General Submarines related discussions

[De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit]

2 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

The problem is that ANY class to be introduced into the game has to be enjoyable to play, but also to be enjoyable to play against. THAT needs to be combined with the fact that that class must be balanced in a way that it does NOT upset the game balance, the impact of the quality of the player is NOT too big (the massive problem with RTS CVs), and must be acceptable in solo, and in divisions.

  

CV already struggles to meet these requirements (and in some aspects arguably does not).

 

Yep, agreed.

 

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Submarines do barely even meet any of these requirements, let alone check enough of them, and the problem is that many of the mechanisms introduced make them inceredibly un-fun to play against. All means that would make them more fun/acceptable to play against, would make them either (a) completely un--fun to play, and/or make the impact of the quality of the player too big (reintroducing the RTS CV problem).

 

 

Fair, although whether subs are fun to play, fun to play against may differ from person to person. Personally I don't really mind having a new concept entering the game. The main 'struggle' in my opinion is: WOWS is build and balanced around guns. Gunboats. So having a class or 2 that do not have guns is causing all this uproar. Not being able to shoot subs, not being able to fight CVs etc...

 

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Sure, in any class you have people who manage to put up crazy numbers, and/or dominate games. But usually those players are very good in BB, DD AND Cruiser. What you see with submarines (and slightly lesser extent CVs) is that players who do acceptable (or even worse) can put up crazy numbers in submarines fairly consistently. One or two of them have also popped up in this thread (slightly above average in 3 main classes, suddenly averaging 150k damage and 2-3 kills per game in a submarine over hundreds of games, and a winrate 10 percentage points higher than ANY other class). That is the certain sign the class is broken.

 

I have to call bias on this one. Slightly above average players who can produce 150k average damage numbers in subs? Not buying that at all. 150k in a T10 sub are my very best games, as a prime example of an above average player as described above. Now sure, there will always be people who have a certain class they feel very comfortable in. Likewise there are average players who can consistently put up very good numbers in BBs while being mere average in all other classes. 

 

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That the general numbers are not even more skewed showing submarines being too powerful / not fitting the game as such, has a number of reasons:

 

• Quite a few of the very good players refuse to play them, simply because they do not think they fit in the game (fundamentally opposed), or because they do not offer any challenge in their play to them (they are far too easy).
• A lot of bad players or barely above average players seem to gravitate towards playing submarines. Players who simply are able to use the mechanics to their full potential, which some of the average and the good players are - subsequently wrecking games.
•  A ton of players are playing submarines while they have NO business playing them, simply because of the stupid way WG made them available (slightly improved this time, but still...), which massively skews the numbers downward. I am talking about players with like 30 Random Battles experience (less than 130 games in all modes total!), playing T10 submarines. 

 

There may be some truth to these assumptions. I agree with you about the new players having access to T8 and T10 subs. I firmly believe they should first have at least 1 researchable T8 or T10 before being able to get the equivalent tier sub. 

Now about the other assumptions. The number of very good players is actually not that big of a number. Players with a WR > 54% only account for 10% of the playerbase. 50% of all players have a WR < 48%.

You may have a strong argument for the inflated numbers due to bad players playing subs (assuming they do, more so than average+ players). 20% of the playerbase has a WR <44%. 

 

I am actually very curious to the data of subs during updates 11.2 and 11.3. Especially how they compare to the previous data shared in the dev blog. 

[The_Angry_Admiral]

Haven't read up on the sub update but WTF were they thinking by removing the ping trail? Now we just get pinged automatically with no way to dodge. Wargaming always knows how to cause a trainwreck again after the train has already come off the tracks.

[JohnMac79]

8 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

 

Besides, I have checked some of the anti-sub players records and what it often shows is the lack of submarine experience. Often 0 submarine games under their belts. 

Of course, because im not a griefer so i wont play them.

 

I dont need to roll around in dog poop to know its not healthy, and if someone is throwing handfuls of dog poop around and telling me it is chanel no.5 in solid form, i dont need to grab a handful myself to check…

[Shirakami_Kon]

1 hour ago, The_Angry_Admiral said:

Haven't read up on the sub update but WTF were they thinking by removing the ping trail? Now we just get pinged automatically with no way to dodge. Wargaming always knows how to cause a trainwreck again after the train has already come off the tracks.

