General Submarines related discussions

[Dutchy_2019]

20 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

all the ships that tx usa sub can encounter and can outspot her

 

Which still would put the US Submarines solidly in the middle of the pack as far as spotting is concerned

 

And nice of you to ignore the Soviet and German subs, who would rank in the absolute top.

 

Nota that 8 of those 27 DDs are no longer available in the game; with some of them completely unavailable, and some only through SC / Santa Crates or Black Friday.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

4 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Well, since I do not have all the T10 DDs, and I cannot be arsed to spend too much time looking the modified detectability values up (WoWs Wiki only gives the base value), yeah, that is why I gave it that conditional.

 

BTW, it the question was of equal tier, NOT 'which DDs they can face in battle' 

 

It still means that subs have a very good concealment compared to the DDs they can face.

great tool

https://shiptool.st/filter?g=&ty=&n=&tn=1&tx=11&c=top

[WingedHussar_Adler]

Just now, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

 

 

And nice of you to ignore the Soviet and German subs, who would rank in the absolute top.

 

 

top of what?

[Dutchy_2019]

Just now, WingedHussar_Adler said:

top of what?

 

Top of concealment:

 

Soviet sub: 5.5 km

U-190 (T8): 5.6 km

U-2501: 5.5km

 

The only DD that outspots all of them is Kagero, or the 4 Kagero hull ships that are no longer regularly available.

 

[SmegTheNoob]

If a Sub can out spot a DD, so what, its pretty irrelevant.

The fact that a DD has to go out of his way to charge at a Sub in order to drop depth charges on to it makes it very vulnerable.

We all know that doing this usually ends up with the DD putting itself right in the firing line of other enemy surface ships.

 

Sometimes its far better for the DD to just run away from the Sub.

Now that is the really sad pathetic reality of the implementation of Subs.

 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

5 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Top of concealment:

 

Soviet sub: 5.5 km

U-190 (T8): 5.6 km

U-2501: 5.5km

 

The only DD that outspots all of them is Kagero, or the 4 Kagero hull ships that are no longer regularly available.

 

and none of those ship is not regulary available...but probably will be in near futura

[Dutchy_2019]

24 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

and none of those ship is not regulary available...but probably will be in near futura

 

U-190 and U-2501 are, as they are Tech Tree ships; and at least U-190s I have seen regularly in T8

[BLUB__BLUB]

40 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

i dont want subs to have better surface detection.....i think that is place where they could get legit nerf...no need for them to fave great stealth when gameplay should revolve arpound sumbmerged and periscop depth

That's exactly it. I think they should be more crappy on the surface, and better when dived/periscope.

First thing I'd change is the divetime, I would make it so that they gain some on the surface upto a max time. 
But on the surface they'd be more detectable, and have less accurate torps. Most accuracy when at periscope depth. 

I'd also kill the 'guided torpedoes'  up to T10. No guided torps for t6/8, ping just for spotting ships from periscope/dived position. 

 

[SmegTheNoob]

44 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

That's exactly it. I think they should be more crappy on the surface, and better when dived/periscope.

 

I'd also kill the 'guided torpedoes'  up to T10. No guided torps for t6/8, ping just for spotting ships from periscope/dived position. 

 

Yes that is the problem mate. The stupid homing torpedoes, sonar ping locks and countering with damage control.

That has been the biggest complaint about subs, right from the start.

 

Get rid of homing torpedoes and the sonar ping mechanic.

Then I think Subs would be more accepted by the surface ship crowd.

Subs should have the same torp mechanic as every other ship.

[Cuddly_Spider]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Eh well, I have been shotblasted by subs, if you approach from the front (or rear, with some) you eat torps. 

 

Shotgunning torps from subs suddenly appearing in front of you? For that to happen you haven't be pinged, or you'd be aware of the sub's approximate bearing.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yes you can shoot them, but this does not kill them immediately at all, since they have same sort op HP as a DD.

The HP pool is less than a DD, but they also have no armour and a trifling breeze will knock out multiple sub modules and cause flooding. Quite honestly, have a go at one of these things sometime - you'll be shocked by the extreme fragility of them.

 

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

If you attack another DD with a DD, then that DD does NOT have the option to dive away at all. 

 

No, but DDs can duke it out. Subs have no guns at all. Their one offensive move is the torpedo, which can only be fired from the front or stern and which is very very vulnerable to being knocked out by any sort of damage. It also has a very long reload time compared to a DDs cannon, which means that if you miss (which is a distinct possibility unless the DD obligingly presents his entire flank to you), you are basically defenseless for at least half a minute with enemies bearing down on you.

 

I implore anyone who really thinks these are overpowered to at least try them out.

[SmegTheNoob]

4 minutes ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

 

Shotgunning torps from subs suddenly appearing in front of you? For that to happen you haven't be pinged, or you'd be aware of the sub's approximate bearing.

