General Submarines related discussions

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I just witnessed two DD's getting sunk by a single sub they were chasing for 5 minutes lol. All 3 in a far corner of the map with nobody around rofl. This sub design and playerbase, what a combo 

[TheNubination]

5 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

Look, more homing torps for you guys. Better learn how to deal with them or just take the easy route out. All this moaning is leading you nowhere.

These submarines are exactly what they are supposed to be here though, slow, weak, rapidly reloading torpedo tubes. What a wonderful addition. 

The homing nature of things is a problem.  But it is what it is. 

How do you best dodge when you're pinged in a fast ship? Is it better to be pinged in the rear or the front if the sub is behind you? I imagine the rear as you can swing your [a..ft]more, right? 
Someone should make a tutorial on this if they can be bothered. 

[TheNubination]

On 1/28/2023 at 2:47 AM, Juuzaam said:

This is only partial true. We got 2 different kind of sub marine players. The avg horrible super losicum that starts pinging at the very first moment and the actual thinking human. The pinging dented genius is something you can handle when you know something about subs, homing torps and how subs position or move. I got my knowledge stolen from, Twitch: Ivan and Triar, take it or not, it worked for me. It didnt felt like playing subs to understand anything further was needed. (Which was not possible in the same way for Carriers). Against these weaker players, dodging is often possible, even killing them is an option. Unless you end in these checkmate situations where you just get rather accidantly sucker punched by a sub. These situations on their own are already a problem. But the moment someone thinking plays a sub, the gameplay changes completly. You dont see any pings for 10 minutes, just a random wall of torpedos and a dev strike note in chat. And there is no way you can handle this. You can just hope that he takes to long to catch you or he messes up something, but forcing a mistake and punishing it? No.

 

You're not supposed to counter it so much as be within a combined fleet action or keep tabs on the subs movement together with your carrier or your ships with hydro or by simply looking out for pings, which you admittedly cant always do. 
The best you can hope for is that you're not always the target and that if and when you are the target that you're close enough to your allies that they can then destroy the sub. 


Of course the problem with this is that like 20% of players are constantly muted in the game including myself, 20% don't listen to anything that is said ever, 20% don't communicate and /or have chat turned off and the rest are still not always going to tryhard every random game.

I like playing ranked for this reason because there are fewer players and at least a little bit of team-effort even early on. But subs are truly made for big battles and the lack of communication is hurting the sub hunting effort. 




The argument is the same though, as for the people crying about carriers or even as for when you sometimes get hit by Shima torps or what ever. And the real answer is ultimately far more simple:

 

Stop having a big Ego and accept that if you're being targeted and can't target what ever is targeting you, target something else. You don't have to have "revenge" or "counter" who ever is killing you. Even though the game could be better and the playerbase could be more communicative the ultimate issue you have is your ego. 

[SmegTheNoob]

5 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

Look, more homing torps for you guys. Better learn how to deal with them or just take the easy route out. All this moaning is leading you nowhere.

Just yet another reason to stay away from random battles.

There is literally, no point in playing them when you get all these pathetic subs in the queue.

This once great game has now become a complete joke.

[SmegTheNoob]

2 hours ago, TheNubination said:

 

You're not supposed to counter it so much as be within a combined fleet action or keep tabs on the subs movement together with your carrier or your ships with hydro or by simply looking out for pings, which you admittedly cant always do. 
The best you can hope for is that you're not always the target and that if and when you are the target that you're close enough to your allies that they can then destroy the sub. 


Of course the problem with this is that like 20% of players are constantly muted in the game including myself, 20% don't listen to anything that is said ever, 20% don't communicate and /or have chat turned off and the rest are still not always going to tryhard every random game.

I like playing ranked for this reason because there are fewer players and at least a little bit of team-effort even early on. But subs are truly made for big battles and the lack of communication is hurting the sub hunting effort. 




The argument is the same though, as for the people crying about carriers or even as for when you sometimes get hit by Shima torps or what ever. And the real answer is ultimately far more simple:

 

Stop having a big Ego and accept that if you're being targeted and can't target what ever is targeting you, target something else. You don't have to have "revenge" or "counter" who ever is killing you. Even though the game could be better and the playerbase could be more communicative the ultimate issue you have is your ego. 

But what if you cannot fight back against that Sub?

Say your in a slow BB at tier 5 or 6.

Your ASW Air Strike range is only 6 km, maybe less.

A Sub sits at 7 km from you and constantly ping / torps you.

What do you do?

 

I tell you what I do.

If there is 1 Sub on  each team, I note where our Sub spawns, because you can bet that  the enemy Sub will spawn opposite our Sub.

