General Submarines related discussions

[SmegTheNoob]

3 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Forum = 5-10% playerbase in every game 

 

First post "game is dieing if xyz does not change" was in 2016....game did not die

 

Also i get somebody is unahppy about something. But do we need 200 pages of same all arguments that will not change (not saying all argumenst are invalid)

It does not matter one jot, the percentage of players that post on the forums.

But, please do stop arguing on points that have nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

[Andrewbassg]

1 hour ago, Wackford said:

All I wanted was a snorkel.

I think, we all got one...

[TheNubination]

21 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Forum = 5-10% playerbase in every game 

 

First post "game is dieing if xyz does not change" was in 2016....game did not die

 

Also i get somebody is unahppy about something. But do we need 200 pages of same all arguments that will not change (not saying all argumenst are invalid)

Yup. Tbh subs were more fun and skill based when you had to ping two sides of the ship and when subs could see each other under water and kill each other more readily. Its its own whining in a way but less whine would have probably produced a more desirable end product actually. 

Id have that old system, these visible pings, a bit slower subs and thats it. 

Now, due to all the whining back and forth they are near unkillable nerfed destroyers whose expected damage output is so much lower than any other class while being a total pain in the [edited]with  0 skill homing torpedoes.

[SmegTheNoob]

2 hours ago, TheNubination said:

Yup. Tbh subs were more fun and skill based when you had to ping two sides of the ship and when subs could see each other under water and kill each other more readily. Its its own whining in a way but less whine would have probably produced a more desirable end product actually. 

Id have that old system, these visible pings, a bit slower subs and thats it. 

Now, due to all the whining back and forth they are near unkillable nerfed destroyers whose expected damage output is so much lower than any other class while being a total pain in the [edited]with  0 skill homing torpedoes.

I take it you mean when you had to ping the front of the ship, and then the back of the ship to get a decent lock for the homing torps?

That probably was a better way of sonar locking.

 

But I still want rid of homing torps altogether.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

2 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

I take it you mean when you had to ping the front of the ship, and then the back of the ship to get a decent lock for the homing torps?

That probably was a better way of sonar locking.

 

But I still want rid of homing torps altogether.

 

Me too. I have a really funny clip that shows how useless homing torps are. A sub pinged my DD and all of them missed me reversing. It's hilarious 

I will upload it soon 

[TheNubination]

3 hours ago, SmegTheNoob said:

I take it you mean when you had to ping the front of the ship, and then the back of the ship to get a decent lock for the homing torps?

That probably was a better way of sonar locking.

 

But I still want rid of homing torps altogether.

 

Ya boi.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

11 hours ago, SmegTheNoob said:

 

 

But I still want rid of homing torps altogether.

 

I see this thing happening soon 😅🤣😂😂🤣😅

[Sunleader]

I would Prefer Acoustic Torps.

True Fire and Forget Torps that Automaticly Seek Targets. But can be stopped from Homing by setting the Engine to 0 as the Torpedo wont find any Sound Source.

Would give an Interesting Angle to the Game. ^^

Albeit thats likely way too Complicated for the Average WoWs Player to Understand. So Yeah Good Luck with that Idea I guess.....

[lovelacebeer]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

I would Prefer Acoustic Torps.

True Fire and Forget Torps that Automaticly Seek Targets. But can be stopped from Homing by setting the Engine to 0 as the Torpedo wont find any Sound Source.

Would give an Interesting Angle to the Game. ^^

Albeit thats likely way too Complicated for the Average WoWs Player to Understand. So Yeah Good Luck with that Idea I guess.....

Sadly another opportunity missed with the whole submarine project, if WG had done that kind of homing torps you could also fit surface ships with acoustic decoys like Foxer. 
 

It would have made for a much more interesting and potentially enjoyable experience of gameplay for both parties. 

[Sunleader]

9 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

Sadly another opportunity missed with the whole submarine project, if WG had done that kind of homing torps you could also fit surface ships with acoustic decoys like Foxer. 
 

It would have made for a much more interesting and potentially enjoyable experience of gameplay for both parties. 

 

True. If nothing else a Foxer Decoy instead of the Airstrike Depth Charges would have been pretty Great.

Albeit then again. Yet another Consumable.... WG dislikes doing that thanks to the Average Player already being overburdened with the existing ones.

Heck 90% of the Playerbase is often not even using their Depth Charge Airstrike.

Its almost Hilarious how a Submarine can sometimes be Instantly killed as every Unloads Depth Charge Airstrikes on the moment it uses a Single Ping or is Spotted by Radar etc.

While other Times a Submarine can be Pinging Ships for Minutes and the only Ship to even try using the Depth Charge Strikes is the Pinged Ship and even that only after being hit by Torps.

