Jump to content
You need to play a total of 1 battles to post in this section.
The_EURL_Guy

Submarine Testing

218 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Players
117 posts
18,069 battles

I strongly believe that WG staff are in actual fact - illiterate.

There can't be any other explanation for them ignoring 95% of what playerbase writes.

Subs are same as CVs, just rubbing the vast majority of people the wrong way.

It seems that real issue is that their ego is not being able to accept that they don't know how to balance the game, so they put out a "smokescreen" - more broken premiums, ship lines that make no sense, CVs, RB, subs... you name it.

I think that their problem is actually very small...

...and it's hidden in their pants.

 

I dare WG to make 2 game modes.

1. only standard surface ships

2. all the surface ships plus CVs, subs and the kitchen sinks (to be released in 2021)

Would be interesting to see how many people apart from CV and sub fans would play mode 2. My guess is that such mode would be heavily populated by bots.

My 2 cents

  • Cool 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[BHSFL]
Players
663 posts
4 hours ago, Catslave said:

What made them harder to play ? the fact that you can now hit your victim anywhere with the ping instead of stern/nose ? Or the fact that you regenerate energy at full speed while submersed ?

 

The fact they are detected by having to start their targeting system, imagine if DD were automatic spotted if they pressed 3 ... and then they added anti sub weapons to most ship classes, AOE anti-sub weapons.

 

 

Quote

Afaik early unguided torpedoes had no heading to set ... you aimed, set the depth and fired...having the torpedo magically turn by any noteworthy degree after firing was wishful thinking.

 

Except we arent talking about "early" torpedoes now are we? Tier VI are the Type VIIC, Cachalot and a soviet from roughly the same time period and even the predecessor of the infamous Mk 14, the Mk 10 had a gyroscope guidance system as well the G7a, this isnt "wishful thinking" and Germany had the G7es in 1943 that were passive acoustic torpedoes and I was even surprised they actually developed wired guided torpedoes, the G7ef NYK but those were for coastal batteries even if a version for midget submarines was created, it never entered service.

 

But lets go to WW I then ...

 

http://www.tvre.org/en/gyro-angled-torpedoes

 

Yes, I know the torpedoes in WOWS lack gyros and so limit their firing angles but the fact is, historically they existed when WWI broke out

 

Quote

Also acoustic homing torpedoes existed. Both the 3rd Reich and the USA developed and actually deployed them (with varying success). And while the german torpedoes saw relatively little use, the USA used quite a few. But both torpedoes being relatively new during the war and therefore prone to all kinds of failures.... (like hitting the ship they were launched from...).

 

What?

 

The G7es as I pointed out was introduced in 1943, they were first used against Convoy ONS 18/ON 202 were they sunk 6 merchant ships and 3 escorts, over the war over 700 were fired and sunk 77 ships over the war and this was with noise makers quickly being introduced.

 

The USN introduced the Mark 27 in the same year however, they were simply submarine versions of the Mk 24 "mine" (FIDO) that was a airdropped ASW  torpedo, they were also VERY slow (12 knots vs 24  knots of the G7es) and were mostly used by submarines to give escort ships something else to think about as the submarine escaped, for better and for worst the main submarine torpedo of the USN during WWII was the infamous Mk 14 that wasnt a acoustic torpedo, The USN continued development (well Westinghouse Electric did) of acoustic torpedoes and the MK 29 was the first to break the 20 knots but the program was discontinued in 1945 , even the post-war Mark 34 did not reach 20 knots.

 

Quote

This is what ? 4th ? 5th ? 6th ?... beta test including 1 on the live servers. Considering the state of subs after ~6months of testing i wouldn't get my hopes up.... if anything they shape up to be carrier 2.0. The ping mechanic gets dumbed down as much as possible and the sub is allowed to stay submerged all game, where it is near impossible to spot.

 

How about the 3rd counting the one on the live server? of course there were closed tests before it was up in the PT.

 

Quote

great idea ... not.

