General Submarines related discussions

[Yosha_AtaIante]

4 hours ago, SmegTheNoob said:

So, NO, Subs DO NOT NEED A BUFF.

He is saying the depth charges need a buff. You are so focused on your anti submarine rally that you completely misread what others are saying. No one in here said that subs need buffs.

[Sunleader]

7 hours ago, SmegTheNoob said:

Oh, did you find something about the game that Sunleader didn't know about?

 

What you have shown there is that the lower tier Subs actually have a closer homing cut off than higher tier Subs.

So, doesn't that make it harder to shake off homing torpedoes in a tier 6 BB, as opposed to a tier 8 or tier 10 BB?

Not by that much, but it does make it harder to avoid the torps in the lower tiers.

 

Nope.

Sorry to take that Straw, You so Desperately Gasp for, away.

But he is 40% less Maneuverable and more than 50% Larger.

But he only gets 13% more Time to React.

 

So its still way more Difficult for him on T10 than for You.

 

 

And Before You ask.

Yes 13%

The Distance is 71% of T10 but the Speed of the Torps are Slower as well.

 

 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Yes 13%

The Distance is 71% of T10 but the Speed of the Torps are Slower as well.

Did you calculate the torpspeed into the reaction time? It should be the same reaction time across all tiers. The distance on lower tiers is smaller precisely because the torps in lower tiers are way slower compared to t10. If the max homing distance was the same in lowtier as it was in t10 then lowtier would have an even easier time evading the torps.

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

Did you calculate the torpspeed into the reaction time? It should be the same reaction time across all tiers. The distance on lower tiers is smaller precisely because the torps in lower tiers are way slower compared to t10. If the max homing distance was the same in lowtier as it was in t10 then lowtier would have an even easier time evading the torps.

 

Yes I did.

However there still remains

a 13% Difference when going Tier 10 to Tier 6

and a 6% Difference when going Tier 10 to Tier 8.

These Numbers Vary a Bit Depending on what Nation You Play as well.

 

In Total however the Time to Impact after losing the Homing Effect is Bigger in Tier 10.

Usually by around 0.5 to 1 Second.

 

This is Likely Intended as well. Because the Tier 10 Battleships are mostly Super Heavy Battleships which are Literally Giant Floating Bricks that have the Worst Maneuverability in the Game.

Meaning that they already have alot more Trouble Evading Torps anyways.

If they made the Distance just Depend on the Speed it would make it next to Impossible for Tier 10 Battleships like GK or Yamato to Evade the Homing Torps because they are Simply too Big and take too long to Turn.

In Fact even right now the Tier 10 BBs are Heavily Disadvantaged. Because its just a 2.1km to 1.5km Difference. If they wanted to make it Fair. They would actually need to Increase the Distance at which Homing Torps Stop Homing to over 3km at Tier 10. Because thats where the Tier 10 BBs Horrible Maneuverability would Start being Compensated.

However. That would likely not really do much either. Because it would Exceed the Spotting Distance for the Torpedoes. Meaning that even tough the Torpedoes Stopped Homing. You dont See when they Stop Homing. Which means that due to the fact that Turning Early would also Correct the Torpedoes Trajectory if they are still Homing. Making the Distance bigger than 2.1km would do nothing.

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

Did you calculate the torpspeed into the reaction time? It should be the same reaction time across all tiers. The distance on lower tiers is smaller precisely because the torps in lower tiers are way slower compared to t10. If the max homing distance was the same in lowtier as it was in t10 then lowtier would have an even easier time evading the torps.

For reference, formula for torpedo reaction time, yoinked from wiki:

D_range / (V_torp * 2.6) * 1000 = T_reaction

 

So for Ger subs guided torps, reaction time are 10s, 10.5s and 10.3s as you go with tiers up. Unguided have 12.4s and 11.8s respectively.

In comparison, Gearing torps have 8.2s, Shima/8km have 9.1s, Halland have 8s reaction time

 

Interestingly, there's mismatch between that formula above and what wowsft/shiptool show for reaction time. Both websites give out 8.8s reaction time for 8km F3 torps (Shima/Yugo), while no matter which calculator I use, 1.8/(76*2.6)*1000=9.109

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

In Fact even right now the Tier 10 BBs are Heavily Disadvantaged.

And even in their disadvantaged state it's laughably easy to dodge those torps. How ironic.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Yes I did.