Actually I agree with this one, after reducing the distance at which the new wake effect when a submarine pings appears from the submarine it's ok-ish, but I think the ping trail should have remained as it was at the same time.

[Dutchy_2019]

7 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

 

Yep, agreed.

 

 

Fair, although whether subs are fun to play, fun to play against may differ from person to person. Personally I don't really mind having a new concept entering the game. The main 'struggle' in my opinion is: WOWS is build and balanced around guns. Gunboats. So having a class or 2 that do not have guns is causing all this uproar. Not being able to shoot subs, not being able to fight CVs etc...

 

OK - so we agree somewhat in agreement here. I think the bolded is the easy non-argument of the proponents (which you also often see in the real world by those who advocate change) to dismiss any criticism of their plans (including people pointing out massive flaws): we say opponents are opposed to change, therefore any arguments and criticism they bring in are to be dismissed (and if things fail, we can always blame them, not our own mistakes (if not outright stupidity)).

 

7 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

I have to call bias on this one. Slightly above average players who can produce 150k average damage numbers in subs? Not buying that at all. 150k in a T10 sub are my very best games, as a prime example of an above average player as described above. Now sure, there will always be people who have a certain class they feel very comfortable in. Likewise there are average players who can consistently put up very good numbers in BBs while being mere average in all other classes. 

 

I have looked up the stats on a number of them - and them stats of them (and their own comments). And when looking at their stats, you see a big between submarine stats and any other class.

 

 

7 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

There may be some truth to these assumptions. I agree with you about the new players having access to T8 and T10 subs. I firmly believe they should first have at least 1 researchable T8 or T10 before being able to get the equivalent tier sub. 

Now about the other assumptions. The number of very good players is actually not that big of a number. Players with a WR > 54% only account for 10% of the playerbase. 50% of all players have a WR < 48%.

You may have a strong argument for the inflated numbers due to bad players playing subs (assuming they do, more so than average+ players). 20% of the playerbase has a WR <44%. 

 

I am actually very curious to the data of subs during updates 11.2 and 11.3. Especially how they compare to the previous data shared in the dev blog. 

 

And how many WR > 54% players have played a substantial number of games in submarines? I do NOT know of many. And those few I know of, tend to be able to put up crazy numbers, and all comment how boring submarines are to play. Many of them are also saying that submarines should NOT be put in the game, and give arguments (which are usually either ignored or dismissed with the "you are opposed to change" argument). A good number of them are not fundamentally opposed to submarines being in the game in any way, shape or form - but put them into special modes (like say, Convoy). 

Even many of the folks who started out neutral (or even slightly positive) are now negative about them, and say that they do NOT belong in Randoms, and have a hard time coming up with means that would make them a fit.

 

 

On a more fundamental (WG / Devs level), this whole things smells as if there are a few ego's on the Dev team that have submarines as their pet project, misinterpreted data (the submarine Halloween Event), got some management backing, and are unwilling to accept that their ideas simply do not work - and nobody in the company/dev team is willing or able to stand up to them. Or even worse, there is a massive case of groupthink going on over there. 

 

[Cuddly_Spider]

15 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

Sure, in any class you have people who manage to put up crazy numbers, and/or dominate games. But usually those players are very good in BB, DD AND Cruiser. What you see with submarines (and slightly lesser extent CVs) is that players who do acceptable (or even worse) can put up crazy numbers in submarines fairly consistently. One or two of them have also popped up in this thread (slightly above average in 3 main classes, suddenly averaging 150k damage and 2-3 kills per game in a submarine over hundreds of games, and a winrate 10 percentage points higher than ANY other class). That is the certain sign the class is broken. 

 

It could also be a sign that such players find the sub gameplay suits them more than the ship gameplay and they find they're better in that class.

 

I'd wager many doubloons you'd find exceptional DD or BB players who can't do well in subs either.

[AndyHill]

[Shirakami_Kon]

6 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Idk if to laugh or cry...

[Dutchy_2019]

28 minutes ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

It could also be a sign that such players find the sub gameplay suits them more than the ship gameplay and they find they're better in that class.

 

Possibly (probably) the primary reason why people find that? Because WG DELIBERATELY made submarines relatively easy to play / easy to put up high damage numbers (just as they did with CV's, something they have openly stated) to get people to play them. And they have openly stated that they will continue to buff submarines to make them popular enough to have a set percentage of players playing them. And even in the seriously defective condition they currently are in (and were in previous iterations) WG failed to reach their target number!

