General Submarines related discussions

[ghostbuster_]

On 6/24/2022 at 1:42 PM, Fastmotion said:

2. The second question is actually described in my clan's forum.

soo, you mean you described that in your forum, where you are the one and only member? 

and how did the other you answer to your description? What comment did the other you make? 

[Pukovnik7]

On 6/23/2022 at 9:57 PM, Fastmotion said:

A very popular belief is that Wows is an arcade game. You can see in my posting history debates about that popular topic and other popular attitudes. When i ask peopel to define terms, including the term Arcade, then they have failed. Then i help them and suggest to use a better word like Realistic. Silently they agree with my suggestion and they fail to give examples how Wows is far from realism. Finally they try to say that in computer games you have health bars and other buttons and i nreal life you don't have and therefore all computer games are Arcade or in more adequare term: not realistic. Well, such explanation is not very valid.

 I repeat my opinion that Wows is very realistic game. There are some special campaigns or game modes where DDs shoot some kind of sci-fi waves and fire balls- those yes are little bit far from realism but only little bit. But Randoms are totally close to the realism. You don't have to agree with my opinion and knowing which opinions are allowed/common in your community then of course you all probably disagree but you can't give any adequate arguments, you just deny. I suggest to try one day to practice more argumentation/reasoning. you can practice with me. I have al lskills and already educated on that and other topics people and never failed i nnay debates. Come and practice proving me any of your community's believes. Or just look at my historical posts. There you see all those popular allowed opinions defeated.

 

In my opinion current subs appear very realistic on my screen. I don't see any anything wrong or bad in them. Nice vehicles.

On 6/23/2022 at 10:14 PM, Fastmotion said:

It does not matter who says or which highschool grades or Wows stats the sayer has.

I see nothing Arcade and i haven't seen any reasonable definition for such term either.

There is no need to believe in somebody or hold a community's believes. Try to explain yourself what is Arcade and how a ship looks Arcade to you?

I see that Wows is a Realistic game.

WOWS is an arcade game. Arcade games are defined by intuitive and simple controls with lack of realism.

 

For example:

 

Lock On: Modern Air Combat is an air combat simulator.

HAWX is an air combat arcade.

 

Cold Waters is a submarine combat simulator.

World of Warships is naval combat arcade.

 

By comparing these examples, you can see why WoWS is called an arcade, and is not, in fact, very realistic:

• controls are oversimplified
• physics are not properly simulated
• weapons behavior is simplified
• armor behavior is simplified
• damage models are simplified
• game is significantly compressed in both temporal and spatial terms

If WoWS was a simulator, it would:

• not have a health bar except as flooding progression
• not have infinite ammunition
• have much slower pace
• have complex damage models
• have complex weapons behavior models

It has none of that, therefore it is an arcade.

[Skyee_8492]

I never play this early in the day because im usually working and i rarely play random battles and this is why... 3 loses and 3 useless sub plays who just sail around the map doing nothing useful but just well literally sailing around the map despite targets being so close they could literally start throwing stones at the crew and do more damage   It really does have my head in my hands shaking my head because it is entirely frustrating watching it happen when a target is no more than 10km away and they just sail away, around or just look it like an enigma with no real reason not to engage other than they're just bad players . It definitely seems to be the new noobs go to. 

[Cuddly_Spider]

On 6/23/2022 at 9:57 PM, Fastmotion said:

A very popular belief is that Wows is an arcade game. You can see in my posting history debates about that popular topic and other popular attitudes. When i ask peopel to define terms, including the term Arcade, then they have failed. Then i help them and suggest to use a better word like Realistic. Silently they agree with my suggestion and they fail to give examples how Wows is far from realism. Finally they try to say that in computer games you have health bars and other buttons and i nreal life you don't have and therefore all computer games are Arcade or in more adequare term: not realistic. Well, such explanation is not very valid.

I repeat my opinion that Wows is very realistic game. There are some special campaigns or game modes where DDs shoot some kind of sci-fi waves and fire balls- those yes are little bit far from realism but only little bit. But Randoms are totally close to the realism. You don't have to agree with my opinion and knowing which opinions are allowed/common in your community then of course you all probably disagree but you can't give any adequate arguments, you just deny. I suggest to try one day to practice more argumentation/reasoning. you can practice with me. I have al lskills and already educated on that and other topics people and never failed i nnay debates. Come and practice proving me any of your community's believes. Or just look at my historical posts. There you see all those popular allowed opinions defeated.