I then go and steer to the other side of the map, no matter where the rest of our team are going.

Its a bit harder if there are 2 Subs on each team though.

Now ain't that fun and engaging gameplay NOT?

[TheNubination]

7 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

But what if you cannot fight back against that Sub?

Say your in a slow BB at tier 5 or 6.

Your ASW Air Strike range is only 6 km, maybe less.

A Sub sits at 7 km from you and constantly ping / torps you.

What do you do?

 

I tell you what I do.

If there is 1 Sub on  each team, I note where our Sub spawns, because you can bet that  the enemy Sub will spawn opposite our Sub.

I then go and steer to the other side of the map, no matter where the rest of our team are going.

Its a bit harder if there are 2 Subs on each team though.

Now ain't that fun and engaging gameplay NOT?

You're supposed to retreat while faster cruisers and destroyers move up. 
But either because you're soloing at extreme range or because your team mates are arseholes that might not happen. 

So while the game offers solutions, the community doesn't really apply them.  And that is partly a design problem in how it (dis)encourages teamplay but also partly a membership problem.

 

 

Also obviously, the submarines (except for the above mentioned british ones) are flawed because dedicated ASW units are often slower than them which is just fucked.  So you have a justification to be frustrated but not because you personally cant counter them.

[SmegTheNoob]

3 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

You're supposed to retreat while faster cruisers and destroyers move up. 
But either because you're soloing at extreme range or because your team mates are arseholes that might not happen. 

So while the game offers solutions, the community doesn't really apply them.  And that is partly a design problem in how the game (dis)encourages but also partly a membership problem.

 

 

Also obviously, the submarines (except for the above mentioned british ones) are flawed because dedicated ASW units are often slower than them which is just fucked.  So you have a justification to be frustrated but not because you personally cant counter them.

I agree that ASW is a heap of crap.

Esp the air dropped variety.

The flight time, drop time and detonating time are so slow that its easy for the Sub to move out of the way.

That is all assuming you spotted where the ping came from and spotted the stupid white banana on the surface in the first place.

I can count on one hand, how many Subs I have sunk with Air Drops, with not that many times that I have damaged a Sub with ASW.

 

Also, its not always a case of trying to retreat.

Remember that I am in a slow as hell BB.

 

Also, 1 or 2 Subs working together can totally control one of the caps.

Anybody that tries to take the cap back, gets nuked.

[TheNubination]

Yeah I know I experienced this in a game of my own recently. Just the sub knowing the range of my airdrops and constantly being outside of its range. Nobody is close so eventually I got torped down.  But again, thats a failure on my part and my team for not collaborating well enough, not intercepting that sub or something like that. 

[Dutchy_2019]

32 minutes ago, TheNubination said:

You're supposed to retreat while faster cruisers and destroyers move up. 
But either because you're soloing at extreme range or because your team mates are arseholes that might not happen. 

So while the game offers solutions, the community doesn't really apply them.  And that is partly a design problem in how it (dis)encourages teamplay but also partly a membership problem.

 

 

Also obviously, the submarines (except for the above mentioned british ones) are flawed because dedicated ASW units are often slower than them which is just fucked.  So you have a justification to be frustrated but not because you personally cant counter them.

 

Problem 1: In this scenario you are fully dependent on your own sub if that works or not. Because with the stupid implementation of submarines, what you are suggesting is EXACTLY what DDs and most cruisers should NOT do. If the enemy heavies pay attention (and cruisers), they will murder ANY ship moving up to kill the sub early. I have seen it often enough.

You only have two hopes: Your own sub actually plays for the team (90% does NOT) and actually has its ASW sonar available (not for the first 5 minutes), or the enemy submarine f-ups massively and you have some luck, and you get him with air-drops.

 

Problem 2: The 'solutions' everyone talks about are no solutions because they only work in highly specific / unique scenarios. To design an interaction around a 'solution' that if you have ANY understanding of your game and the community as a whole you SHOULD know (or you actually know) will rarely if ever happen under ANY circumstances is just extremely bad design. And the result is a product that just sucks the fun out of the game if you run into it. Note, btw, that in order to make subs 'work' and attractive enough for the majority of the player-base they have had to basically toss out the vast majority of rules / mechanics of interaction between the ship classes (or bias them heavily in favour of them): spotting, invisibility to hydro, no vulnerability to torpedoes except when on the surface, no accidental spotting between subs, stupid tankiness, homing, stupid reload, dolphining, stupid tankiness, crap ASW mechanics, the RNG ping locator (extremely misleading), optics issues when the sub is spotted just below the surface, stupid speed, and of course, an 'I can spot you for my team but you will not be known you are spotted'- button, and a stupid XP boost.

