General Submarines related discussions

[NeonViolet]

41 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

There might be 5% of the playerbase, who will leave because of the submarines, they don't want it. Then there are maybe 55%, the majority, who don't want submarines, but stay in game and keep playing. Now there are 20% who want submarines and also 20%, who want submarines and will buy premium submarines.

So, why would WG care about the 5% leaving vs the 20% buying people? Why would WG care about 55% who still stay and even buy stuff.

I wager it will be a lot more than 5% and most likely the 55% that actually stay will mostly be people that have been playing the game for years and they probably have everything they wanted which means less spending unless they really want something new.

I on the other hand do not have everything I want, I actually had a goal to get all of the premium ships that are available as part of my collection I think I have 5 of them the Groningen, P. Bagration, Ragnarok, Massachusetts, and the Wujing but that I got out of a super container. these are the only premiums I have been able to buy so far and they will be the last I have ever bought.

 

That in itself means that WG will actually lose money but I am not a businessperson or that understanding of statistics all I know is people hate the subs and, to be frank, I would have rather never had them in the game, to begin with, events like the Halloween thing where they were first introduced was nice but that's just it that's the only mode where they were enjoyable they don't belong in Random battles I would have been fine if you could only use them in operations and in Co-op vs AI.

 

Do you say the devs want appreciation for what they created? all I have seen is pure hatred and toxicity towards sub-players and anyone that sympathized with them, I think the people that actually enjoy subs are a very small number there may be more but I don't know but the matches where I have subs and CV in make it pretty clear to me that they are not appreciated, in fact, it creates a toxic environment where people have been cursed at and been ridiculed and called trash and other slurs how is that a healthy thing for a game.

 

Take this for example when I get matches, where there is not a single sub or CV people, have fun and they enjoy it.

 

I will stand by what I said Subs are not good for this game nothing good will ever come from them being permanently implemented in this game but so be it.

I will probably just play until October anyway and then probably take a long break and come back in a year or 2 and see if the game actually survived or if it became a ghost town like World of warplanes did.

 

[Charles__Vane__]

Il y a 3 heures, Pikkozoikum a dit :

Funfact, people said, they should be in a convoy mode, but actually I think they are bad in convoy mode and better in a cap-mode. They lack in speed and range, so having something stationary is better and just sweep around 2 caps

 

Also they not just keep buffing, there is also a nerfing. WG has statistics, where they differe  between good and bad player impacts

The problem with balancing subs is how different they are according to the player.

Unicums totally carry games in subs and honestly you can"t do much, it's even worse than when they play CV.

But potatoes subs players are doing nothing most of the time and are the lowest score by far of the team. So, honestly, I think it might be very difficult to balance these. Just like CVs...which never really got balanced imho.

[NeonViolet]

1 hour ago, Charles__Vane__ said:

The problem with balancing subs is how different they are according to the player.

Unicums totally carry games in subs and honestly you can"t do much, it's even worse than when they play CV.

But potatoes subs players are doing nothing most of the time and are the lowest score by far of the team. So, honestly, I think it might be very difficult to balance these. Just like CVs...which never really got balanced imho.

Yeah, that's also something that I found super hilarious WG not being able to balance CVs properly and what do they do I know let's add Super CVs, I bet the same thing will happen with submarines.

Just had a match with a CV and 2 subs one of their subs got through to our flank and just started shotgun topping all of us with us not being able to do anything about it.

 

I think I am just going to complete the dockyard and shelve this game for a couple of years who knows maybe by that time WG will have balanced submarines but I doubt it considering CVs being out for as long as they have been and not even being balanced properly.

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

3 hours ago, Charles__Vane__ said:

The problem with balancing subs is how different they are according to the player.

I had a nice *cough* experience recently, when playing my Leone. I got shoved into a battle with 2 CV and 3 subs. On each team. IIRC all ships in the battle were T6, so at least there wasn't any further *fun* (aka uptiering) involved.

And yes, the quality of players in CVs and subs makes all the difference. Two of the opposing subs got sunk around the 5 minute played mark, because they pushed aggressively unsupported into a cap.

I managed to survive until the end of the battle - a win - and managed to even sink one of the CVs, but real fun looks different to me.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 hours ago, tom_kat said:

The ping that "reveals" the position of a sub, for example, rng at 2km or more with the delay is not a buff?

It's technically a nerf, because before that, you had only the ping seen itself, which was extremly hard to notice the right positon and before that you had no reveal at all. So yes, it is a nerf.

Aside that, there are nerfs like reduced dmg here, reduce speed tehre. It's an up and down. As I said. There are not only buffs. There are also nerfs. That's what always happens in pvp games.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 hours ago, Charles__Vane__ said:

The problem with balancing subs is how different they are according to the player.

Unicums totally carry games in subs and honestly you can"t do much, it's even worse than when they play CV.

But potatoes subs players are doing nothing most of the time and are the lowest score by far of the team. So, honestly, I think it might be very difficult to balance these. Just like CVs...which never really got balanced imho.