 

In my opinion current subs appear very realistic on my screen. I don't see any anything wrong or bad in them. Nice vehicles.

I agree that subs are a nice addition to the game and have improved it a lot.

 

But the game is a pretty basic arcade game. In fact that's one of the main appeals of the game - you can put it aside for months, years even, then pick it up and play it again. Look at something like DCS where you basically need military training and a joystick with 200 buttons to play the thing, or even WoT where you need to study the game dynamics to be any good.

 

With the sub addition I think it's added a strategic element that was lacking before, but it retains the same quite basic and fun structure.

[ghostbuster_]

1 hour ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

or even WoT where you need to study the game dynamics to be any good.

another "thinking mans action game" post 

 

same goes for wows...to be good, you need to know the game mechanics in wows too. 

 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:03 AM, Cuddly_Spider said:

or even WoT where you need to study the game dynamics to be any good.

The irony and your WR in WOWS are just a happy coincidence  

[deathsadow]

On 6/30/2022 at 11:03 AM, Cuddly_Spider said:

I agree that subs are a nice addition to the game and have improved it a lot.

 

But the game is a pretty basic arcade game. In fact that's one of the main appeals of the game - you can put it aside for months, years even, then pick it up and play it again. Look at something like DCS where you basically need military training and a joystick with 200 buttons to play the thing, or even WoT where you need to study the game dynamics to be any good.

 

With the sub addition I think it's added a strategic element that was lacking before, but it retains the same quite basic and fun structure.

If you think subs add strategic element to the game that means you know nothing about strategy ...

 

Subs are literally the dumbest thing this game can offer. Dive move forward trough middle , if you see a ship come up 2-3km from it & nuke the hell out of it point blank by torps ... dive back & and move away. Or if you know absolutely nothing about the game ... stay on range & spam pings and homing torps mindlessly. You need more skill for damn minecraft than to play subs.

[Spellfire40]

22 minutes ago, deathsadow said:

If you think subs add strategic element to the game that means you know nothing about strategy ...

 

Subs are literally the dumbest thing this game can offer. Dive move forward trough middle , if you see a ship come up 2-3km from it & nuke the hell out of it point blank by torps ... dive back & and move away. Or if you know absolutely nothing about the game ... stay on range & spam pings and homing torps mindlessly. You need more skill for damn minecraft than to play subs.

And if you play it that way you get 20 to 50 k in a T8-10 game "clap clap clap" nice impact you got for one team slot. that can be done with most classes playing like an idiot. Sounds like you havent played subs yourself pinging just paints a big target on you and endsure that everybody that has more than 2 braincells autodoge your torps. Ping is exclusivly for sub vs sub combat.... or to distract one of the last few surviving ships so they cant fokus to do even a little damage to half your team chasing them.

[deathsadow]

1 minute ago, Spellfire40 said:

And if you play it that way you get 20 to 50 k in a T8-10 game "clap clap clap" nice impact you got for one team slot. that can be done with most classes playing like an idiot.

But unlike in a DD or Cruiser the bottow dweller will stay alive all game long feeling like he acomplished something. And even a really good player would have way more carry potencial in the other classes than as a sub.

 

Subs are a low effort low impact class, designed for the worst of the worst in the playerbase. If you want to play stealth and torps and you are not totally potato, you will allways be more impactfull to the games outcome in a DD than in a sub.

[deathsadow]

On 6/29/2022 at 12:22 PM, Pukovnik7 said:

WOWS is an arcade game. Arcade games are defined by intuitive and simple controls with lack of realism.

 

For example:

 

Lock On: Modern Air Combat is an air combat simulator.

HAWX is an air combat arcade.

 

Cold Waters is a submarine combat simulator.

World of Warships is naval combat arcade.

 

By comparing these examples, you can see why WoWS is called an arcade, and is not, in fact, very realistic:

• controls are oversimplified
• physics are not properly simulated
• weapons behavior is simplified
• armor behavior is simplified
• damage models are simplified
• game is significantly compressed in both temporal and spatial terms

If WoWS was a simulator, it would:

• not have a health bar except as flooding progression
• not have infinite ammunition
• have much slower pace
• have complex damage models
• have complex weapons behavior models

It has none of that, therefore it is an arcade.

Yup WoWs is totally arcade ... but who would have time to play a realistic naval pvp game, the matches would just take sooo long, and probably hours before the match end one side would know that they have lost it already :P

 

Sinking the Bismark took like 12 hours for the Royal Navy ... now think about sinking 5 BBs of that protection level or higher in each T8-10 game.