 

 

 

 

[lovelacebeer]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

True. If nothing else a Foxer Decoy instead of the Airstrike Depth Charges would have been pretty Great.

Albeit then again. Yet another Consumable.... WG dislikes doing that thanks to the Average Player already being overburdened with the existing ones.

Heck 90% of the Playerbase is often not even using their Depth Charge Airstrike.

Its almost Hilarious how a Submarine can sometimes be Instantly killed as every Unloads Depth Charge Airstrikes on the moment it uses a Single Ping or is Spotted by Radar etc.

While other Times a Submarine can be Pinging Ships for Minutes and the only Ship to even try using the Depth Charge Strikes is the Pinged Ship and even that only after being hit by Torps.

 

 

 

 

Sadly true there is such a wealth of material available that was missed out with the whole submarine project, such as Foxer, Seiglinde or M24 mines to name just a few. 

 

 Those of us who truly love submarines in history and submarine games were dearly disappointed at their absence here. 
 

As for the ability of the common playerbase well that can’t really surprise any of us longer term players, or WG for that matter. 
 

 

[SmegTheNoob]

17 minutes ago, lovelacebeer said:

 

 Those of us who truly love submarines in history and submarine games were dearly disappointed at their absence here. 
 

Submarines in WoWS are nothing like they were in real life history.

They are also nothing like how Submarines are handled in any other Submarine games.

 

Being Historical would mean NO stupid homing torpedoes and Submarines would NOT be able to out run anything on the surface.

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

Submarines in WoWS are nothing like they were in real life history.

They are also nothing like how Submarines are handled in any other Submarine games.

 

Being Historical would mean NO stupid homing torpedoes and Submarines would NOT be able to out run anything on the surface.

 

I See You still dont mind Lying right into everyones Face. Either on Purpose or due to Lack of Knowledge....

 

The only thing You are Right about is that Subs in the Game are not Historically Accurate.

Same as every other Ship in the Game lol.

Beyond that You are Amazingly Wrong tough.

 

 

 

1.

Actually German Submarines did use Homing Torpedoes in Reality.

Quite Effectively as well as they did not need a Ping or something like that. They could Literally be Fired in the Direction of the Enemy and would then Home in on their Propulsion.

 

 

2.

Speed in the Game is Highly Unrealistic to begin with.

Not sure You Realize this. But in Reality. Your beloved American Dreadnought BBs which You constantly bring up as Examples against Submarines. Would not even be able to reach a Capture Point within the Matchs Timelimit.

In Reality the Colorado for example had a Max Speed of 21 Knots.

Mind You. This was by Basicly Burning the Engines on Overload Damaging the Engines and also making Maneuvering Impossible for most Part.

But that aside. This means Colorado could go 39km in an Hour.

The Maximum Timelimit of a Match is 20 Minutes.

So Colorado assuming it would Start at Full Speed. Would basicly manage to Cover only 13km Distance.

And in Reality. BBs would never even try to Follow a Sub. And they would not be able to anyways. Because they would have no idea where it is.

So a Submarine not being able to Outrun any Ships is at best a Theoretical Idea.

Which is not Surprising considering that Submarines Attacked and then Escaped. Meaning in Reality they Generally managed to get away from Enemies.

 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

1 hour ago, SmegTheNoob said:

Submarines in WoWS are nothing like they were in real life history.

They are also nothing like how Submarines are handled in any other Submarine games.

 

Being Historical would mean NO stupid homing torpedoes and Submarines would NOT be able to out run anything on the surface.

Also in RL :

 

DD do not have stealth

DD do not have unlimited number of torpedo sets....ussuyl they had 1-2 sets

CV do not have unlimited plane numbers

none of ship could survive 100 direkt hits no matter the caliber of guns

No heal in RL

no repair party that shuts down flood

no unlimited ammo

no stealth for any class

 

etc etc etc....you get the picture

[159Hunter]

2 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Also in RL :

 

DD do not have stealth

Yes they do. The enemy still needs to spot them to fire on them, in the old days with the naked eye, nowadays with technological stuff.

Remaining outside of detection range = stealth.

 

 

[SplowaMapper]

3 godziny temu, SmegTheNoob napisał:

Submarines in WoWS are nothing like they were in real life history.

They are also nothing like how Submarines are handled in any other Submarine games.

 

Being Historical would mean NO stupid homing torpedoes and Submarines would NOT be able to out run anything on the surface.

Well, you're partially right.

Subs were certainly not able to match surface units in an open sea combat, although homing torps are historical, in ww2 Germany used homing torps for their submarines.