Actually sounds like normal gameplay. Though I also saw unicums quite failing in subs :3 I think, that the submarines overall are quite bad for "totally carrying". They are slow like a BB and have range like a DD. That makes them inflexible and bad for carrying - which doesn't mean, you can't have good games.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 hours ago, NeonViolet said:

I wager it will be a lot more than 5% and most likely the 55% that actually stay will mostly be people that have been playing the game for years and they probably have everything they wanted which means less spending unless they really want something new.

As I said, the numbers are totally made up for giving the example. It's illogical to believe, that WG want to put something in, even if nobody likes it. In that case, they wouldn't do it. Companies are not known for wasting money for nothing

 

6 hours ago, NeonViolet said:

I on the other hand do not have everything I want, I actually had a goal to get all of the premium ships that are available as part of my collection I think I have 5 of them the Groningen, P. Bagration, Ragnarok, Massachusetts, and the Wujing but that I got out of a super container. these are the only premiums I have been able to buy so far and they will be the last I have ever bought.

 

That in itself means that WG will actually lose money but I am not a businessperson or that understanding of statistics all I know is people hate the subs and, to be frank, I would have rather never had them in the game, to begin with, events like the Halloween thing where they were first introduced was nice but that's just it that's the only mode where they were enjoyable they don't belong in Random battles I would have been fine if you could only use them in operations and in Co-op vs AI. 

I think, WG is aware of the money loss and win.

 

6 hours ago, NeonViolet said:

Do you say the devs want appreciation for what they created? all I have seen is pure hatred and toxicity towards sub-players and anyone that sympathized with them, I think the people that actually enjoy subs are a very small number there may be more but I don't know but the matches where I have subs and CV in make it pretty clear to me that they are not appreciated, in fact, it creates a toxic environment where people have been cursed at and been ridiculed and called trash and other slurs how is that a healthy thing for a game.

Large pvp games with random players are mostly always toxic. Also if you would ask me 4 years ago, if submarines will be popular, I could tell you, they won't be popular. They are not big battleships or fast destroyers or high dpm cruisers. It's like you want create a racing game with racing cars, luxury cars, trucks and common cars and then expect, that the common cars will be popular. No people will like the fast and cool cars, not the boring ones. That's also why pure submarine games are quite a niche game, while you have a big 3rd person shooters, tank games or airplane games.

Submarines will be always a niche popularity, no matter of the game or how well they are implemented in a game

 

6 hours ago, NeonViolet said:

Take this for example when I get matches, where there is not a single sub or CV people, have fun and they enjoy it.

Like enjoying the trash DD in one team and a unicum DD in another one? ;) It's the game itself in that case.

 

6 hours ago, NeonViolet said:

I will stand by what I said Subs are not good for this game nothing good will ever come from them being permanently implemented in this game but so be it.

I will probably just play until October anyway and then probably take a long break and come back in a year or 2 and see if the game actually survived or if it became a ghost town like World of warplanes did.

Well yes, if you don't like it, it's up to you, though since 5 years people say "this is the last nail of the coffin". And very often about new implementations like RPF, the Torpedoawareness-module, Smolensk and so on

[JohnMac79]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It's illogical to believe, that WG want to put something in, even if nobody likes it. In that case, they wouldn't do it. Companies are not known for wasting money for nothing

 

Didnt WG themselves say their goal is to get 10% of players playing CV? And even to achieve that, they needed to continuously buff them.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

30 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said:

And even to achieve that, they needed

Did they achieve it?

Aren't CV-% about the same as before the reeeework, except when looking at the different tiers, meaning that it's tons of CVs at T4, less at T6, and nearly none at T8/10

So... total and utter success?

And now enter subs into the circus and hope that it works out better than the last desaster?

[RamboCras]

SUBS still suck, please remove them. Being tired of the max 200 pt XP they make and the games with 1 sub, several DDs and a CV.... There were just six ships I could normally shoot at in the game.

 

Subs: You tried it, failed! Improved it, failed! Improved again, you guessed it, failed!! Etc. etc.

 

No fun, no damage to be farmed, to many little ships in the game, no fun for the big ships.

[JohnMac79]

1 hour ago, RamboCras said:

Subs: You tried it, failed! Improved it, failed! Improved again, you guessed it, failed!! Etc. etc.

WarFailing.

[tom_kat]

6 minutes ago, JohnMac79 said:

WarFailing.

Until they start selling premium submarines. And they will sell them. Then they have done a great planned job.

[JohnMac79]

46 minutes ago, tom_kat said:

Until they start selling premium submarines. And they will sell them. Then they have done a great planned job.

Of course they will sell them, look at how OP the first premium looks already. Crap players and sadistic griefers will be looking forward to it. As far as mobile game levels of monetisation, WG are doing well.

 

But for creating a fun and balanced game that cares about its community. Super Warfailing.