 


Issue here is, that >4km range the DD can't damage the submarine ... nor can anyone else because Depth Charges don't have 5km range and shells and torpedoes cant hit a submerged submarine. It also assumes that the DD has the liberty to turn around and stay away. So what does the DD do against a submarine in the middle of a cap ?

You basically said the the supposed prime submarine hunter should stay away from the submarine....

 

 

First, torpedoes have a 1km arming range so any ship within 1km of a sub is entirely safe from it.

 

Second, submarines cannot cap unless on the surface and DDs can easily close the gap and DC the sub that have exactly two choices, dive and run or stay and try to fight and that is not a fight its going to go well for the sub because submarine torpedoes are neither fast or maneuverable (I dodged guided ones in a QE in PT), WG made sure they pay for their so called "ability to citadel" (or the cynic in me says, make sure there are Premium submarines with specific anti-DD weapons down the line).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NEXT]
Players
6,418 posts
12,354 battles
2 hours ago, WWDragon said:
Quote

Also acoustic homing torpedoes existed. Both the 3rd Reich and the USA developed and actually deployed them (with varying success). And while the german torpedoes saw relatively little use, the USA used quite a few. But both torpedoes being relatively new during the war and therefore prone to all kinds of failures.... (like hitting the ship they were launched from...).

 

What?

 

The G7es as I pointed out was introduced in 1943, they were first used against Convoy ONS 18/ON 202 were they sunk 6 merchant ships and 3 escorts, over the war over 700 were fired and sunk 77 ships over the war and this was with noise makers quickly being introduced.

 

The USN introduced the Mark 27 in the same year however, they were simply submarine versions of the Mk 24 "mine" (FIDO) that was a airdropped ASW  torpedo, they were also VERY slow (12 knots vs 24  knots of the G7es) and were mostly used by submarines to give escort ships something else to think about as the submarine escaped, for better and for worst the main submarine torpedo of the USN during WWII was the infamous Mk 14 that wasnt a acoustic torpedo, The USN continued development (well Westinghouse Electric did) o

I actually don't understand, why it is important if they were good or bad, often or rarely used. We have ships like Kremlin - how good was she in ww2? Or even better: How good was the Graf Zeppelin? ^^

For this game it doesn't matter much, I'm fine with the game mechanic. Though I want periscop depth and deck guns

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NWP]
Players
3,831 posts
18,027 battles
13 hours ago, YabbaCoe said:

Another huge problem was the depth, were in 6.1m submarine was immune to HE shells. Now, you can damage Submarine with HE shells, rockets or bombs in depth of 10m.

The issue was never: I can't hit at 6,1m. The issue is: SUB sits at 5,9 m, he sees guns going his way and drops to 6,1 m.

Now this is dropped to 10. So I guess if periscope depth is left at 6 this might resolve the issue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[CATS]
Players
31,641 posts
15,879 battles
6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

Not the Best at Math are we ?

Caps are in the Middle between the Teams.

So if the 2 Fleets BBs are 20km away from each other. Guess what. Both of them are 10km away from the Capture Point.

 

Or you gonna Tell me that you tend to be 15km away from the Caps and Fight enemy BBs at 30km Range ?

 

 

2.

Yes. In Fact all DDs get Hydrophones that can Locate Submarines up to 7km away.

They said that in the Article and also the Video if you missed it.

By the way. All other Ships also get Hydro. But shorter Range of only 3-5km to Locate Subs.

1. I am not talking about me. I am talking about teammates.

2. That is not what we call Hydro on the Forum. 

  • Cool 1
  • Bad 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[3DKM]
Players
279 posts
2,923 battles
Oh boy. This nightmare continues and just wont stop...
 
Im still very afraid that this will completely kill the random mode...i just dont like the sub mechanic at all, it is hard to balance, it makes games very booring for most surface ships (less to shoot), and it doesnt even feel good to fight those subs as a surface ship. You can hit one  booring button (looks like a scrapped CV ability..) and either you hit it or you have to run the whole game.
 