 

They do NOT do the same with DDs, BBs, and Cruisers. If anything, they seem to try to make life for DDs (at least) consistently much harder.

 

28 minutes ago, Cuddly_Spider said:

I'd wager many doubloons you'd find exceptional DD or BB players who can't do well in subs either.

 

There undoubtedly are (though I would guess much more rare), but there is quite well be a massive difference:

 

• Much of them playing badly in submarines is because they have few if any games in them.
• I would be stunned if many of them perform THAT much better (damage numbers and WinRate being 10 percentage points or so better) in DDs or BBs than in ANY other class, assuming they have a decent number of games played in all three classes. Where you tend to see people many submarine players doing much better in submarines than in any other class.

 

 

[Cuddly_Spider]

36 minutes ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

Possibly (probably) the primary reason why people find that? Because WG DELIBERATELY made submarines relatively easy to play / easy to put up high damage numbers (just as they did with CV's, something they have openly stated) to get people to play them. And they have openly stated that they will continue to buff submarines to make them popular enough to have a set percentage of players playing them. And even in the seriously defective condition they currently are in (and were in previous iterations) WG failed to reach their target number!

 

They do NOT do the same with DDs, BBs, and Cruisers. If anything, they seem to try to make life for DDs (at least) consistently much harder.

 

 

There undoubtedly are (though I would guess much more rare), but there is quite well be a massive difference:

 

• Much of them playing badly in submarines is because they have few if any games in them.
• I would be stunned if many of them perform THAT much better (damage numbers and WinRate being 10 percentage points or so better) in DDs or BBs than in ANY other class, assuming they have a decent number of games played in all three classes. Where you tend to see people many submarine players doing much better in submarines than in any other class.

 

 

 

Your logic would be unimpeachable were it not for two factors that don't agree with this line of reasoning.

 

1. The relative difficulty of each vehicle class is not a linear scale - the same person can perform with different level of across all vehicles vs another person, and there are people who specialise in a particular vehicle class also.

 

2. Subs are matched with each other, therefore you can't use WR as a measure of Subs being overpowered because they are cancelling each other out on that metric. In fact it further weakens your logic because, if someone is performing particularly well in a sub, then they must be contributing to a reduction in WR to other Sub players who are on opposing teams, establishing that the player rather than the vehicle is the significant factor.

 

That isn't to say that your conclusion is wrong; you could be 100% correct in your assertions. But the logic you've used to get there is flawed.

[De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit]

8 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

OK - so we agree somewhat in agreement here. I think the bolded is the easy non-argument of the proponents (which you also often see in the real world by those who advocate change) to dismiss any criticism of their plans (including people pointing out massive flaws): we say opponents are opposed to change, therefore any arguments and criticism they bring in are to be dismissed (and if things fail, we can always blame them, not our own mistakes (if not outright stupidity)).

  

 

The argument of 'opposed to change' is a failed argument indeed. Because it never adresses the issue. 

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And how many WR > 54% players have played a substantial number of games in submarines? I do NOT know of many. And those few I know of, tend to be able to put up crazy numbers, and all comment how boring submarines are to play. Many of them are also saying that submarines should NOT be put in the game, and give arguments (which are usually either ignored or dismissed with the "you are opposed to change" argument). A good number of them are not fundamentally opposed to submarines being in the game in any way, shape or form - but put them into special modes (like say, Convoy). 

Even many of the folks who started out neutral (or even slightly positive) are now negative about them, and say that they do NOT belong in Randoms, and have a hard time coming up with means that would make them a fit.

I think what it really just boils down to is to which group we play with/talk to etc. People I play with regularly might share and echo my sentiments about subs, while your associates will echo your view more :) Then again, some players are performing really well in one particular class, just because it suits them. It isn't a given that any player automatically performs better in CVs either, for example. Just look at my stats lol. 

2 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

 Possibly (probably) the primary reason why people find that? Because WG DELIBERATELY made submarines relatively easy to play / easy to put up high damage numbers (just as they did with CV's, something they have openly stated) to get people to play them. 