[Spellfire40]

4 minutes ago, deathsadow said:

But unlike in a DD or Cruiser the bottow dweller will stay alive all game long feeling like he acomplished something. And even a really good player would have way more carry potencial in the other classes than as a sub.

 

Subs are a low effort low impact class, designed for the worst of the worst in the playerbase. If you want to play stealth and torps and you are not totally potato, you will allways be more impactfull to the games outcome in a DD than in a sub.

Not really if midlessly ping around and the enemy dont for some reason disperse and yolo in slingleflile with 7km distance every 60 seconds into you your the 1st to 2ed ship sunk. Most of the time you fire low damage torps from range and hope like any other torp platform your oponent dont remembers he has a A or D key. Geting in range for your high dam torps is VERY risky with nearly 50% of all BBS (and all CA/CL thaks to AA being useless) that are often played having hydro. and BB atackplanes are very low skill low risk if someone else spots you. Yea you can get past ships that no DD can but then your stuck behind lines with a limited steath since your underwater enduance isnt limitless. Add to that an atack vector that requires you to eitehr directly run into your target or fully run away from it.

 

Play a few rounds (if you have the credits to equip the boats wich isnt inexpenceive) and you can see what they can and canot do. And no im not saying tehy are good as they are now. They should nuke backwards padeling BBs out of the water instead of having the best homing agist cruisers or DDs pinged in smoke for example and DDs shouldnt get sunk by raming them at periscope deept either.

[deathsadow]

3 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

Not really if midlessly ping around and the enemy dont for some reason disperse and yolo in slingleflile with 7km distance every 60 seconds into you your the 1st to 2ed ship sunk. Most of the time you fire low damage torps from range and hope like any other torp platform your oponent dont remembers he has a A or D key. Geting in range for your high dam torps is VERY risky with nearly 50% of all BBS (and all CA/CL thaks to AA being useless) that are often played having hydro. and BB atackplanes are very low skill low risk if someone else spots you. Yea you can get past ships that no DD can but then your stuck behind lines with a limited steath since your underwater enduance isnt limitless. Add to that an atack vector that requires you to eitehr directly run into your target or fully run away from it.

 

Play a few rounds (if you have the credits to equip the boats wich isnt inexpenceive) and you can see what they can and canot do. And no im not saying tehy are good as they are now. They should nuke backwards padeling BBs out of the water instead of having the best homing agist cruisers or DDs pinged in smoke for example and DDs shouldnt get sunk by raming them at periscope deept either.

 

Tbh i only tried the Tier X German one a few patch ago , and had 2 kills and i wasnt ever in danger of getting sunk in B cap all game long. Im not sure how much WG changed on it but when i played it had like 4min + the consumable of dive time , pretty good speed even underwater & rapid regen of capacity when surfaced & hydro didnt seem to be spotting me on max depth. Im not sure how WG changed those since it was a boring experiance for me to play that sub so i didnt pick it up since than.

 

I dont mind what they can do to BBs, and tbh i dont even consider subs OP. I just got shocked that someone thinks that subs add "strategic element" to the game, in my opinion they are just extremly boring, and they force a static campy meta to the match they get into, so they are as strategic as a Conqueror or Thunderer.

 

If someone wants to add strategic element to the game he should better try ships like the Venezia or the Italian DD or any of the French branch, those are the ships which add strategic gameplay to the match, as you need to adapt both with your guns (SAP usage or the MBRB timing) and with your positioning ( speed boosting for reposition or smoking)  to maximise the effect

[Spellfire40]

1 hour ago, deathsadow said:

 

Tbh i only tried the Tier X German one a few patch ago , and had 2 kills and i wasnt ever in danger of getting sunk in B cap all game long. Im not sure how much WG changed on it but when i played it had like 4min + the consumable of dive time , pretty good speed even underwater & rapid regen of capacity when surfaced & hydro didnt seem to be spotting me on max depth. Im not sure how WG changed those since it was a boring experiance for me to play that sub so i didnt pick it up since than.

 

I dont mind what they can do to BBs, and tbh i dont even consider subs OP. I just got shocked that someone thinks that subs add "strategic element" to the game, in my opinion they are just extremly boring, and they force a static campy meta to the match they get into, so they are as strategic as a Conqueror or Thunderer.