Also we already have way too much torpedos flying around in high tiers, now even more (World of Torpedos as a new meta?) ?! As a BB, you have one more reason to camp in the back. DDs are the best defensive option against subs but they already having way too much duties to do and bad players will be incredibly overwhelmed, therefore one sided steam rolls will be more often.
 
Honestly i stopped investing money into the game because of the sub mechanic since the future and quality of WoWs is very unsure right now..  I even might stop playing completely. It is frustrating and wrong that WG FORCES everyone to face this new mechanic/meta instead of putting them into a separate game mode, so people HAVE A CHOICE. They already made one big mistake with the forced implementation of the CVs (which are still unbalanced), they wont survive another one. One can only pray at this point...
 
Long story short: subs do not fit into a game that is purely made for SURFACE action. WG developed this game for only surface combat, they didnt even want subs to be part of their game in the first place(for many good reason). Now.. they force them into the game to make a big load of cash in short time, NOT to make the gameplay more fun. But on the long run they will hurt the quality of the game very much. In my opinion this game can only survive if they put them into a separate game mode to give players a choice this time.

 

 
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[3DKM]
Players
279 posts
2,923 battles
Vor 14 Stunden, clocky sagte:

if you add them in random without any posibility to chose games without them  I am deleting this game and my account.

If they FORCE players once again just like with CVs, i can see myself quitting, too.  Getting forced to play something you dont want to play is the very wrong way. Having a choice is the only way that can work.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
34 posts
10,431 battles

Nurnberg and La Galissoniere are light cruisers, not heavies. What's the rationale behind giving them the plane call-ins instead of depth charges?

Capture.JPG

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[2DQT]
Players
407 posts
3,827 battles
1 hour ago, BraveExpress said:

Nurnberg and La Galissoniere are light cruisers, not heavies. What's the rationale behind giving them the plane call-ins instead of depth charges?

Capture.JPG

Non-split cruiser lines ignore the CA requirement if there is no CA avaiiable ? All in all, they didn't put much effort into the article. Again. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[OCTO]
Players
509 posts
20,900 battles

When the submarine update hits, the game is finished. Submarines and more planes. I thought this game was about surface ships. It has already been proven that anything other than surface ships don't fit into the game as it is designed. And then you add another game breaking class, and more planes......

 

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DUXTR]
Alpha Tester
1,043 posts
16 hours ago, YabbaCoe said:

Well it won't be that easy. You need to hit the ship so the torpedoes start homing, but if there is no line of sight between Sub and highlighted part, torps will stop home. So agile ships can simply turn to break line of sight.

In order to hit the citadel of the ship with homing torpedoes, you need to hit the highlighted part twice. But this won't be easy as again players can maneouvre.

 

Well, players could manouvre in the past too. But not having to aim for 2 separate points as u needed in the past makes it easier to target and lock......looking at BBs and CA/CLs.

Main focus from what I've seen on different vids is the easy farming of the BBs.

Guess which class will be an even more REMF than it is now.

I see so many problems with introducing this class it's not even funny. And most of them boils down to your average playerbase......those that get proximity detected by BBs in their DDs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[PASOK]
Players
5 posts
2,817 battles

Looks good! Several neccesary changes have been made since the last test. I'm a bit iffy on how little there seems to be left for submarines to excel at (can't really hide from anything except planes, can spot at risk to itself but has a hard time doing any damage with hard to aim and easily dodged torpedoes) but I'll wait until I can get my hands on it before passing judgement.

 

EDIT: The negativity in this place is hilarious, though. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WG]
[WG]
WG Staff
7,073 posts
4,554 battles
Před 15 hodinami LoveZeppelin řekl/a:

allowing subs to stay perma submerged, is really, very very silly.

but perma submerged subs will be very popular among those that use 3rd party bots, among serial afkers, among all those that need regular toilet breaks, among griefers, and worse still/

I am especially worried that devs have not thought about the pitfalls, and unintended consuquences which may arise from the latest changes to sub gameplay. This happened once before on a major scale, Spring 2018, a certain CV rework.

