General Submarines related discussions

[Bland_42]

50 minuti fa, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit ha scritto:

 

It takes a little bit of practice and experience. Mostly the latter, as you will remember the cut-off point at which the torpedo's will stop homing so you can better set up your evasive manoevring. It seems you started turning too early. 

I made 2 direction changes.

The first for sure I was to distant from the torp, but the second one... I'm not convinced.

The problem is that I can not calculate the real distance, so even now it's only a speculation of mine.

 

I have thinked that maybe the torp stopped the active lead between the last 2 screenshot... but even in the last one I was still turning, even if in the act of stopping to do it, so if it was going in direction of my previous trajectory the torp didn't must come on me after I stopped turning. And if it stopped to track me after the last screenshot, it was absurdly close to me.

[De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit]

22 minutes ago, Bland_42 said:

I made 2 direction changes.

The first for sure I was to distant from the torp, but the second one... I'm not convinced.

The problem is that I can not calculate the real distance, so even now it's only a speculation of mine.

 

I have thinked that maybe the torp stopped the active lead between the last 2 screenshot... but even in the last one I was still turning, even if in the act of stopping to do it, so if it was going in direction of my previous trajectory the torp didn't must come on me after I stopped turning. And if it stopped to track me after the last screenshot, it was absurdly close to me.

I see. 

I don't know if this helps, but I've just searched for the distance homing is turned off: 

 

Quote

The range at which homing is switched off is 2.1 km for battleships, 1.2 km for aircraft carriers, 720 m for cruisers (360 in case of double sonar ping effect), and 240 m for destroyers and submarines (120 in case of double sonar ping effect).

 

So it could very well be possible that the sub had locked a double ping on you? Not sure, as I couldn't make it up from the screenshots. In that case, homing only stopped at 360m away from you, which is really close indeed. Being double pinged in a heavy cruiser is almost impossible to dodge, as I can recall from my own experience.

 

Personally when I'm pinged and I know torpedo's are incoming, I try to sail in a predictable course, maintaining constant speed while being somewhere between 30-45 degrees angled to the incoming torpedo's. Then when I suspect homing is going to be switched off, I drop all speed (slam brakes) and turn in hard. Or turn out, depending the direction the torpedo's were fired from obviously. I don't know if this helps you, but I hope it does!

 

[Corocotta15]

One sub in a battle is a nasty battle. And nobody will change that. Simply, is not fun.

[_I_love_my_Loliboats]

Today I learned, I shouldn't play on weekends. Had a few games yesterday, in every single one of them 2 subs and a carrier per team. Add the 50% cyclone chance and the game is guarantueed to make you angry.

Also: don't even bother to hunt subs as a DD. Usually it goes like this: you spot sub in 4km distance, you shoot at hit, you stay detected while sub submerges, whole enemy team bullies you for 20 seconds while avoiding shitloads of sub torps.

[Dutchy_2019]

8 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

 

Playing the devil's advocate here, because there is a lot of questionable criticism here. The improved ping locator is in theory a good idea, and an improvement over what we have right now. Because again, in theory, it should not only give the direction of the sub away but also the aproximate location. Now with the current flaws, I'm glad it's still in testing and guess what? That's what testing is for.

 

As it currently is, the current ping-locator is even more useless than the old ping-trail mechanic. The problem could easily have been solved by just taking away the artifical range cap on the ping locator. As it currrently is, it is an absolyute joke.

 

The 'that is what testing is for'  argument is getting tiresome: WG has been TESTING this stuff in a life game environment for the past 9 months (arguably actually a year), unleashing it upon the whole player base. To call that "testing" is getting close to Orwellian newspeak, in the same way as this game ifficially has never officially been released (being in version 0.something.something.something). The testing has consistently shown that submarines do NOT fit properly into the Randoms / Co-op / Ranked / CB environment CONSISTENTLY over those 9 months. Very few people have been positive about the way submarines have been implemented. Even the way the "testing" has been done is completely f***ed up, and will artificially hide how OP subs actually are (since submarines can be played by EVERYONE, including players who currently should NEVER hav access to them (especially the T8 and T10 subs).