However there still remains

a 13% Difference when going Tier 10 to Tier 6

and a 6% Difference when going Tier 10 to Tier 8.

These Numbers Vary a Bit Depending on what Nation You Play as well.

 

In Total however the Time to Impact after losing the Homing Effect is Bigger in Tier 10.

Usually by around 0.5 to 1 Second.

 

This is Likely Intended as well. Because the Tier 10 Battleships are mostly Super Heavy Battleships which are Literally Giant Floating Bricks that have the Worst Maneuverability in the Game.

Meaning that they already have alot more Trouble Evading Torps anyways.

If they made the Distance just Depend on the Speed it would make it next to Impossible for Tier 10 Battleships like GK or Yamato to Evade the Homing Torps because they are Simply too Big and take too long to Turn.

In Fact even right now the Tier 10 BBs are Heavily Disadvantaged. Because its just a 2.1km to 1.5km Difference. If they wanted to make it Fair. They would actually need to Increase the Distance at which Homing Torps Stop Homing to over 3km at Tier 10. Because thats where the Tier 10 BBs Horrible Maneuverability would Start being Compensated.

However. That would likely not really do much either. Because it would Exceed the Spotting Distance for the Torpedoes. Meaning that even tough the Torpedoes Stopped Homing. You dont See when they Stop Homing. Which means that due to the fact that Turning Early would also Correct the Torpedoes Trajectory if they are still Homing. Making the Distance bigger than 2.1km would do nothing.

as do you know that you can start dodging them even when you do not see them becasue you know 2 thing without spoting torpedos:

- part of the ship they will try to hit

- direction they are coming from

[SmegTheNoob]

9 hours ago, Zuihou_Kai_Ni said:

He is saying the depth charges need a buff. You are so focused on your anti submarine rally that you completely misread what others are saying. No one in here said that subs need buffs.

Sorry, but you are wrong there mate.

If you look a few pages back in this thread. You will see that Cuddly_Spider loves Submarines so much, that they are his top 3 or 4 most played ships.

But if you also look back through this thread, you will see that he is constantly complaining that Submarines get easily killed by depth charges.

In actual fact, he wants Submarines to have a lot more health, and he wants depth charges nerfed.

 

Me personally feel the opposite. I rarely do damage to Submarines with depth charges. Esp the air dropped variety. Plus its even more rare, that I actually sink a Submarine  with depth charges.

Hence, that is why I said that, NO, Submarines do not need buffing.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

WG will likely buff them anyway though due to how bad they perform currently. You can thank a few bad players for that.

[Sunleader]

8 hours ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

as do you know that you can start dodging them even when you do not see them becasue you know 2 thing without spoting torpedos:

- part of the ship they will try to hit

- direction they are coming from

 

This is actually Counterproductive when Facing Homing Torps and its one of the most made Mistakes when Dealing with them.

 

 

Again.

When Homing Torps Home. They Home in on a Virtual Point in Front of Your Ship.

They Constantly keep Correcting their Course so that, if you kept going the way you were going, they would Hit You after losing the Homing Effect.

Basicly They Always Aim for the Point where You Ship will be in roughly 8-10 Seconds after they Lose Homing.

 

However. This also means. That Any Maneuvers You make before this. Are Useless. Because the Torpedo will Correct for them.

And this actually makes Maneuvering before that Worse. Because when You Maneuver You Bleed Speed which makes it harder to then Maneuver Further. 

And this is a Problem. Because this means that the Virtual Point keeps being Correct Closer to Your Real Position.

 

So By doing this You Effectively lose Maneuverability to actually Evade the Torpedo. While at the same Time bringing the Point the Torpedo is Aiming for, once it Loses Homing, closer to your Ship.

 

Hence why You should ONLY Start Evasion for Homing Torps. Either if they are Still far away and You can basicly Show them your Rear and Pick up Speed again before they Land. (Because if You have enough time to do that You can make Evasion much much Easier.

Or after they Lost the Homing Effect. Because only the Maneuvers Carried out after that will not be Corrected for by the Torpedo and this will make the Virtual Point the Torpedo Aimed for and Your Real Position Misalign thus the Torpedo Missing.

 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

This is actually Counterproductive when Facing Homing Torps and its one of the most made Mistakes when Dealing with them.

 

 

Again.