3rd party bots are not allowed and from time to time we catch those bot providers and ban them. But still, when you will have AFK submarine, it will require the same procedure, as now with any other surface ship. Just report that and if it is a player, that is "known" for being AFK so many times in short time of period, he will receive bigger punishment for this.

We made several changes and it is not said, that those are the final one. There still can be another tests, if needed. But first, we need to test out, if the submarine and anti-submarine gameplay is doable and if it makes sense. We want all ships to have options to defend themselves against submarines somehow, but also that submarines can actually do something. It is not an easy task, but current changes can help to gather more data, how is the gameplay now.

 

Před 15 hodinami ZeuSueZ1337 řekl/a:

@YabbaCoe Allow me to bump my Steam inquire once more:

 

Is this test only for WG-client player pool or will it be added for those of us on the Steam-client?

I've been through the news article a few times now but fail to see if it's been addressed elsewhere.

Unfortunately Submarine test will be running only on TST server, that is downloadable only in WGC. Steam is also basically a seperate server. Though I don't know much about Steam, so I will try to ask my colleagues, that deals with Steam, if there is a way to access TST through Steam. But honestly, I don't expect positive answer in this regard.

 

Před 15 hodinami Sunleader řekl/a:

Thats Dissappointing.

Whole Range of Critics from me here.

 

1.

Back to Seperate Test Server instead of using a proper distribution System this time.

So it will be Bot Fiesta....

 

2.

Subs lose ALL ability to Sneak up on Enemies.

Not only does everyone get Hydrophones.

But Subs will be Outspotted by most DDs which on top get a Hydrophone lock on them.

 

This will lead to Subs basicly becoming long range Torpedo Turrets that will just sit somewhere Bow in to the Enemy and Spam Torps from below their Allies.

Because they have no way to approach the Enemy anymore as they cannot avoid DDs for which they are Fodder.

 

This is basicly as if you gave all Cruisers the Location Skill and Nerfed DD Concealment so that most Cruisers outspot them....

 

3.

Everyone can Kill Subs even if they are Fully Submerged.

As almost all Cruisers get Hydro. This means all Cruisers can now Spot Subs easily even at deepest Dive level and everyone within 10km can Spam Airstrikes on it.

 

Which means a Sub has to stay away 4-5km from even enemy Heavy Cruisers.

 

4.

Test is still in T6 only which means we only get irrelevant Data as you cannot simulate actual capabilities of a Battle.

 

 

 

You could just as well remove Subs at this point.

I want Subs in the Game.

But not if they basicly become Torp Turrets sitting on some corner without moving...

I fully understand your concerns. See, somebody thinks, that Submarines are OP, broken or other stuff. But clearly those changes will change Submarine gameplay, but also is making their life much more difficult. But we need to test all those changes to know, how exactly they work in bigger scale, so in future we can do some tweaks

 

 

Před 14 hodinami mikecrack177 řekl/a:

 

I would like those planes to be available for light cruisers like the yorck from Germany


and I agree with him

Well, as this whole test is run on tier VI and Nürnberg has those ASW planes, it is more than possible, that in future other German heavy cruisers will have those ASW planes. But this is still an expectation for future.

 

Před 4 minutami SirAmra řekl/a:

Well, players could manouvre in the past too. But not having to aim for 2 separate points as u needed in the past makes it easier to target and lock......looking at BBs and CA/CLs.

Main focus from what I've seen on different vids is the easy farming of the BBs.

Guess which class will be an even more REMF than it is now.

I see so many problems with introducing this class it's not even funny. And most of them boils down to your average playerbase......those that get proximity detected by BBs in their DDs.