 

8 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

 

Subs can be hard spotted, just like any other surface vessel. In such cases, the EXACT location/speed is given away just like all the other classes. The pinging is giving you EXTRA information. It's like a soft spotting mechanic. Needless to say, subs only rely on torps so comparing them with gun vessels is not fitting. As if an Asashio or Shima is going to the open sea guns blazing, same idea.

 

Subs can be hard spotted when on the surface. Then they dive, and hard spotting is gone, without ANY repercussions, they can do this time and again. In a way that NO other ship class can, not even close. And UNLIKE ANY other class, they can move in ANY direction while unspotted, including towards the enemy team, and STAY unspotted.

 

8 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

DDs are absolutelly not powerless against subs. That is the biggest bull I've seen on the forums the last few months. Again, nuance is important. I would agree with early- to mid game, where DDs are just going to be hard spotted the moment they hunt subs. Simply suicidal? Yes, in many  cases that's true. Mid- to late game? There is no better vessel I'd rather be in than a DD, if I want to hunt subs. The only risk from a sub is getting lined up for a torp attack by the sub, dumb firing their homing torpedo's. But once again, that requires YOU to screw up by not trying to stay parallel to the sub as much as possible. Like, the 1,5 - 2,5km zone with the sub lining you up is the killzone for the DD. Approach from a different angle and you should be fine. Or just stay at 3-5km and gun him down. 

 

So - early to mid game they are untouchable for DDs. During that time, the DDs have to fight other ships, odds are that they have lost health, and all the time the sub moves on into your spawn and torps your BBs, cruisers and CV's to hell. Unless, of course, your DDs decide to hide behind the cruisers. Mind you, the submarine outdetects the vast majority of DDs.

 

HOW can I stay parallel when I have NO clue as to where the sub is, or in what direction he is moving? And the homing torps only not-homing less than  240 -120 meters from your ship is a f-ing joke, for multiple reasons. The 1,5 - 2,5k being the kill-zone for the DD? Laughable. Not for the depth charges (with one or two exceptions), and the gun damage DDs do is laughable (especially since as a DD you are moving around, and still might have to worry about incoming fire). Most DDs do NOT have hydro, and those that do will most likely have used up most if not all of the hydro charges.

 

 

8 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

Then cruisers. A little bit of a mixed bag. Heavy and large cruisers will be struggling to close the distance, and you really should be asking yourself if you really want to do that in the first place. Especially since you are NOT manoevrable, with the sub likely to even your turning circle or straight up outturning you. But you DO have (at least many have) hydro, and some cruisers have radar. On top of that, many heavy and large cruisers have air strike depth charges. So this tells you alot about how heavy and large cruisers are supposed to combat subs. Stay at medium range and let your tools do the work for you while you use your depth charges and guns to strike the sub. Light cruisers can be a little bit more agressive, as their manoevrability is on par with the sub and can nuke the sub very quicky when hard spotted with quick reloading guns. You do want to check for any BBs in the near vicinity first though.

 

You HAVE to charge in a cruiser, our you will be ping- and torp-spammed to death by the enemy submarine since that sub has the speed to more or less keep up with you. And some of them actually have to charge if they want to use depth charges.

 

 

8 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

 

CV's can't detect subs? So subs can counter CVs? Great!

 

Yup - another make it easy on subs to for you. Where the rest of the class actually has to worry about CVs.

[Dutchy_2019]

6 hours ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

I see. 

I don't know if this helps, but I've just searched for the distance homing is turned off: 

 

 

So it could very well be possible that the sub had locked a double ping on you? Not sure, as I couldn't make it up from the screenshots. In that case, homing only stopped at 360m away from you, which is really close indeed. Being double pinged in a heavy cruiser is almost impossible to dodge, as I can recall from my own experience.

 

Personally when I'm pinged and I know torpedo's are incoming, I try to sail in a predictable course, maintaining constant speed while being somewhere between 30-45 degrees angled to the incoming torpedo's. Then when I suspect homing is going to be switched off, I drop all speed (slam brakes) and turn in hard. Or turn out, depending the direction the torpedo's were fired from obviously. I don't know if this helps you, but I hope it does!

 

 

And all the time while you are forced to do that in your cruiser (and  you are most likely being spotted by the submarine) - nice straight line sailing at a predictable speed, you have to pray you will NOT get nuked by incoming BB salvo's. 