When Homing Torps Home. They Home in on a Virtual Point in Front of Your Ship.

They Constantly keep Correcting their Course so that, if you kept going the way you were going, they would Hit You after losing the Homing Effect.

Basicly They Always Aim for the Point where You Ship will be in roughly 8-10 Seconds after they Lose Homing.

 

However. This also means. That Any Maneuvers You make before this. Are Useless. Because the Torpedo will Correct for them.

And this actually makes Maneuvering before that Worse. Because when You Maneuver You Bleed Speed which makes it harder to then Maneuver Further. 

And this is a Problem. Because this means that the Virtual Point keeps being Correct Closer to Your Real Position.

 

So By doing this You Effectively lose Maneuverability to actually Evade the Torpedo. While at the same Time bringing the Point the Torpedo is Aiming for, once it Loses Homing, closer to your Ship.

 

Hence why You should ONLY Start Evasion for Homing Torps. Either if they are Still far away and You can basicly Show them your Rear and Pick up Speed again before they Land. (Because if You have enough time to do that You can make Evasion much much Easier.

Or after they Lost the Homing Effect. Because only the Maneuvers Carried out after that will not be Corrected for by the Torpedo and this will make the Virtual Point the Torpedo Aimed for and Your Real Position Misalign thus the Torpedo Missing.

 

The best way, to me,  to dodging them is to kite them. So they will follow you and always try to hit your steran. Before hit you wiggle your stearn and they will miss cause they are not as manevaruble. 

 

For that it very nice to know from what side they are coming and in from what angle. 

 

Maneuvering before seeing torps is needed to put you in kiting position. 

 

Same can be done if you do not kite but put your bow to torpedos and go straight to them and do hard Maneuver before impact. It is riskier because you are going into torps and shortens response time due to faster speed of impact 

[Sunleader]

13 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

The best way, to me,  to dodging them is to kite them. So they will follow you and always try to hit your steran. Before hit you wiggle your stearn and they will miss cause they are not as manevaruble. 

 

For that it very nice to know from what side they are coming and in from what angle. 

 

Maneuvering before seeing torps is needed to put you in kiting position. 

 

Same can be done if you do not kite but put your bow to torpedos and go straight to them and do hard Maneuver before impact. It is riskier because you are going into torps and shortens response time due to faster speed of impact 

 

Problem is. This only Works if the Enemy Sub is a Potato that Pings You while the Torps are still 10km away.

 

As I said. IF You have the Time to Turn out that is alot easier to Evade the Torps.

So if You for example Spotted the Sub coming your Direction or got Pinged early in the Game when the Enemy Sub cant yet have Fired the Torps in advance this is Fine.

 

But 90% You cannot know if the Torps are 5km away and thus You Turning out just makes You Super easy to Hit. Or if they are 10km away and thus You turning out makes Evasion very Easy.

So Turning out by Default is a Gamble that Generally works against Potatoes that Ping from 10km away the moment they Fire Torps. But will actually make You easy to Hit for a Decent Sub Player that Launches his Torps in Advance and only Ping when the Torps are 5km out to Correct their Course from their Original Aim.

 

 

Of Course.

Using an Anti Potato Strategy will still work in the Majority of Games because the Vast Majority of Players are Potato.

So if nothing else Your Approach will Allow You to Evade Homing Torps most of the Time.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Of Course.

Using an Anti Potato Strategy will still work in the Majority of Games because the Vast Majority of Players are Potato.

So if nothing else Your Approach will Allow You to Evade Homing Torps most of the Time.

Exactly. And if I was outplayed by good player - kudos to them 👏 

[Sunleader]

56 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Exactly. And if I was outplayed by good player - kudos to them 👏 

 

Fair enough

[Panzer_Guido]

funfact. If you spot a sub in the Giulio Cesare and it is 5 km from you, your 1 sink charge is still 1 km out of range. Brilliant design. An "airstrike" with 4 km range...I could as well throw pizza overboard. same effect.

 

 

[Sunleader]

14 minutes ago, Panzer_Guido said:

funfact. If you spot a sub in the Giulio Cesare and it is 5 km from you, your 1 sink charge is still 1 km out of range. Brilliant design. An "airstrike" with 4 km range...I could as well throw pizza overboard. same effect.

 

Erm ? And ???