You kinda forgot that it's a game, if everything in wows was historical this game wouldn't have any sense, for example if aiming system was historical, bbs would probably score 1-2 hits per battle, if ship armor was historical, then Yamato would be invincible to any shells ingame, if cv's were historical then after about 4-5 plane attacks they would run out of functional planes, if amount of torpedoes was historical then dds could go for 3 torpedo attacks at best, and then they would run out of torps.

It's just impossible to make such a game historical without losing the gameplay element.

[SplowaMapper]

Still in my opinion homing torps should be removed from subs, they are just too overpowered.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

10 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Yes they do. The enemy still needs to spot them to fire on them, in the old days with the naked eye, nowadays with technological stuff.

Remaining outside of detection range = stealth.

 

 

5,5 km in open water....BBs 12 km on open water?

[SmegTheNoob]

1 minute ago, SplowaMapper said:

Well, you're partially right.

Subs were certainly not able to match surface units in an open sea combat, although homing torps are historical, in ww2 Germany used homing torps for their submarines.

You kinda forgot that it's a game, if everything in wows was historical this game wouldn't have any sense, for example if aiming system was historical, bbs would probably score 1-2 hits per battle, if ship armor was historical, then Yamato would be invincible to any shells ingame, if cv's were historical then after about 4-5 plane attacks they would run out of functional planes, if amount of torpedoes was historical then dds could go for 3 torpedo attacks at best, and then they would run out of torps.

It's just impossible to make such a game historical without losing the gameplay element.

I know that technically speaking homing torps are historical so to speak.

But the fact remains that homing torps were a rarity in WW2.

They were not present in great numbers, and the ones that were used, were not that reliable.

 

Same goes for normal torps being unreliable. That is why I suggested a random failure mechanic could be put into the game maybe. Something like a 20% chance that one torp out of a spread of torps fired, ends up being a dud.

There were loads of dud torps occurringn in WW2 especially in the earlier part of the war.

 

Same goes for the speed of Subs.

I know that Wargaming cannot put Sub speed at the historical accurate rates. If they did that, no Sub would ever go above 20 knots on the surface and 10 knots underwater.

So, Wargaming have to make Subs go faster. But a Sub should NOT be able to out run a DD. Some of these proposed Soviet Subs, will be able to outrun most DD's in the game on the surface, if they enter the game in their current state.

 

In my opinion, Homing Torps should be removed.

There would be no need to overload the Damage Control consumable to mitigate a sonar lock.

Normal DD torp mechanics should be used by Subs.

Some Sub surface speeds should be nerfed.

Higher tier DD's should be equipped with the forward firing Hedgehog depth charge mechanic.

Oh, and the range of some air dropped ASW planes should be raised.

[Wackford]

On 10/23/2020 at 7:08 AM, Bindolaf_Werebane said:

Seems they improved submarine gameplay tremendously, I'm glad. The danger of the game feeling emptier I understand. Maybe an oxygen mechanic to force submarines to surface would be a good thing. Also, re: DDs. They should be absolutely deadly, subs really shouldn't have a prayer against them (other than diving or a wild, stray torpedo, perhaps).

I agree. Subs are OK now. There's still lots of interesting things that could be done with them though. One of the things I'd like to see is battery depletion affected by electric engine usage. When submerged and running on the electric engines at the slowest speed, the battery should last longer, and get depleted faster when running at full speed.

 

It would be nice also to have the snorkel working on the U-190, so that it can use diesels at periscope. This would of course have to be balanced with something, such as reduced concealment, especially on radar.

[bouncer8409]

Just for information, on whiuch planet are the subs are good addition to the game ?

[bouncer8409]

Can someone explain why sonar which was invented to find subs does not find them in this game ?

 

[SmegTheNoob]

2 minutes ago, bouncer8409 said:

Just for information, on whiuch planet are the subs are good addition to the game ?

They must be on Fullers, because they ain't on this Earth lol.

[Sunleader]

5 hours ago, SmegTheNoob said:

I know that technically speaking homing torps are historical so to speak.

But the fact remains that homing torps were a rarity in WW2.

They were not present in great numbers, and the ones that were used, were not that reliable.

 

Same goes for normal torps being unreliable. That is why I suggested a random failure mechanic could be put into the game maybe. Something like a 20% chance that one torp out of a spread of torps fired, ends up being a dud.

There were loads of dud torps occurringn in WW2 especially in the earlier part of the war.

 

Same goes for the speed of Subs.

I know that Wargaming cannot put Sub speed at the historical accurate rates. If they did that, no Sub would ever go above 20 knots on the surface and 10 knots underwater.

So, Wargaming have to make Subs go faster. But a Sub should NOT be able to out run a DD. Some of these proposed Soviet Subs, will be able to outrun most DD's in the game on the surface, if they enter the game in their current state.