[MixuS]

I wonder if WG has the same bonkers policy on subs as they do on CVs and seemingly other ships too, meaning that they are balanced around having healthy player population. Be unpopular -> buffs, be too popular -> nerfs. That is like the stupidest balance metric ever imagined.

 

If players don't want to play subs/CVs/<insert any ship> or vise versa too many players want to play subs/CVs/<insert any ship>, that's not a balancing issue, it's a design and matchmaker issue. Sure, popularity might imply overpoweredness, but buffing a OP class because no one wants to play it sure isn't balancing (and there are examples of WG doing this, like reverting a "bug" that buffed AA to actually workable state).

[ziratulbihac]

Submarines should be removed from the game if every other ship doesn't have 100% capability to destroy 1-3 submarines alone. 

HOW AM I TO FIGHT AN INVISIBLE ENEMY?

How is Bayern or King George V going to defeat x2 Submarines? 

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE and without any common sense or Balance.

 

[De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit]

9 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

As it currently is, the current ping-locator is even more useless than the old ping-trail mechanic. The problem could easily have been solved by just taking away the artifical range cap on the ping locator. As it currrently is, it is an absolyute joke.

 

The problem to me seems to be the visibility for you to notice the effect. At least the effect should be apparent enough to look at the screen and identify the display. Now, I'm not a dev but that seems to be an issue that can be resolved fairly easily if you take feedback into account. The old ping-trail mechanic was probably better at giving the direction of the sub away, but location? Not so sure. Within 8 km you had a rough idea (still think the new mechanic is pinpointing more accurately), outside 8km you had to guess completely. So I'd rather prefer the new mechanic.

 

Quote

The 'that is what testing is for'  argument is getting tiresome: WG has been TESTING this stuff in a life game environment for the past 9 months (arguably actually a year), unleashing it upon the whole player base. To call that "testing" is getting close to Orwellian newspeak, in the same way as this game ifficially has never officially been released (being in version 0.something.something.something). The testing has consistently shown that submarines do NOT fit properly into the Randoms / Co-op / Ranked / CB environment CONSISTENTLY over those 9 months. Very few people have been positive about the way submarines have been implemented. Even the way the "testing" has been done is completely f***ed up, and will artificially hide how OP subs actually are (since submarines can be played by EVERYONE, including players who currently should NEVER hav access to them (especially the T8 and T10 subs).

 

 

I don't think it's ideal to test a new product on the live server, but I'd rather have them tweak subs with incremental improvements each update than butcher the entire class by forcing them into the game. I hold the opinion that, although WG is slow when taking feedback into account (a lot of issues were already raised 1 year ago and were only fixed the last couple of updates, including the upcoming one) subs have been improved significantly. Do they fit into the game? I think they do. Very few people have been positive about sub implementation? First of all: you don't know that. You cannot substantiate your claim. Most people that are critical about subs, like to complain about them. The more vocal playerbase will do so on forums, reddit, discord etc. People who are satisfied with subs and are welcoming them to the game don't really have a reason to do so as well. The playerbase that resides on forums, reddit etc is a very small percentage of the actual playerbase, so while it might look to you a lot of people despise subs: it might actually not be the case. Only WG knows.

 

Are subs OP? Sure, in unicum hands they can be abused. So can any ship in their hands. And potato's will drag sub stats down again. Personally I'm the average WOWS player, perhaps above average player but nowhere near great or unicum. Now this is a great reference point because the vast majority of players are average blokes. My performance in subs roughly equals that of DDs, to give you an idea. A little bit feast or famine, but generally balanced for me. I have bad '0 damage' games as well as amazing ones with 100k+. My average in Salmon is 38k with close to 300 games played. I agree with your argument about new players having the ability to play T8 and T10 subs. I think any player who does not have at least 1 researchable T8 should not be able to play subs of subsequent tier.  

 

Quote

Subs can be hard spotted when on the surface. Then they dive, and hard spotting is gone, without ANY repercussions, they can do this time and again. In a way that NO other ship class can, not even close. And UNLIKE ANY other class, they can move in ANY direction while unspotted, including towards the enemy team, and STAY unspotted.

