Not of Good Players.

If You got 9000 Players that completely Suck on Submarines now thanks to being entirely unable to do anything.

And 1000 Players that can make it Work. But not really better than other Ships.

Then Your Average Result is Horrible and WG will Buff that Class HARD.

Yup, that would be my fear too. Bad players not being able to adapt and making an effective buff appear, statistically, as a nerf.

So, WG would end up buffing subs twice.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing to get rid of ping/homing.

I'm actually arguing to keep it (even though I really don't like it) because I can see what the (unlikely) consequences of removing it, would be.

 

Yes pings are annoying, but I kinda just grit my teeth and grumble something along the lines of "at least it's a way for the sub to indicate its presence".

[Wackford]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:55 AM, SmegTheNoob said:

You know, I am past caring about all the bull____ rhetoric that you come out with. So in the future, I will just ignore all your pathetic trolling comments.

 

As for all your answers, yet again you do not know what you are talking about.

 

Also as for your pathetic suggestion that I go and play Submarines. I have told you many times that I have NO intention of playing Submarines ever.

I will never play any stupid Submarine, and if I want to play a good rendition of Submarine game play, I will just go and play my copy of U-Boat or Silent Hunter 3,4 or 5. I have them all. I even played Silent Service 2 on my Amiga back in the 80's, or was it my Atari ST or even my Spectrum Plus 3. Not that you would have any clue as to what they are. 

 

Oh and by the way, you really should go away and address your atrocious spelling. Prince of Whales indeed lol.

You should take a look at Wolf Pack on Steam. It's actually better than Silent Hunter 5.

[Cyberstorm1981]

want some feedback HOW IN GODS NAME DONT YOU SEE T10 PREMIUMS WITH 6KM ASW IS JUST USELESS AGAINST SUBS WHO PING YOU ALL THE TIME AND SHOTGUN YOU WHOLE BATTLE ........WHEN DO YOU GONNA OPEN YOUR EYES WARGAMING AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ???? WHOLE BATTLES I GOT PINGED ALL THE TIME  SHOTGUNNED ALL THE TIME AND T10 SUBS KNOW VERY WELL WE HAVE 6KM MAX ON OUR ASW IF THEY STAY 8-9 KM AWAY FROM US WE JUST LIVING TARGETS WHO CANT DO ANNYTHING ABOUT IT ......SUBS T10 JUST LAUGHING US OUT IF I PLAY OHIO IM THE NUMBER  1 TARGED EVERY BATTLE FOR SUBS....AND DONT COME WITH YOUR BLA BLA BLA GIT GUD AND THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TOO DEFEND AGAINST SUB....IF I PLAY WITH OHIO IM USELEES AGAINST SUBS .....DO YOU EVEN REALISE I GO 30 KNOTS AND CANT EVEN GET AWAY BECAUSE THAT SUB UNDERWATER SAILS LIKE A SPEEDBOAT ........IN REAL LIFE  SUBS DID 7KNOTS NOT 26 HOW BROOKEN IS SUBS THAN GO PLAY LEGO MAYBE THAT FIT BETTER TOO YOUR COMPANY

[Panzer_Guido]

ah, another one of the "vocal minority" that wants to take the crutches from those that really need them.

Also historical references only count if they support the sub players opinion. Everybody knows that. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 2/25/2023 at 3:04 PM, Cyberstorm1981 said:

DO YOU EVEN REALISE I GO 30 KNOTS AND CANT EVEN GET AWAY BECAUSE THAT SUB UNDERWATER SAILS LIKE A SPEEDBOAT

Mainly, this. Even some DDs cannot outrun the things. 

[Spearhawk1969]

I been wondering about protection from the target seeking torpedoes.

They are guided by ping, yes, but when a sub can ping 3 or 4 times in 15 seconds

and you can only "clear" one of those, then what?

It would be recomended that the anti-target seeking decoys be implemented 
as well as a counter to the allowans of subs to ping that many times

OR make it so subs can only ping once per a LONG cd.

 

There was counter measures , and it would be awesome to introduce those.

The German T5 torpedoes were countered by Allied introduction of the Foxer noise maker.^[3]

[SmegTheNoob]

2 hours ago, Spearhawk1969 said:

I been wondering about protection from the target seeking torpedoes.

They are guided by ping, yes, but when a sub can ping 3 or 4 times in 15 seconds

and you can only "clear" one of those, then what?

It would be recomended that the anti-target seeking decoys be implemented 
as well as a counter to the allowans of subs to ping that many times

OR make it so subs can only ping once per a LONG cd.

 

There was counter measures , and it would be awesome to introduce those.

The German T5 torpedoes were countered by Allied introduction of the Foxer noise maker.^[3]

Exactly buddy.

Its a waste of time countering any ping with your damage control.

The Sub will just ping you again, but your DCP is still on cooldown.

Plus even if you avoid the torps, the Sub will just send more torps your way in double quick time.

 

I logged into the game earlier, played a couple of Coop games, and then thought to myself "You know, I just cannot be bothered to play any more".

[Sunleader]

4 hours ago, Spearhawk1969 said:

I been wondering about protection from the target seeking torpedoes.