You are a Battleship. If there is any Design Flaw here. It is that you have an Airstrike at all.

You are not Supposed to be Hunting Submarines. Much less are You Supposed to be Good at it.

 

Frankly. If BBs have Depth Charge Airstrikes. All of them should be 4km Range.

 

Its Idiotic that BBs Right now are the Best Submarine Hunters.

 

 

They Should Remove the Depth Charge Airstrikes entirely and instead Fix Shotgunning by making all Sub Torps have a Minimum Activation Distance of 3km for Unguided and 5km for Guided Torps.

Thus making it Impossible for Subs to Shotgun. And Generally making it Undesirable to get Close unless its a BB and You want to Dump Unguided Torps into its Broadside.

[_Kokushibo_]

1 hour ago, Panzer_Guido said:

funfact. If you spot a sub in the Giulio Cesare and it is 5 km from you, your 1 sink charge is still 1 km out of range. Brilliant design. An "airstrike" with 4 km range...I could as well throw pizza overboard. same effect.

 

 

Funfact: If you spot a sub in Ohio, you can fight a Balao with an "airstrike" with 6 km range.That's balance department brilliance at its peak. Apparently a ship with Montana hull will do just fine against a tier X sub. But poor Slava can do it with a range of 11 km. No bias here.

[BLUB__BLUB]

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Erm ? And ???

You are a Battleship. If there is any Design Flaw here. It is that you have an Airstrike at all.

You are not Supposed to be Hunting Submarines. Much less are You Supposed to be Good at it.

Ahem... "supposed to" as in, historical fact? 

 

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Frankly. If BBs have Depth Charge Airstrikes. All of them should be 4km Range.

Why? Historical? This is WeeGee. We cannot know what goes on in their brain. If something goes on there at all.  

 

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Its Idiotic that BBs Right now are the Best Submarine Hunters.

That's true. 

 

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

They Should Remove the Depth Charge Airstrikes entirely and instead Fix Shotgunning by making all Sub Torps have a Minimum Activation Distance of 3km for Unguided and 5km for Guided Torps.

Thus making it Impossible for Subs to Shotgun.

This is actually a GREAT idea. 

 

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

And Generally making it Undesirable to get Close unless its a BB and You want to Dump Unguided Torps into its Broadside.

That is how they usually get me. Because they are quicker, too. 

[Sunleader]

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Ahem... "supposed to" as in, historical fact? 

 

Why? Historical? This is WeeGee. We cannot know what goes on in their brain. If something goes on there at all.  

 

That's true. 

 

This is actually a GREAT idea. 

 

That is how they usually get me. Because they are quicker, too. 

 

1+2.

Nope. I dont care for Historical Accuracy.

 

But Gameplaywise it just makes no Sense for BBs to be the Best Submarine Hunters or BBs having Depth Charge Airstrikes.

It Completely Destroys the whole meaning behind Submarines in the First Place.

 

The whole Goal of Submarine Gameplay is to be an Ambusher.

The Subs Job should be to get Past the Smaller Ships Undetected and then Strike at Heavier Ships.

Especially those Heavier Ships that refuse to Move and just Sit somewhere nose in.

 

Likewise they should Force DDs to also be Involved in Defending their Team rather than only going to the Center Deathmatch and then either being Dead or Harassing the Enemy the Remaining Match.

 

The Submarine should bring 2 Things into the Gameplay of WoWs.

A. Reduce Island Camping and Force the Battlefield to Move.

B. Prevent DDs from just having their own little Deathmatch in the Cappoints at the Start of the Battle and then leave the Team whose DDs lost at an Ridiculously Disadvantage.

 

 

Its doing neither of these right now.

Right now due to Island Camping BBs having Airstrikes they are not Incentiviced to move at all. In Fact Camping in the Rear is Preferable because that way there is more People to Spam Depth Charge Airstrikes if the Sub comes up.

And DDs are even more Incentiviced for the Early Death Match because they are Crab against Submarines and therefore are better off Acting Rashly and Early before the Subs are Positioned.

 

3.

xx

 

4.

xx

 

5.

Well. Thats the one thing they are Supposed to do after all.

Sneak up on and Ambush a BB or Heavy Cruiser for Devastating Damage and then Run Away.

 

Its the one thing WG got Right.