 

If someone wants to add strategic element to the game he should better try ships like the Venezia or the Italian DD or any of the French branch, those are the ships which add strategic gameplay to the match, as you need to adapt both with your guns (SAP usage or the MBRB timing) and with your positioning ( speed boosting for reposition or smoking)  to maximise the effect

T10 german is quite slugish in handling thogh patch will take care a bit out of that it also has the highest endurance and underwater speed something the t6/8 cant boot and their speed will get nerfed  along with some modules that increase endurance.

 

As they stand Subs are Dds with a diferent kind of escape mechanic then again ru Heavy CA were BBS with a higher rate of fire basically  as German gunboats are cl without a cit and so forth. I agree that they bring nothing "strategic" but nerther does any of the newer classes most of the time they just crap on classes that dont exactly needs shiting on due their places in the meta anyhow.

 

The only upside is that they arent paper ships or 1950+ then again some probposed prems and the ru T8 are . T10 ru is probably an Alpha (thogh they might left that for the supership ru sub)

[Pukovnik7]

15 hours ago, deathsadow said:

Yup WoWs is totally arcade ... but who would have time to play a realistic naval pvp game, the matches would just take sooo long, and probably hours before the match end one side would know that they have lost it already :P

 

Sinking the Bismark took like 12 hours for the Royal Navy ... now think about sinking 5 BBs of that protection level or higher in each T8-10 game.

Yeah, I know. There is a reason why naval simulators a) are single-player and b) have an option to speed up the time.

 

But I still hate it when people think that World of Warships and similar games* are "simulators" or "realistic", because it feeds a completely incorrect idea of either a) what simulators are or b) what warfare really was like.

 

*DON'T get me started on HAWX.

[deathsadow]

4 hours ago, Pukovnik7 said:

Yeah, I know. There is a reason why naval simulators a) are single-player and b) have an option to speed up the time.

 

But I still hate it when people think that World of Warships and similar games* are "simulators" or "realistic", because it feeds a completely incorrect idea of either a) what simulators are or b) what warfare really was like.

 

*DON'T get me started on HAWX.

Well is someone thinks WoWs is realistic than he must have really little knowledge about naval warfare. The only slightly realistic naval game i played sofar was Ultimate Admirals Dreadnought & the speed ups there are 3,5,10x and some rounds still take a good 30-40 minutes.

 

WoWs is a very simplified game, but with the surface ships WG pretty much managed to find a good spot where the fight is fast phased enough to be fun for most of the matches. The CV and submarine implementation went a bit worng in my opinion CVs are too impactfull concept wise but to be fair they were re-defining naval warfare during WW2 aswell, and subs would probably need their own mode or even an PvE operation where all the participating ships and subs would be balanced accordingly. Probably if WG would make a proper convoy mode with decent rewards where 1 side with DDs and CLs or maybe even a dedicated escort CV with ASW could fight it out vs a bunch of submarines and maybe a raiding CA or BC.

[Pukovnik7]

14 hours ago, deathsadow said:

Well is someone thinks WoWs is realistic than he must have really little knowledge about naval warfare. The only slightly realistic naval game i played sofar was Ultimate Admirals Dreadnought & the speed ups there are 3,5,10x and some rounds still take a good 30-40 minutes.

 

Try Rule the Waves.

14 hours ago, deathsadow said:

WoWs is a very simplified game, but with the surface ships WG pretty much managed to find a good spot where the fight is fast phased enough to be fun for most of the matches. The CV and submarine implementation went a bit worng in my opinion CVs are too impactfull concept wise but to be fair they were re-defining naval warfare during WW2 aswell, and subs would probably need their own mode or even an PvE operation where all the participating ships and subs would be balanced accordingly. Probably if WG would make a proper convoy mode with decent rewards where 1 side with DDs and CLs or maybe even a dedicated escort CV with ASW could fight it out vs a bunch of submarines and maybe a raiding CA or BC.

Agreed.

[Corocotta15]

Today, a battle with 6 subs. Pathetic

[UboatAirSupremacy]

Having submarines as a new class in the game is a lot of fun, new exciting naval action and joy

Fast motion gameplay!

[deathsadow]

On 7/1/2022 at 9:46 PM, Spellfire40 said:

T10 german is quite slugish in handling thogh patch will take care a bit out of that it also has the highest endurance and underwater speed something the t6/8 cant boot and their speed will get nerfed  along with some modules that increase endurance.

 

As they stand Subs are Dds with a diferent kind of escape mechanic then again ru Heavy CA were BBS with a higher rate of fire basically  as German gunboats are cl without a cit and so forth. I agree that they bring nothing "strategic" but nerther does any of the newer classes most of the time they just crap on classes that dont exactly needs shiting on due their places in the meta anyhow.