 

In my experience? Simply not true. Subs are not on a difficulty level on par with CVs. They're way harder to play. For multiple reasons. Your situational awareness has to be on point and you have to take a lot of things into account. You have to know when to dive, when to submerge. You have to read the situation: when to push, when to go for caps, when to ping, when to kite. Is their an ambush opportunity? Where are the enemy DDs, or where could they potentially be? What happens when I get spotted? Do I get smashed, or is there a good chance of surviving? There simply is a lot more complexity to playing subs, especially compared with CVs who can just park at the back of the map and freely farm damage. In order for subs to do a lot of damage, it isn't a simple matter of sailing to the closest BB nearby and spam him to death with homing torps lol. I'd say in terms of difficulty, subs are more in line with BBs and heavy cruisers. DDs and light cruisers are the most challenging classes to play, with CVs as the easiest. 

[Yedwy]

My feedback on the current sub iteration WG...

 

You are all insane

[RamboCras]

Every game with subs there are 1 or 2 with under 200XP and it's a fricking miracle if they go over 500-600xp.

 

Can you stop with the subs? You can hardly get ANY hitpoints of them. You have proved it by now... subs = failure, sorry for the development done, use it for a 100% submarine game but get it out of WoW.  Try for the 3rd time in 2 years (with the same result as the first 2 times), but hey... you guys don't learn.

 

 

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

sooo btw. anyone here seen the current stats of U-4501, another german Tier X Sub?

41 knots underwater. Without flags or skills added. and with 4 launchers forward and 6 launchers rarward.

[159Hunter]

33 minutes ago, GrossadmiralThrawn said:

sooo btw. anyone here seen the current stats of U-4501, another german Tier X Sub?

41 knots underwater. Without flags or skills added. and with 4 launchers forward and 6 launchers rarward.

Wait till the USSR subs arrive... 

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

2 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Wait till the USSR subs arrive... 

USSR not getting subs. USSR getting space ships that can submerse. Or fly. Or swim.

[159Hunter]

3 minutes ago, GrossadmiralThrawn said:

USSR not getting subs. USSR getting space ships that can submerse. Or fly. Or swim.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

2 hours ago, GrossadmiralThrawn said:

sooo btw. anyone here seen the current stats of U-4501, another german Tier X Sub?

41 knots underwater. Without flags or skills added. and with 4 launchers forward and 6 launchers rarward.

Bwahahaha. Seriously?

[GrossadmiralThrawn]

4 minutes ago, Europizza said:

Bwahahaha. Seriously?

yep. Also like 70 seconds longer battery time than U-2501

[Shirakami_Kon]

2 hours ago, GrossadmiralThrawn said:

USSR not getting subs. USSR getting space ships that can submerse. Or fly. Or swim.

To be honest we've already had a movie featuring footage of WoWS gameplay against USSR submarines. It looks something like this.

 

 

[NewHorizons_1]

8 hours ago, RamboCras said:

Every game with subs there are 1 or 2 with under 200XP and it's a fricking miracle if they go over 500-600xp.

Co-op or randoms?

But yeah, the release of subs, especially high tier ones, to less experienced players is deffo a factor.

[stormguard]

just chased a balao in a bb together with a 60% wr kaba player. took 10min to kill him and only died when ran out of air. dropped on all "surface animations". took 50k dmg from the sub, doesnt matter if u dcp or not since the torps are so fast you cant juke them anyway even in a pr. the sub almost killed the kaaba at the end. meanwhile we wasted 10min from the actual game. if we ignore the sub he just kills me for free and continues.

 

the spotting needs to be fixed was litteraly driving over him with hydro wo spotting. they need to be nerfed when on surface they just play like a dd now that can dive. dropbomb planes should spot the sub and dmg radius need to be increased.

 

right now there is NO COUNTERPLAY in most situations, that can be fine if you can avoid puting yourself in that situtation but you cant since its always the sub that can dictate the engagement and you usually have no intel to work with.

 

ive played this itteration of subs myself 2 skillpoint captain without eqp, finshed 2nd with 3 kills 80k dmg. i have no idea what im doing yet i can be that sucessful its not right :)

[159Hunter]

15 hours ago, Shirakami_Kon said:

To be honest we've already had a movie featuring footage of WoWS gameplay against USSR submarines. It looks something like this.

To be fair, this is sub 30% WR sub player vs 70%WR BB player. Only reason BB won... just saying :D

[Maris_Piper]

To voice my thoughts on WG's antics would get me banned again

 

 

[HarmlessTed]

When will submarines be removed?