Well, it is kinda obvious, that main targets for Submarines will be slow ships, so definitely BBs and if possible some camping ships. Submarine can try fight DD, but it will be really difficult, as DD can really outspot the Submarine, is much faster and have plenty ways how to damage or destroy the Submarine.

So submarine captain really need to chose his/her targets wisely.

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[RDNT]
Players
176 posts
8 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

"(...)so I will try to ask my colleagues, that deals with Steam, if there is a way to access TST through Steam"

Appreciated. Albeit the answer I was expecting.

Thanks regardless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NEXT]
Players
6,418 posts
12,354 battles
Just now, ZeuSueZ1337 said:

Appreciated. Albeit the answer I was expecting.

Thanks regardless.

Actually should be easily possible, the only question is, if they want do it. On the login client you just install another game, technically there are multiple options to offer that.
One is, that Steam allows different versions of a game. The other option would be just to offer a second game, but I think that nots worth the effort

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Players
2,277 posts
23,700 battles

@YabbaCoe Are you planning on going 15v15 in modes where subs are introduced? 

The Maps/Battles (last test 12v12)  felt empty with 3 Subs per side.... 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[WG]
[WG]
WG Staff
7,073 posts
4,554 battles
Před 25 minutami Prophecy82 řekl/a:

@YabbaCoe Are you planning on going 15v15 in modes where subs are introduced? 

The Maps/Battles (last test 12v12)  felt empty with 3 Subs per side.... 

This all is yet to be decided in future. Only after proper testing we would know, if battles needs to be with more players, or how many submarines can be maxium per side. But still we are in testing of the gameplay itself, so this further questions are for the future.

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DUXTR]
Alpha Tester
1,043 posts
51 minutes ago, YabbaCoe said:

Well, it is kinda obvious, that main targets for Submarines will be slow ships, so definitely BBs and if possible some camping ships. Submarine can try fight DD, but it will be really difficult, as DD can really outspot the Submarine, is much faster and have plenty ways how to damage or destroy the Submarine.

So submarine captain really need to chose his/her targets wisely.

Spotting goes both ways. Guess what is more easilly shot at than the other, even being able to outspot.

And u all assume this playerbase will go subhunting. And if u brind the wrong DD into the battle your team is kinda screwed.

For this to work u need a competent DD player and a competent team to support the hunter, on top of battling other DDs......yeah.....I'll hardpass on this game when u release subs into PvP.

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NEXT]
Players
6,418 posts
12,354 battles
6 minutes ago, SirAmra said:

Spotting goes both ways. Guess what is more easilly shot at than the other, even being able to outspot.

And u all assume this playerbase will go subhunting. And if u brind the wrong DD into the battle your team is kinda screwed.

For this to work u need a competent DD player and a competent team to support the hunter, on top of battling other DDs......yeah.....I'll hardpass on this game when u release subs into PvP.

 

Yes, spotting works also both ways in case of DD vs BB. But one has an advantage.

 

The DD has passive Hydro range 7 km and also outspots a surfaced Sub. That is an information for the Teams (especially BBs), which counters the Sub totally. Duo the SS speed it will never catch up with the warned BBs.

 

 

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[DUXTR]
Alpha Tester
1,043 posts
16 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, spotting works also both ways in case of DD vs BB. But one has an advantage.

 

The DD has passive Hydro range 7 km and also outspots a surfaced Sub. That is an information for the Teams (especially BBs), which counters the Sub totally. Duo the SS speed it will never catch up with the warned BBs.

 

 

Well, u all assume players will go hunting subs. And u all assume subs will act and play logically.

How quickly do u think subs will ignore contesting caps and instead flank around while DDs contest caps?

I quickly pointed out in the first test of subs that contesting caps until late game makes no sense for a sub.

And if there is fewer DDs there will be fewer hunters.

And experiencing how players in this game plays, I have absolutely no hope of balancing this class into the game.