 

The only upside is that they arent paper ships or 1950+ then again some probposed prems and the ru T8 are . T10 ru is probably an Alpha (thogh they might left that for the supership ru sub)

Not yet paper ...

 

Anyways imho they just make the game more boring ... but anyway i guess WG run out of stuff to release as surface ship, the ones released in the last few years were pretty niche and mostly off meta ships ( Elbing, Vermont, Leeuw ..and probably many more) ,or outright powercreep of an older line like Petro , Delny or Ohio.

 

WG should focus on makeing ships which promote a faster more agressive meta ( like the new German BC or the ITA DD line) & subs just do the exact opposite.

 

 

[Karkong_the_Impaler]

I propose subs only get access to deep water torps. They would remain deadly enough by simply looking at the DD.

 

Realism? I see you and raise you a supershit CV... it's arcade anyway, no DD could he spam a BB and get away with it.

[ghostbuster_]

Did you guys see the new dev blog? 

 

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/340#:~:text=The settings for,Low Frequency Hydrophone.

 

"Due to the interaction patterns of the submarines, they often accidentally detect each other. This causes them to get caught in an air strike and also forces them to engage in a duel without being able to get out of it safely."

 

this reasoning... just mind blowing. "DDs has been detecting eachother "accidentally" since alpha. other class might also detect eachother "accidentally". but subs? noooo. nooo this shouldnt be the case. we gave them more HP than DDs and they have the french saturation and they are undetectable by other ships meaning they are able to get into complete safety but nooo we can not allow them to detect eachother "accidentally" noo this is very bad comrade nooo." 

[Lootboxer]

1 hour ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Did you guys see the new dev blog? 

 

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/340#:~:text=The settings for,Low Frequency Hydrophone.

 

"Due to the interaction patterns of the submarines, they often accidentally detect each other. This causes them to get caught in an air strike and also forces them to engage in a duel without being able to get out of it safely."

 

this reasoning... just mind blowing. "DDs has been detecting eachother "accidentally" since alpha. other class might also detect eachother "accidentally". but subs? noooo. nooo this shouldnt be the case. we gave them more HP than DDs and they have the french saturation and they are undetectable by other ships meaning they are able to get into complete safety but nooo we can not allow them to detect eachother "accidentally" noo this is very bad comrade nooo." 

They've completely lost it, they will do anything no matter how game breaking just to make them as idiot proof as possible in a hope that subs will make all those promised money.

Either directly in a store or indirectly by selling a solution - new premium ASW ships or support CVs with ASW, or whatever new surprise mechanics/early access scam they will figure out upon launching new lines.

 

"The Upper Lookout Hydrolocator shows the position of surface ships and illuminates the bottom topography;"

Seems logic, looking up at ships yet showing bottom topography

[lovelacebeer]

The fact that WG consider subs blundering into each other and then having to fight it out and may get helped by observant teammates to be an accident, but if DDs do the same thing that’s ok (and to be fair I’m very happy with the idea you should be supporting teammates who spot) but deliberately nerfing teamwork to help submarines out shows just how badly WG cannot figure out how to make submarines work. 

 

 

At this point the whole damnable project is summed up by:

 

[NewHorizons_1]

Back when subs were initially introduced, and the hydrophone had a sensible preparation time**, I went out to deliberately search for the bot subs the first time I tried subs in co-op.

I sank both, and came 3rd on the scoreboard IIRC.

Since that hydrophone nerf I've not touched them, apart from one or two training room matches with clan mates.

I guess I was playing subs completely wrong ... according to WG.

 

** Not the length of quick a co-op match like it is now. So you can use it as the last ship get sunk.

[Andrewbassg]

11 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Did you guys see the new dev blog? 

 

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/340#:~:text=The settings for,Low Frequency Hydrophone.

 

"Due to the interaction patterns of the submarines, they often accidentally detect each other. This causes them to get caught in an air strike and also forces them to engage in a duel without being able to get out of it safely."

 

this reasoning... just mind blowing. "DDs has been detecting eachother "accidentally" since alpha. other class might also detect eachother "accidentally". but subs? noooo. nooo this shouldnt be the case. we gave them more HP than DDs and they have the french saturation and they are undetectable by other ships meaning they are able to get into complete safety but nooo we can not allow them to detect eachother "accidentally" noo this is very bad comrade nooo." 

Honestly........ I can't believe what I'm reading..  This is another "stun bombs" moment.