They are guided by ping, yes, but when a sub can ping 3 or 4 times in 15 seconds

and you can only "clear" one of those, then what?

It would be recomended that the anti-target seeking decoys be implemented 
as well as a counter to the allowans of subs to ping that many times

OR make it so subs can only ping once per a LONG cd.

 

There was counter measures , and it would be awesome to introduce those.

The German T5 torpedoes were countered by Allied introduction of the Foxer noise maker.^[3]

 

Wont happen.

Simple Balancing Issue.

If they added more effective counterneasures. They would need to balance that.

If the Countermeasure reduced Homing Torp hits by 50% them Homing Torps would be buffed to do Double the Damage.

[SuperDare83]

I feel the same, every match CV and two subs, no fun to play at all. 
I think player numbers/games will be going down rapidly as nearly all my clan mates are saying the same and playing less

i hope WG listens and looks again at balancing subs and cvs (particularly the super cvs) otherwise I think this game is finished 

[SurfaceFish]

54 minutes ago, SuperDare83 said:

i hope WG listens and looks again at balancing subs and cvs (particularly the super cvs) otherwise I think this game is finished 

I fear that is a forlorn hope. WG don't care what current players, especially those older ones thinks. It's model works by constantly attract new players to this game. Those new players have no idea what the game was like before CV rework; commander skill rework; economic bonus rework; removal of flags for achievements, and game without subs.

 

What we are complaining is NORMAL to those players, in their eyes WG have no miscommunication problem! 

 

If you and your clan stopped playing, there are new players taking your places. Now they might be dog sh*t with 45% WR playing T10 and superships. But when did WG cared about balanced match making?

[Spearhawk1969]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Wont happen.

Simple Balancing Issue.

If they added more effective counterneasures. They would need to balance that.

If the Countermeasure reduced Homing Torp hits by 50% them Homing Torps would be buffed to do Double the Damage.

I dunno about it never happening, I remember a time when CV could one shot dd's on regular basis, nowadays they barely manage to kill a dd in 5-8 shots.
So it could happen that either torp damage be lowers to being as meaningless as torps on cv's damage or some other countermeasure.

OR..... give every ship the automatic sub defence that cv's have, now THAT would be interesting and sub killing(j/k) ;)

[Sunleader]

4 minutes ago, Spearhawk1969 said:

I dunno about it never happening, I remember a time when CV could one shot dd's on regular basis, nowadays they barely manage to kill a dd in 5-8 shots.
So it could happen that either torp damage be lowers to being as meaningless as torps on cv's damage or some other countermeasure.

OR..... give every ship the automatic sub defence that cv's have, now THAT would be interesting and sub killing(j/k) ;)

 

Fallacy.

This was only Possible very Early after the CV Rework. And even WG itself said that this was not yet Finished. Nerfing CV Damage very Quickly and very Strongly because CVs according to their Spreadsheet was Overperforming Massively. 

But Submarines according to WG are Finished. They are no longer in Testing. And according to WG their Performance is actually on the lower End in the Spreadsheet. So if anything they would actually need to be Buffed according to WG.

 

So this is not the same Situation.

 

 

As for the automatic Sub Defence. I have not yet Encountered that. So I cant really say anything about it.

Going for the CV is Generally useless for a Sub because he is so far in the Rear that by the time You get to him the Match is Over. So usually this isnt really something that happens.

But I also Doubt You will get that.

For the same Reason as why they wont give you a Decoy for the Torps.

It would simply mean Submarines would need to be Buffed in Response. So there is just no reason for it.

Even CVs getting it seems to be more of an response to some Peoples Ridiculous behavior of abandoning the Team and basicly just diving all the to the Enemy CV to try and Kill him. Even if it means they dont do anything for Half the Match until they get there.

[lup3s]

On 2/24/2023 at 8:51 PM, BLUB__BLUB said:

He certainly has a point. I think what they should do is buff the subs by giving them 100% flooding chance.

 

100% flood chance when the DCP also has to be used to clear the ping ? WG balans department may have a job for you.

 

How about first adding an additional consumable to counter the Submarine's pings - then the 100% flooding chance could be viable.

[SurfaceFish]

💯 denotation chance with torpedo hit if ping is cleared with DCP please, including ignoring denotation flag too!

[SmegTheNoob]

3 hours ago, SurfaceFish said:

💯 denotation chance with torpedo hit if ping is cleared with DCP please, including ignoring denotation flag too!

What do you mean "detonation chance"? There is no such thing in this game.

If the Torpedo hits your ship, it will always detonate.

[SurfaceFish]

4 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

What do you mean "detonation chance"?

One sub torpedo hit sinks you if you already used DCP to clear the ping no matter how much health you have left or if you using detonation flag!!

 

WG just needs to invest in keyboard companies as they will have a spike in sells after WG implement this much needed feature requested by the silent majority of players! Plus it will rise the basic xp of the average sub players to a new hight!

 

This feature will not apply to sub and CV of course. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

8 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

What do you mean "detonation chance"? There is no such thing in this game.

If the Torpedo hits your ship, it will always detonate.

.... he is talking about the ship detonating.