 

 

The repercussions are there: draining dive time. Now this doesn't look like a huge deal to you, but I can promise you - as a dedicated sub tester - that is actually a pretty big deal. Especially with the limited dive time they already have, so you really have to pick your moments when you want to submerge. Having to crash dive to avoid detection and then stay underwater for a few minutes to get out of range really ruins the day for subs. Subs really want to stay on the surface as long as possible, unless they have no other choice.

 

Quote

So - early to mid game they are untouchable for DDs. During that time, the DDs have to fight other ships, odds are that they have lost health, and all the time the sub moves on into your spawn and torps your BBs, cruisers and CV's to hell. Unless, of course, your DDs decide to hide behind the cruisers. Mind you, the submarine outdetects the vast majority of DDs.

 

Not untouchable. But yes, they are very hard to kill during that stage, especially by DDs. What you do have to keep in mind, it's not like subs don't fight other ships early game as well. Most likely they are on crash course with the other subs, and will meet enemy DDs if they decide to contest caps. The submarine outdetects DDs? In the best scenario, by a few hundred meters. The only way a sub can spot the enemy DD without getting counterspotted in return is with the sub and the DD sailing in the same direction. If that DD comes from the sides - or even worse - during collision course, you will get counterspotted in return as you do not have sufficient time to crash dive without being seen. 

 

Quote

HOW can I stay parallel when I have NO clue as to where the sub is, or in what direction he is moving? And the homing torps only not-homing less than  240 -120 meters from your ship is a f-ing joke, for multiple reasons. The 1,5 - 2,5k being the kill-zone for the DD? Laughable. Not for the depth charges (with one or two exceptions), and the gun damage DDs do is laughable (especially since as a DD you are moving around, and still might have to worry about incoming fire). Most DDs do NOT have hydro, and those that do will most likely have used up most if not all of the hydro charges.

 

 

In many cases, the sub and DD will counterspot each other. In case they don't: I agree with the sub having the advantage here. But then again: the DD will be notified about sub presence if: a) the sub is pinging. b) the sub going down to periscope depth to avoid detection: the DD will now be unspotted again. c) Dumb fired homing torpedo's who are likely to miss because they were fired from 6km away. 

A single ping is relatively easy to dodge for any DD that is not Elbonk, Sherman or the likes. Double ping evasion takes skill and is way harder to do. I agree. What i refered to as the 'killzone': you're not interpreting this correctly. What I meant with the 1,5-2,5km is the danger zone for the DD when the sub has you lined up, not the other way around. Ideal zones for the DD are within 1,5 - preferably parallel to the sub - for a depth charge run, and within 3-5km for gunning the sub down.

Most DDs don't have hydro indeed. Do they need it? Well, it depends I guess. If you instantly want to kill the sub when submerged, then yes. Otherwise you are left with the 'cat and mouse' option. Some people find it boring, because it's the good old waiting game: the sub has to run out of dive capacity. If the sub is full health during late game, it can be boring. Also: the RPF skill can come in handy for chasing subs. DDs have the option to equip it, but it's not actually needed to hunt subs. It's a nice tool though.

 

Quote

 

You HAVE to charge in a cruiser, our you will be ping- and torp-spammed to death by the enemy submarine since that sub has the speed to more or less keep up with you. And some of them actually have to charge if they want to use depth charges.

 

 

Ok so let's assume this is a 1v1 then, because there is no chance in hell I'd push up my cruiser against a sub when the sub has teammates and can freely spam me with torps. Also if the sub is already in kiting position, with his stern pointing towards you: don't even bother and try to go undetected/into cover. Sub in open water, more than 6km away? Don't bother. 

 

What you do want is getting the distance from the sub down as quickly as possible. So use islands to block line of sight as much as possible, then get him in hydro range. Now with the next update: you might wanna just blindfire HE shells at the aproximate location. With some luck, you'll get hits and the sub has a choice of either diving (at which point oil leaks give his location and submerged status away), or staying surfaced/periscope depth while at risk of taking incoming fire.

 

Quote

 

Yup - another make it easy on subs to for you. Where the rest of the class actually has to worry about CVs.

 

But the sub does have to worry about CV's. Not about damage being dealt to you, rather it's about getting spotted. Being spotted is the worst that can happen to you when playing subs. It's what you want to avoid at all costs, to get a succesful ambush attack going. So one way or another, the sub always has to keep an eye on CV's actions, because you getting spotted will give your location away and the CV's teammates can then proceed to deal with you. In a 1v1 however, the advantage is obviously with the sub and I don't mind that at all. Because the CV now has something to be really afraid off. I don't see that as a problem, on the contrary.