The HP pool is less than a DD, but they also have no armour and a trifling breeze will knock out multiple sub modules and cause flooding. Quite honestly, have a go at one of these things sometime - you'll be shocked by the extreme fragility of them.

 

 

No, but DDs can duke it out. Subs have no guns at all. Their one offensive move is the torpedo, which can only be fired from the front or stern and which is very very vulnerable to being knocked out by any sort of damage. It also has a very long reload time compared to a DDs cannon, which means that if you miss (which is a distinct possibility unless the DD obligingly presents his entire flank to you), you are basically defenseless for at least half a minute with enemies bearing down on you.

 

I implore anyone who really thinks these are overpowered to at least try them out.

Some Subs do have guns as secondary armourment.

I also expect more Subs to be given player controlled deck guns as time goes on.

Knowing Wargaming, they will give a bunch of Premium Subs a deck gun gimmick to get the fools to buy them.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

1 hour ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

U-190 and U-2501 are, as they are Tech Tree ships; and at least U-190s I have seen regularly in T8

Oh. Km ones. Yes. I tho8ght you are talking about premium RU and Chines 

[Cuddly_Spider]

9 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

Some Subs do have guns as secondary armourment.

I also expect more Subs to be given player controlled deck guns as time goes on.

Knowing Wargaming, they will give a bunch of Premium Subs a deck gun gimmick to get the fools to buy them.

 

The Salmon has a single 76mm cannon with a 4km range and a 22mm AP ability.

 

If you're fighting a sub on the surface, and that's what you're up against, and you somehow manage to lose, don't blame the game.

[SmegTheNoob]

5 minutes ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

 

The Salmon has a single 76mm cannon with a 4km range and a 22mm AP ability.

 

If you're fighting a sub on the surface, and that's what you're up against, and you somehow manage to lose, don't blame the game.

Oh, but I thought you said Subs have NO guns?

It turns out that 3 of the current Subs in the game have guns.

Plus 3 of the upcoming British Subs have guns.

 

Like I said, I expect more Subs to be released with controllable guns in the future.

[Cuddly_Spider]

9 minutes ago, SmegTheNoob said:

Oh, but I thought you said Subs have NO guns?

It turns out that 3 of the current Subs in the game have guns.

Plus 3 of the upcoming British Subs have guns.

 

Like I said, I expect more Subs to be released with controllable guns in the future.

 

For all intents and purposes, that is "no gun" - the player has no control, it operates only at a comically short range, and if it is being used then it generally means that you're about to get sunk.

 

If you're really going to argue that sub CQC gun-running is in any way part of the power of the platform then I think you'll just make the developers realise how feeble some of the anti-sub rhetoric really is.

[SmegTheNoob]

1 minute ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

 

For all intents and purposes, that is "no gun" - the player has no control, it operates only at a comically short range, and if it is being used then it generally means that you're about to get sunk.

 

If you're really going to argue that sub CQC gun-running is in any way part of the power of the platform then I think you'll just make the developers realise how feeble some of the anti-sub rhetoric really is.

4 or 5 km isn't too bad range for a deck gun.

Some BB's only get 5km or less secondary armourment, and not much longer range on their ASW planes.

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

Shotgunning torps from subs suddenly appearing in front of you? For that to happen you haven't be pinged, or you'd be aware of the sub's approximate bearing.

Well usually that is when I pop around the corner and then he is nose in... some subs are-in.
And yes that is when they torp without ping. 

 

3 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

The HP pool is less than a DD, but they also have no armour....

Wait wait wait... before we get that again: their HP is around the same of a DD, some DDs have less.
And Dds also have no armour at all (OK except some that aren't really DDs).  

 

3 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

...and a trifling breeze will knock out multiple sub modules and cause flooding. Quite honestly, have a go at one of these things sometime - you'll be shocked by the extreme fragility of them.

Same as DDs. Have you tried those? Subs are quite resilient to AP, too. 
I tried to kill one with a Minotaur... dammit dammit dammit. Any cruiser would have been long dead, but not that sub. 

 

3 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

No, but DDs can duke it out. Subs have no guns at all. Their one offensive move is the torpedo, which can only be fired from the front or stern and which is very very vulnerable to being knocked out by any sort of damage. It also has a very long reload time compared to a DDs cannon, which means that if you miss (which is a distinct possibility unless the DD obligingly presents his entire flank to you), you are basically defenseless for at least half a minute with enemies bearing down on you.

True. But when that happens, the sub SHOULD be dead, as he made some capital mistakes. 

However the sub can manage to be invulnerable to DD guns and torps. 
But, well, those ASW bombs are also quite hefty (800m radius... as said that is also a BS mechanic). 

 

3 hours ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

I implore anyone who really thinks these are overpowered to at least try them out.