 

There is sooooo much wrong with submarines on a design level, it is laughable if it were not so sad. And the reason why the design has to be so bad is because the implementation of submarines in the game as is, is a square peg vs round hole problem.

 

Seriously, if there is a sub on your flank and your submarine is either worse than he is, or just a plain bad player who does not play for the team, your only solution as a surface ship is to just run, or pray the enemy on your flank is incompetent or consists of people who thrive on griefing their own team on a level that is rare even by WoWs standards.

 

 

 

 

[TheNubination]

7 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Problem 1: In this scenario you are fully dependent on your own sub if that works or not. Because with the stupid implementation of submarines, what you are suggesting is EXACTLY what DDs and most cruisers should NOT do. If the enemy heavies pay attention (and cruisers), they will murder ANY ship moving up to kill the sub early. 

 

 

 

Not if you retreat and they move up to where your backline was meaning you draw the sub into a pincer.  Cant bother with the rest.

[FloatingTarget]

Just had a game in my Duncan, got singled out by a sub and got up to make a cup of tea. Couldn't be bothered to deal with that crap. Nothing I could do, no matter how I turned, how fast I went or if I slowed down. Took a full salvo despite everything I did, they perfectly homed in on me because Sub players need easy mode. Took about 49k damage so I just left. I would rather take the karma hit than deal with this broken garbage.

 

That's the issue people have, a class of ship with no counter in a PvP game. Complete waste of time.

 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

20 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

Look, more homing torps for you guys. Better learn how to deal with them or just take the easy route out. All this moaning is leading you nowhere.

That's not "more", if t we get one of those in the game it means we do not have a German one. 

I'm just wondering what is 'acoustic' homing torpedoes. Are we supposed not to use the ships horn, or not shoot? 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

We absolutely need more but lower damage homing torpedo soup in the game lol.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

20 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That's not "more", if t we get one of those in the game it means we do not have a German one. 

I'm just wondering what is 'acoustic' homing torpedoes. Are we supposed not to use the ships horn, or not shoot? 

Nah it homes on engine sound. Obviously they call it that because it was called that irl too. It's not enough to kill the engine as those torps are active acoustic homing and passive. 

Meaning they either detect the ship by the sound they make or if they don't pick up the sound ping with their own sonar to home in.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 minute ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

Nah it homes on engine sound. Obviously they call it that because it was called that irl too. It's not enough to kill the engine as those torps are active acoustic homing and passive. 

Meaning they either detect the ship by the sound they make or if they don't pick up the sound ping with their own sonar to home in.

Oh so we're supposed not to try run away, and take it up the butt like a good boy. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

19 hours ago, Europizza said:

I just witnessed two DD's getting sunk by a single sub they were chasing for 5 minutes lol. All 3 in a far corner of the map with nobody around rofl. This sub design and playerbase, what a combo 

We had sort of that, me and a divvy both in DD were chasing a sub. 
Not in the corner tho and it was the endgame. But we could not get closer to him, he was ~just as fast.
He kept bobbing up/down and running away, we were both shooting him. 

I think we needed about 10 salvos each to finally sink him. 

Meanwhile he kept firing torps out of his butt. 

[Cammo1962]

22 hours ago, TheNubination said:

You're supposed to retreat while faster cruisers and destroyers move up. 
But either because you're soloing at extreme range or because your team mates are arseholes that might not happen. 

So while the game offers solutions, the community doesn't really apply them.  And that is partly a design problem in how it (dis)encourages teamplay but also partly a membership problem.

 

 

Also obviously, the submarines (except for the above mentioned british ones) are flawed because dedicated ASW units are often slower than them which is just fucked.  So you have a justification to be frustrated but not because you personally cant counter them.

You are talking of team work in WoWs that WG have alienated for the last 3 years so that will not happen 99,9% of the time.

[Cammo1962]

21 hours ago, TheNubination said:

Not if you retreat and they move up to where your backline was meaning you draw the sub into a pincer.  Cant bother with the rest.

Again you are talking about team work in WoWs that WG have alienated for the last 3 years so that wont happen 99,9% of the time.

[TheNubination]

25 minutes ago, Cammo1962 said:

Again you are talking about team work in WoWs that WG have alienated for the last 3 years so that wont happen 99,9% of the time.

yes but i mean anything can happen if you and everyone else help it happen.  

[Panzer_Guido]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:14 PM, TheNubination said:

You're supposed to retreat while faster cruisers and destroyers move up. 
But either because you're soloing at extreme range or because your team mates are arseholes that might not happen. 