Just that its not really feeling Right when DDs and Light Cruisers dont actually work as Screens against Subs due to Subs being able to Shotgun them and thus them Avoiding Subs instead.

 

[SmegTheNoob]

The reason a BB is perceived to be the best submarine hunter is because of ship dropped depth charges on destroyers and cruisers.

 

When you think about it. A DD or Cruiser has to chase down a sub in order to drop depth charges on its head.

Now we know that doing this can put your ship right in the firing line of other enemy ships.

 

But a BB can just drop an air strike in the general area of the sub. If the player actually spotted where the ping comes from and spots the surface curved marker. This is not always the case, if you are looking elsewhere at the time.

 

I think that is why a BB or Cruiser with Air Strikes may be the best submarine hunters.

 

[SurfaceFish]

33 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

A DD or Cruiser has to chase down a sub in order to drop depth charges on its head.

Most DD don't even have hydro, so if the sub dives. How do you know where and when to drop depth charges?

 

WG balance WTF!

[SmegTheNoob]

4 minutes ago, SurfaceFish said:

Most DD don't even have hydro, so if the sub dives. How do you know where and when to drop depth charges?

 

WG balance WTF!

You guess.

Me personaly. I think some higher tier DD's should be equipped with the forward firing hedghog system.

Then they could throw some charges ahead of the ship while driving towards the Subs position.

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

1+2.

Nope. I dont care for Historical Accuracy.

OK let's agree to disagree on that, then. 

I think some historical accuracy should be, else the game will not feel 'instinctive' or 'natural' at all.

As in, you need to shoot ships, make holes, and then of course you burn them down and sink them. 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

But Gameplaywise it just makes no Sense for BBs to be the Best Submarine Hunters or BBs having Depth Charge Airstrikes.

It Completely Destroys the whole meaning behind Submarines in the First Place.

 

The whole Goal of Submarine Gameplay is to be an Ambusher.

The Subs Job should be to get Past the Smaller Ships Undetected and then Strike at Heavier Ships.

Especially those Heavier Ships that refuse to Move and just Sit somewhere nose in.

I agree that this should be the idea. It would indeed be what I would require of subs. 

But this is WeeGee. They have, of course, FFd it up. But... this would be the natural thing to do... 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Likewise they should Force DDs to also be Involved in Defending their Team rather than only going to the Center Deathmatch and then either being Dead or Harassing the Enemy the Remaining Match.

That is the problem, they have not equipped Dds with the tools (some are, as they have hydro, but well). 
DDs are probablty THE LEAST equipped to deal with subs. I do agree that is how I'd want it, too. 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

The Submarine should bring 2 Things into the Gameplay of WoWs.

A. Reduce Island Camping and Force the Battlefield to Move.

B. Prevent DDs from just having their own little Deathmatch in the Cappoints at the Start of the Battle and then leave the Team whose DDs lost at an Ridiculously Disadvantage.

I agree. Subs should be something for DDs to do, again, this is something 'natural'. 

But at the moment DDs are THE WORST against subs.

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Its doing neither of these right now.

Right now due to Island Camping BBs having Airstrikes they are not Incentiviced to move at all. In Fact Camping in the Rear is Preferable because that way there is more People to Spam Depth Charge Airstrikes if the Sub comes up.

And DDs are even more Incentiviced for the Early Death Match because they are Crab against Submarines and therefore are better off Acting Rashly and Early before the Subs are Positioned.

I think we agree there, too. 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

5.

Well. Thats the one thing they are Supposed to do after all.

Sneak up on and Ambush a BB or Heavy Cruiser for Devastating Damage and then Run Away.

IMO the non-guided torps should have much much more flooding chance, as opposed to direct damage. 

I'm against guided torps, maybe T10 should have them but not the lower tiers. 

 

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Its the one thing WG got Right.

Just that its not really feeling Right when DDs and Light Cruisers dont actually work as Screens against Subs due to Subs being able to Shotgun them and thus them Avoiding Subs instead.

I think subs should also be something that hunts CVs. Large, fat ships at the rear... camping... But well... 

IMO the CV should have choice to change one of the squads for ASW squads, dropping depth charges.

 

BTW all those are 'natural' things - AKA sort of 'historic'. 

[chazwozza]

Pretty much made the game unplayable and pointless

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Look, more homing torps for you guys. Better learn how to deal with them or just take the easy route out. All this moaning is leading you nowhere.