 

In my opinion, Homing Torps should be removed.

There would be no need to overload the Damage Control consumable to mitigate a sonar lock.

Normal DD torp mechanics should be used by Subs.

Some Sub surface speeds should be nerfed.

Higher tier DD's should be equipped with the forward firing Hedgehog depth charge mechanic.

Oh, and the range of some air dropped ASW planes should be raised.

 

More False Statements.

 

1.

Germany Issued over 700 Homing Torpedoes which Sank nearly 80 Ships.

Thats Far from being a Rarity.

Homing Torpedoes were a Regular Issued Weapon that Saw more Naval Battles than most Ships in this Game lol

 

2.

Again. In Reality EVERYTHING was Unreliable.

Engine Failure, Turrets going out of Action etc etc.

Fun Fact. One Reason why the Bismarck was able to just Massacre the Hood. Was because the Prince of Whales had most of its Guns out of Action due to Technical Issuues.

So if You gave Submarine Torpedoes a Failure Chance for Realism. You would need to give Random Failure Chances to EVERYTHING in the Game.

Which is a Horribly Annoying and Not Fun Game Mechanic Nobody wants.

And lets Face it. You wanting it is not because of Realism. Its because You hate Submarines and want to make them Bad so People dont Play them....

 

3.

Subs in the Game Outrunning DDs is a Rarity at Best. And pretty much never Happens.

The Fastest Submarines in the Game using all Skills Available are barely Capable of being a little Faster than the Slowest DDs in the Game not using their Skills and Consumables.

The Average Submarine even with Skills only Manages a Top Speed of 33 Knots. Which is Equal to very Slow DDs Base Speed.

The Average DD in the Game without Skills or even using his Engine Boost has a Top Speed of 37 Knots.

 

4.

You could also just be Honest for a Change and Say that in Your Opinion Submarines Should be Removed.

Because the Changes You Suggest would basicly mean Submarines are completely Unplayable and Useless.

Which is likely 100% Intentional as You dont want Submarines in the Game.

 

 

 

Just now, bouncer8409 said:

Can someone explain why sonar which was invented to find subs does not find them in this game ?

 

 

Sonar in the Game does Find Submarines Actually.

And just like everything else in the Game. It is very Unrealistic in its Capabilities.

Historically. For a Destroyer Equipped with Sonar to actually have a Solid Contact on a Submarine he had to be within 1500m of it and had to Run at Reduced Engine Power and no other Ships or Disturbances in the Water.

Going at High Speed would cause Soundwave Send into the Water by his own Propulsion to Interfere with the Soundwave Send as Sonar Ping and thus Reduce the Range due to Dispersing the Sonar Waves.

Finding a Submarine during an Ongoing Surface Battle was effectively Impossible because the Water being constantly Stirred up from Explosions and several Other Ships creating Disturbances would completely throw off the Sonar Pings Send out into the Water. Making it Practically Impossible for the Sonar to tell wether what Sound Wave hit it was actually a Contact from its own Sonar Ping or just a Shockwave from a Shell going off.

Nowdays with Digitial Frequence Tuning this is somewhat better as a Computer can Filter out everything not the exact Frequence used by the Ping and thus massively Reduce Noise from all other Sources.

But even Nowdays Finding a Submarine with Sonar during a Surface Battle would be quite Difficult as the Sound Wave Traveling from the Sonar Underwater would still be disturbed by such events thus creating alot of Inaccuracy.

 

Mind You. A Solid Contact still didnt mean You had a Pinpoint Location on the Submarine. You merely got the Direction the Submarine was in and a Rough Estimate of the Distance.

 

Oh and in Reality. The Depth didnt matter too much for that.

So this is the Range You would also get for a Submarine at Periscope Depth.

 

 

In the Game meanwhile. Sonar will Pinpoint a Submarine Accurately on 2km away even if You are Running at Full Speed and have Battleship Shells Impacting around.

And if a Sub is at Periscope Depth. You will Find it in the Full 4-6km Range of the Sonar.

 

 

 

So Yeah. Lets make Sonar in the Game Realistic.

Basicly making Sonar in the Game Realistic.

Would mean that if a Sub is within 1500m of You. You get a Ping once every 10 Seconds. And this Ping would basicly give you the same Indicator for a Submarine that You currently get if the Submarine Pings You.

But only if You are going at Half Speed. And only if there is no other Ships around. And only if You are not under Fire.

If any of these is the case. The Range would be Reduced to 500m or less.

 

 

Have Fun ever Finding a Submarine with that lol.

[BLUB__BLUB]

Ooooowoowwoooo look 200 pages already... great success!