[tom_kat]

10 hours ago, JohnMac79 said:

Of course they will sell them, look at how OP the first premium looks already. Crap players and sadistic griefers will be looking forward to it. As far as mobile game levels of monetisation, WG are doing well.

 

But for creating a fun and balanced game that cares about its community. Super Warfailing.

The submarine that will have more HP than any destroyer of his tier, that with a rapid firing gun with SAP? THAT ABERRATION? They will sell more than all premium CVs together.

The objetive of any company is to earn the more money possible with the less investment... The problem here is that WeeGee does not have any real competing company, first, and the high number of players that agree with their business model by buying all the garbage they sell, second. Lots of my clanmates and friends on this game are saying the same... but they keep on buying premium accounts, and the laughst from WeeGee are louder and louder...

[Dutchy_2019]

Sub detectability as currently applied is just stupid, and fun-destroying since, it comes across completely unfair. Example (in game):

 

Enemy submarine decides to sail NEXT to my own sub, and fairly close to DD. Because my own team's submarine did not pay attention to ANYTHING happening, including map-pings and my messages in chat, did absolutely nothing. Result - as the ping-locator is random and NOT accurate at all - my depth charge drops did not damage, and I got to be torped to death. I am not sure the DD used his hydro, or even had hydro.

 

In short: there was a SINGLE player in the position to do ANYTHING on my side of the map. As that sub-player refused to pay attention to chat, what was going on, and - based on his behaviour during the match - I actually doubt he even made a good faith attempt to play the game and the team (and thus actually in violation of EULA), I had NO chance of survival other than a lucky drop. I was in a perfectly normal / adequate position for my ship and for that map. It was not as if I messed up. And the best part: his first torp salvo did not kill me; he ran out of oxygen, was forced to surface, but before I could get my guns around (roughly 90 degree turn in Lenin), he was able to dive again, and avoid getting hit. I was immediately shot-gunned to death.

 

[TheNubination]

Anti Sub-Hydro has way too long of a preparation time to actively play sub vs sub hunting which is probably the most fun in a sub!

[SuperRenard]

As expected the latest changes are a disaster, low performance players now use subs to quietly get into the enemy spawn while being ignored by the other low performance sub player, kill a ship which did nothing wrong and then get killed quickly in the process. This is the most boring design decision you've made about subs so far. As good positioning is not required for subs and negated for the players they killed, you removed any skill element from the game, so congratulations I guess. You've turned a somewhat skill based pvp game into chaos and I did not sign up for this.

 

The correct skill-based solution is to increase the ability for sub to target and kill other subs by dramatically improving homing capabilities on other submarines so that submarines don't get stuck in 5 minutes duels. The following step would be removing homing on surface ship classes so that the expression of skill also determines battle performance but is WG ready to embrace that kind of design?

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

18 hours ago, TheNubination said:

Anti Sub-Hydro has way too long of a preparation time to actively play sub vs sub hunting which is probably the most fun in a sub!

Lol the design team is all over the place. Usually a sign of panic or incompetence. Or both :D

It's funny ^^

[Nibenay78]

18 hours ago, TheNubination said:

Anti Sub-Hydro has way too long of a preparation time to actively play sub vs sub hunting which is probably the most fun in a sub!

Sub vs sub action should be encouraged a lot. Preferably it should last around 15-20 minutes.

[NewHorizons_1]

2 minutes ago, Nibenay78 said:

Sub vs sub action should be encouraged a lot. Preferably it should last around 15-20 minutes.

Surely that should be seconds?

Eliminate them from the match ASAP.

[Nibenay78]

2 minutes ago, NewHorizons_1 said:

Surely that should be seconds?

Eliminate them from the match ASAP.

That would be preferable, but i suppose one will kill the other and be free to ruin the enjoyment for the rest of us.

[JohnMac79]

19 hours ago, TheNubination said:

Anti Sub-Hydro has way too long of a preparation time to actively play sub vs sub hunting which is probably the most fun in a sub!

 

Sounds like putting them in their own game mode would suit everyone...

[Deckeru_Maiku]

5 hours ago, JohnMac79 said:

 

Sounds like putting them in their own game mode would suit everyone...

It wouldn't suit WG, as they would have come up with a new game mode and that's something they really, really, REALLY don't like to do at all... mostly because it would involve balancing... map design... mission design... lots of things they are neither good at or have a history of "getting it done properly".

[JohnMac79]

30 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

It wouldn't suit WG, as they would have come up with a new game mode and that's something they really, really, REALLY don't like to do at all...

 

Most of all it would require WG to admit their design is dog ... something they really really REALLY dont want to do.

[ghostbuster_]

Yesterday I had a sub in my team. that guy was sitting submerged in a cap where he was alone. he could have surfaced and taken the cap like 3 times. but instead, he remained submerged until his O2 ran out and then he had to surface. shortly after he died to secondaries of JB... btw. that player had more than 3.5k battles... thinking mans action game indeed. it was proved once again.