They are not OP. They are just broken. Which mean, as such they aren't that powerful but if somebody knows how, they are a terror.

And this is bad. Because it creates a skill gap, if you have a good sub player and the reds have a bad one, well... same as CVs. 

On top of that some mechanics are absolute bullcrap. That is why subs are hated.

Take away the ping-guided-torps, as counter give their torps 90% flooding chance. Would be a lot better.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

4 hours ago, SmegTheNoob said:

Get rid of homing torpedoes and the sonar ping mechanic.

Then I think Subs would be more accepted by the surface ship crowd.

Subs should have the same torp mechanic as every other ship.

 Get rid of the homing indeed - that MAYBE belongs at T10. Ping should just reveal ships to subs when they are underwater. 

It should be a (narrow or less narrow) cone that they send out and that detects (surface)ships. 

But I do think that subs should get ~90% chance of flooding on the torps (also, as they do not create fires). 

High risk, high reward. 

[Captain_Lootbox]

After WG gave us the broken CVs it was only natural for them to introduce the more broken subs.  We saw it in World of Tanks with arty and wheeled vehicles.   WG is just trying to suss out how to make us pay for gold ammo in warships.   

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

On submarines and horsepoodamagesaturation: 12x T61 128 mm HE hits on a broadside fully surfaced sub 3k damage excuse me?

 

[HMS_Kilinowski]

27 minutes ago, Europizza said:

On submarines and horsepoodamagesaturation: 12x 128 mm HE hits on a broadside fully surfaced sub 3k damage excuse me?

 

 

You took the wrong ship. I took a Sims:

 

Turns out you can't kill an I-56 sub within a minimum of 10 salvos, dealing ~70k raw dpm. The trick is you just need to hit a 10k torpedo and then a CV steals that kill by hitting another two torpedoes.

 

It's a bit strange, when you punish a surfaced sub for a minute straight, to the point, where even the CV comes in for a piece of the action. All the time you think that all the sub needs to do is dive, hydro you, surface close and dump one salvo of torps into you, being exposed for less than 10s.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

4 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

You took the wrong ship. I took a Sims:

 

Turns out you can't kill an I-56 sub within a minimum of 10 salvos, dealing ~70k raw dpm. The trick is you just need to hit a 10k torpedo and then a CV steals that kill by hitting another two torpedoes.

 

It's a bit strange, when you punish a surfaced sub for a minute straight, to the point, where even the CV comes in for a piece of the action. All the time you think that all the sub needs to do is dive, hydro you, surface close and dump one salvo of torps into you, being exposed for less than 10s.

It's like playing Team Fortress 2 not killing a spy 'because you hit him in the head too many times'.

 

This developer.

[HMS_Kilinowski]

1 minute ago, Europizza said:

It's like playing Team Fortress 2 not killing a spy 'because you hit him in the head too many times'.

 

This developer.

 

Well, the I-56 is imo not representative of all subs in the game. Also it's one tier higher. But we are talking about an intellectually very limited individual, being on the surface with the sub for a prolonged time, tho having the battery to disappear at will.

Now this ship, as we can see in clips, only needs to surface for a few seconds to dump a salvo of torps into my DD that will likely sink it, even from full health. It only needs one friendly ship in the area, able to shoot me while I am spotted in return, and suddenly that interaction turns into a poor trade for me. At the same time, I am hammering away at this I-56 for over a minute, ofc missing shells, cause it's such a small silhouette. I even hit one of these 49 knots, 10k alpha torps, waiting for those 78knots, 14k torps in return. And none of this kills the sub.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

31 minutes ago, HMS_Kilinowski said:

 

Well, the I-56 is imo not representative of all subs in the game. Also it's one tier higher. But we are talking about an intellectually very limited individual, being on the surface with the sub for a prolonged time, tho having the battery to disappear at will.

Now this ship, as we can see in clips, only needs to surface for a few seconds to dump a salvo of torps into my DD that will likely sink it, even from full health. It only needs one friendly ship in the area, able to shoot me while I am spotted in return, and suddenly that interaction turns into a poor trade for me. At the same time, I am hammering away at this I-56 for over a minute, ofc missing shells, cause it's such a small silhouette. I even hit one of these 49 knots, 10k alpha torps, waiting for those 78knots, 14k torps in return. And none of this kills the sub.

My enemy sub player basically gave up and was AFK broadside to my T61 at 3 KM. Guess I suck for not looking for the unsaturated parts, except i did, or Lesta/WG sub design sucks, which it does. 

[FellRaven]

I will start with Submarines are not balanced and should never have been introduced, that said.

 

Having leveled up both the U-69 and the Cachalot I can not find anything that would recommend the Cachalot over the U-69 it doesn't seem to be better in any meaningful way.

 

Thoughts anyone else who has played both.