So while the game offers solutions, the community doesn't really apply them.  And that is partly a design problem in how it (dis)encourages teamplay but also partly a membership problem.

 

 

Also obviously, the submarines (except for the above mentioned british ones) are flawed because dedicated ASW units are often slower than them which is just fucked.  So you have a justification to be frustrated but not because you personally cant counter them.

I love how the sub apologists give increasingly outlandish suggestions ala "why did you leave your cap, you are not supposed to push" and treat that as "proof" that sub is not unbalanced. 

 

First you wish they would read up what a "proof" is and that best case scenarios that leave out the entire enemy team as a factor and only work on some ships do not qualify. 

 

Probably a side effect of suddenly having such high WR / points per game in sub, which obviously cant be bias and has to be skill.

[TheNubination]

37 minutes ago, Panzer_Guido said:

I love how the sub apologists give increasingly outlandish suggestions ala "why did you leave your cap, you are not supposed to push" and treat that as "proof" that sub is not unbalanced. 

 

First you wish they would read up what a "proof" is and that best case scenarios that leave out the entire enemy team as a factor and only work on some ships do not qualify. 

 

Probably a side effect of suddenly having such high WR / points per game in sub, which obviously cant be bias and has to be skill.

You're supposed to win the game, nothing else.  So if not pushing in a situation where you're being pinged by a sub is winning the game then that's the solution.  Learn to change your mind.

[Panocek]

On 2/1/2023 at 9:11 PM, SmegTheNoob said:

But what if you cannot fight back against that Sub?

Say your in a slow BB at tier 5 or 6.

Your ASW Air Strike range is only 6 km, maybe less.

A Sub sits at 7 km from you and constantly ping / torps you.

What do you do?

All destroyers and number of cruisers have ASW with range of 0km and they don't have luxury of nice fat hp pool and usually effective torpedo belts.

 

Also how is that different from destroyer stalking your BB? She might lack homing torps, true, but torps are probably way more lethal than homing ones loaded with confetti.

23 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Oh so we're supposed not to try run away, and take it up the butt like a good boy. 

Blame Germans for entertaining idea of guided torpedoes and then fielding these in, uh, 1943?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

12 hours ago, TheNubination said:

You're supposed to win the game, nothing else.  So if not pushing in a situation where you're being pinged by a sub is winning the game then that's the solution.  Learn to change your mind.

Exactly. Now wait for him to tell you that winning is not what this game is about because it's not "fun".

 

[Panzer_Guido]

12 hours ago, TheNubination said:

You're supposed to win the game, nothing else.  So if not pushing in a situation where you're being pinged by a sub is winning the game then that's the solution.  Learn to change your mind.

cute. Suppose I could know that and I gave an "example". Read up what that is. You might learn something. Or we might think you misunderstood on purpose because your argument is so weak. (also completely disregarding the fact there are a lot of ships that just cant effectivly run away. But keep ignoring that as well. Makes your "argument" much stronk!)

[Sunleader]

13 hours ago, Panzer_Guido said:

I love how the sub apologists give increasingly outlandish suggestions ala "why did you leave your cap, you are not supposed to push" and treat that as "proof" that sub is not unbalanced. 

 

First you wish they would read up what a "proof" is and that best case scenarios that leave out the entire enemy team as a factor and only work on some ships do not qualify. 

 

Probably a side effect of suddenly having such high WR / points per game in sub, which obviously cant be bias and has to be skill.

 

Where is anyone Apologizing about Subs ?

You so Biased in Your Head that Your Hallucinating something weird ????

 

Also who exactly is making outlandish suggestions ???

Why would a BB leave the Cap when the Enemy in front is Superior ? Do You Generally think Yoloing into a Shimakaze with a BB is a Great Idea ????

Or Are you just Pretending to not know this because You dislike Subs and got no better Argument ???

 

Have you taken a Look at what Your Anti Sub Hero over there is doing all the Time ?

At this Point he is so Desperate that the only way he can even try to hold his Ground in this Argument without being laughed out of the Topic is to constantly try and match the Subs against Low Tier Pre War Bathtubes that are Ridiculously Slow even on that Tier.

 

 

 

Also I dont think People in a Glasshouse should throw stones.

If I was some Statpadder who got over 1000 Games in Guilio Caesare (A Tier 5 BB so OP it was Removed from Circulation almost entirely and permanently now only appearing in super rare auctions at 10 times the Original Price or by Buying Hundreds of Santa Crates) I would be sinking into Ground from Shame lol. I would certainly not try to Statshame others or Accuse them of using an OP Ship to Pad their Stats lol