[General_Iroh]

So I don't quite understand submarine homing. The WG guide says it doesn't matter when you lock onto a ship with the ping, before or after firing torpedoes, but I tried both, the torpedoes just go straight and don't follow the sonar that is active on an enemy ship at all, I tried it many times and only once it worked so is there some other requirement for them to do so and follow the locked ping other than it needs to be locked and active?

[De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit]

10 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

And all the time while you are forced to do that in your cruiser (and  you are most likely being spotted by the submarine) - nice straight line sailing at a predictable speed, you have to pray you will NOT get nuked by incoming BB salvo's. 

You're not wrong. Though, this scenario isn't inherent to submarines specifically however. More like with torpedo attacks in general. For example: when you're angling towards the BB and DD torps are incoming, you'll take evasive actions. And the BB brain only processes one thing when you turn: 'FOOD'!

[Bland_42]

Another thing is that feature that subs have ereditated from british DD, the possibility to launch all torps in a single line/salvo... fantastic to shotgun to death everyone from ultra-low distance.

Maybe a bit overpowered feature?

Problem is that for similar (not identical obviously) reasons the italian BBs have their SAP nerfed against DD.

So why subs can dev-strike a DD with 4-6 torps of 8k+ damage each, when ita BB can't do that for "balance"?

 

 

 

17 ore fa, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit ha scritto:

So it could very well be possible that the sub had locked a double ping on you? Not sure, as I couldn't make it up from the screenshots. In that case, homing only stopped at 360m away from you, which is really close indeed. Being double pinged in a heavy cruiser is almost impossible to dodge, as I can recall from my own experience.

 

Just checked the replay to be sure and you was right, I have taken a double ping.

While I was running away from a Scharhorst in a storm (so less than 8km spotting).

I could have used the DCP to clear it, but... I didn't. Not sure the reasoning of the moment, maybe I was confident to evade the torps and preserve my DCP for the (near) future.

[lovelacebeer]

1 hour ago, General_Iroh said:

So I don't quite understand submarine homing. The WG guide says it doesn't matter when you lock onto a ship with the ping, before or after firing torpedoes, but I tried both, the torpedoes just go straight and don't follow the sonar that is active on an enemy ship at all, I tried it many times and only once it worked so is there some other requirement for them to do so and follow the locked ping other than it needs to be locked and active?

I have not had that particular experience, I tend to like sending my torps out and once the target is where I want him then I ping so the torps correct their course. 
 

I only ask this as I have done it myself a few times by accident, but you are sure your using the homing torps and not the conventional ones? 

[General_Iroh]

1 minute ago, lovelacebeer said:

I have not had that particular experience, I tend to like sending my torps out and once the target is where I want him then I ping so the torps correct their course. 
 

I only ask this as I have done it myself a few times by accident, but you are sure your using the homing torps and not the conventional ones? 

oooooooh there are two separate kinds of torpedoes on submarines.. god okay that must have been it haha, I thought just press 3 like always and do a ping, thanks

[Dutchy_2019]

42 minutes ago, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

You're not wrong. Though, this scenario isn't inherent to submarines specifically however. More like with torpedo attacks in general. For example: when you're angling towards the BB and DD torps are incoming, you'll take evasive actions. And the BB brain only processes one thing when you turn: 'FOOD'!

 

But the simple fact that the DD torps are a straight line torps, rather than the homing torps makes a MASSIVE difference. For one, you have the option to slow down or speed up, and a short turn is often quite effective. 

[lovelacebeer]

34 minutes ago, General_Iroh said:

oooooooh there are two separate kinds of torpedoes on submarines.. god okay that must have been it haha, I thought just press 3 like always and do a ping, thanks

It’s really easily done, for what it’s worth the conventional torps are very devastating and ideal for super short range ‘shotgun’ attacks. 
 

Homing are ideal for longer range engagements, often make people burn their damage control party. Also they are evil for homing In on enemy DDs that are running away. 