For good or worse. Either it's dumbed down so much that everyone can have a field day in it, or it is to difficult and they stop playing it.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NEXT]
Players
6,418 posts
12,354 battles
10 minutes ago, SirAmra said:

Well, u all assume players will go hunting subs. And u all assume subs will act and play logically.

How quickly do u think subs will ignore contesting caps and instead flank around while DDs contest caps?

I quickly pointed out in the first test of subs that contesting caps until late game makes no sense for a sub.

And if there is fewer DDs there will be fewer hunters.

And experiencing how players in this game plays, I have absolutely no hope of balancing this class into the game.

For good or worse. Either it's dumbed down so much that everyone can have a field day in it, or it is to difficult and they stop playing it.

At beginning people will fail more then later, that's obvious. But then, if player don't play for the win has noting to do with Subs or any ship. There are People, who go with secondary build and think they have to melee brawl in the first minutes. There are people who chase a CV as a DD. There are people, who went full aggressive in a cruiser.

The issue are the people, not the vessel.

Balance is also a quite pointless term, since there is no way for "Balance" since ships are too different. Even without CV or SS:

Where is a DD balanced in a BB/Cruiser game? The only counter is another DD. Or a radar, though that is predictable by a good DD player. So the counter against DD is a DD. That's also not really balanced, Ships are uneven.

 

I expect, that I won't  have issues against SS in a DD as general case. Sometimes it might be unlucky, but this game has unlucky moments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[3DKM]
Players
279 posts
2,923 battles

Somehow the new mechanics seems off in my opinion: as a BB you click one button and all of a sudden one or two planes arrive out of NOWHERE (not even from the ship itself) in the middle of an ocean to drop bombs (and magically disappear afterwards)?! This lacks any logic or some type of realism (even in an arcade game). This is breaking the atmosphere, at least for me.

 

More important:

Gameplay wise this feels greatly underwhelming and booring to play. Actually i like the game because it feels to some extent quite realistic to drive and manage every mechanic of a warship as its captain, now we have to call some sad and bored World of Warplanes players to help out sinking a submarine real quick..... This is the most booring mechanic ive ever seen, which only shows how interrupting and atmosphere damaging the new class submarine is to the game... IT does not feel right or make fun at all. It feels more like a task that you DONT LIKE BUT YOU HAVE TO DO.

 

Again, this game is made and designed for SURFACE COMBAT only. There were three classes that counter each other: BB counters CA/CL, CA/CL counters DD, DD counters BB - this systems worked just perfectly. The implementation of the CVs damaged the balance since CVs cant be really countered (until very very late game in very small cases) and interacted with as a surface ship. That is the reason why CVs still feel like a forced failure in terms of game designs. Now, with another class, that is not a surface ship (most of its time), the whole balance will be even more off. Most of the time you cant really interact with the submarines as a surface ship - ONE defensive ability is all you have, just like pushing a button for AA. How is this supposed to be fun and engaging? How is this supposed to be an addition to the game? It just makes everything even harder and more problematic in terms of balancing. It feels like an OBSTACLE that you have to overcome to have fun in the game. Heck, there is a big part of the playerbase that dont even want the class to be in the game...

 

In my opinion, this is a prime example of how a developer's greed can ruin a kinda good functioning gameplay completely. I wish they would fix the current problems and the CV mechanic before they even continue testing subs....but hey, it is WG that is trying everything to force that failure by design (which is called submarines) down our throats.

 

I am very disappointed and wont put anymore money into this game.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[NEXT]
Players
6,418 posts
12,354 battles
25 minutes ago, TunaRoll said:

two planes arrive out of NOWHERE

This is an Arcade game, not a Simulation, where planes would start from an Airport and travel 30 Minutes to the final destination... Ships appear and disappear also "magically", why not planes? Really don't understand that

  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[EIRE]
Players
46 posts
12,193 battles

i thought they gave up on subs, now there coming back, this will be end of game for me, seriously will not play with subs, cvs, stealth radar. subs will destroy the game unless separate battle mode to play with or without subs

  • Cool 2
  • Bad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×