[De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit]

3 hours ago, Dutchy_2019 said:

 

But the simple fact that the DD torps are a straight line torps, rather than the homing torps makes a MASSIVE difference. For one, you have the option to slow down or speed up, and a short turn is often quite effective. 

The way I see it: on the one hand you have a ship that keeps sailing in a straightline, same speed for a decent amount of time BUT angled towards the BB the entire time. Making sure that any BB can reliably hit the target they aim at, but less likely to score citadels. On the other hand you have a ship that briefly has to take a turn, - one way or another - thus giving broadside to a BB for a short moment (unless you find a gap big enough). I mean, neither are really great situations to be in anyway.

[Verdaechtig]

Stop wasting your time here!!!!

No one from WG will ever read it, care about it or consider anything you say here.

Everything is stuffed into 1 thread to be ignored. Look the last like 30-40 PAGES.... You won't find any employee to answer any of whatever you say.

We all know it's a class designed by monkeys and played by monkeys. Just report everyone who plays them and don't spend a single $ until they just remove this nonsense from the game.

[Charles__Vane__]

been torped to death, again, with homing torps. Dodged the first salvo, the next one was hard. Had to deal with a ship...and then the subs comes again.

 

 That is really utterly garbage for non sub players.

And how can I counter them with some submarine grenade I can launch around the ship? Is that a joke?? Subs have homing torps and us, we have rocks we can throw overboard???

 

Give us homing torps against subs

[Captain_Breeze]

Subs suck, truly. No explanation needed, no replay warranted, no example required. They are just plain and simple a cheats mechanic. WG, do one.

[JohnMac79]

23 hours ago, Verdaechtig said:

Just report everyone who plays them

 

 

Already do, i need more reports though.

[Captain_Breeze]

On 5/15/2022 at 5:18 PM, De_Zeeuwse_Admiraliteit said:

You're not wrong. Though, this scenario isn't inherent to submarines specifically however. More like with torpedo attacks in general. For example: when you're angling towards the BB and DD torps are incoming, you'll take evasive actions. And the BB brain only processes one thing when you turn: 'FOOD'!

On WG payroll are you? 

[Submerged_Hitman]

Report everyone who plays them??   For what reason???  I get reported every game I play them but already spoke to WG and unless im swearing in chat (which I dont) or afk (which happens incredibly rarely)  its pointless! (except to prove the reporting sytem is abused I mean reporting someone for playing a ship type you dont like, how pathetic!)   WG check so all reporting does is make you feel better it has no affect on the sub player WHATSOEVER.     After 600 games in the Balao im 62% WR and if a team actively works to focus me then I dont do as well, ppl need to learn the mechanics of how they play to counter them, it IS possible and people are getting better at it lately.  Subs are here to stay so moaning about a ship you dont understand (and isnt even finished yet) is a waste of time you may as well spend that time learning counters, and before the same old people say you cant, you CAN!  I play them almost exclusively now and some people have figured it out ... some havent and will just moan and report serving zero purpose whatsoever

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

19 minutes ago, TDRHitmanDan said:

you may as well spend that time learning counters, and before the same old people say you cant, you CAN!  I play them almost exclusively now and some people have figured it out ... some havent and will just moan and report serving zero purpose whatsoever

[JohnMac79]

25 minutes ago, TDRHitmanDan said:

Report everyone who plays them??   For what reason???

 

For all the reasons already given in this thread. They ruin the game for everyone else and they are broken.

 

25 minutes ago, TDRHitmanDan said:

I get reported every game I play them but already spoke to WG...

 

WG plz stop the reports i dont care about...

 

25 minutes ago, TDRHitmanDan said:

 WG check so all reporting does is make you feel better it has no affect on the sub player WHATSOEVER.

 

So why are you upset?

 

25 minutes ago, TDRHitmanDan said:

ppl need to learn the mechanics of how they play to counter them, it IS possible and people are getting better at it lately.

 

Lies.

 

25 minutes ago, TDRHitmanDan said:

Subs are here to stay so moaning about a ship you dont understand (and isnt even finished yet) is a waste of time you may as well spend that time learning counters

 

There are no counters. CV are still broken after years (and arguably still not finished), if there is a legit reason to complain people will complain.

 

25 minutes ago, TDRHitmanDan said:

I play them almost exclusively now

 

Case closed.