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The_EURL_Guy

Submarine Testing

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WG, you mean well by letting us try the new machanics, but I will not install a third instance of your game (after live and PTS). So...

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1 hour ago, WWDragon said:

 

The whole DD must cap is the number one reason why DD get killed, they shouldnt ... going to cap makes then predictable and thats not even going about when there is no cap to begin with, I almost think when there is no cap the DD player simply crawls into a ball and start screaming "NO CAP! NO CAP!".

 

Feel free to ignore the caps.

But when you leave central parts of the map to the enemy, your team is at a disadvantage.

And after 10 minutes of ignoring the cap, the score can make your teammates nervous and have them do stupid mistakes (or even give up).

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

And then? The submarine can't cap submerged, nor it is any maneuverable. The DD has 7km passive Hydro and will know about the submarine. The DD outspots him on surface.

The DD will be in advantage, that doesn'T mean that the DD can play brainless because "I'm a counter, I can ignore everything then".

 

As I said earlier, the DD decides everything.

At 7 km the DD gets awareness of the submarine.

-> Approach, when it's save, using islands etc

-> Not safe, stay on 4+ km.

 

The Submarine can do nothing against. It's slow and has limited view. So when a submarine wins over a DD then it's only because the DD was bad or just bad luck. That can always happen. But in general the DD is superior

 

For the case "Submarine just deep dives against DCs, while team shots him." Yes, there is a team then behind. Then don't approach, if a DD can't survive that. As I said, is the same like with a radar cruiser. You can play a radar cruiser and move straight otwards the dd and radar him. Then the Radar cruiser might die with a few salvos. If a DD plays against a SS that dumb, yes, he will lose :D

 

A 1v1 can always happen with any ship type. In this case the DD will be more likely win.

The cap zone tells the sub if the DD is near or not. The sub has also the option to use his advanced position to torp the enemy (depending on Tier).

The DD cannot push the sub out of capzones without getting spotted, which limits his options.

 

An 1v1 only happens at the end of a match or at least one player messes up.

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I would like those planes to be available for light cruisers like the yorck from Germany

4 horas antes, Pikkozoikum dijo:

Those Anti-Submarine planes look cool

 

Though no deck guns and not real destinction of periscope cope depth and thus no real use of it? I might read the text closer *doing that now*

 

I mean for me, everything what we got so far looks nice, but Deck guns and useful periscop depths are missing imo

and I agree with him
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17 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Feel free to ignore the caps.

But when you leave central parts of the map to the enemy, your team is at a disadvantage.

And after 10 minutes of ignoring the cap, the score can make your teammates nervous and have them do stupid mistakes (or even give up).

The cap zone tells the sub if the DD is near or not. The sub has also the option to use his advanced position to torp the enemy (depending on Tier).

The DD cannot push the sub out of capzones without getting spotted, which limits his options.

 

An 1v1 only happens at the end of a match or at least one player messes up.

 

Wrong.

DD gets the Subs rough Position 7km away.

And Spots it at 4.5km.

Sub will merely know something is in Cap and wont Spot the DD before its 4km away at which points itself is spotted.

 

And with the new 10m HE rules.

The Sub cannot afford to even try to come up.

But it cant sit Submerged in cap either.

Cause any BB or CA within 10km can start calling Airstrikes on the Cap.

 

Meaning the Sub will be Forced out of the Cap with 0 chance of even fighting back because the DD Outspots AND Outguns it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Feel free to ignore the caps.

But when you leave central parts of the map to the enemy, your team is at a disadvantage.

And after 10 minutes of ignoring the cap, the score can make your teammates nervous and have them do stupid mistakes (or even give up).

The cap zone tells the sub if the DD is near or not. The sub has also the option to use his advanced position to torp the enemy (depending on Tier).

The DD cannot push the sub out of capzones without getting spotted, which limits his options.

 

An 1v1 only happens at the end of a match or at least one player messes up.

The sub is hydroed by a DD, so the whole team knows the position of the Sub and the Sub becomes useless. The Sub has limited ranges, and the position will be known dup the DD hydro-spotting, thus the Sub in the Cap is useless, while the DD keeps prodviding the spotting.

If the SS goes aggressive, the DD will punish it.

 

So the SS will be countered, since he can't do anything other than keeping a DD out of a cap. While the DD keeps a SS away from BBs and still spots other team mates and can torp those with long range torps.

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5 hours ago, NobleSauvage said:

I thought the reason for subs going into the live game client previously was because separate test servers were not deemed to be of use with them. Is that no longer the case?

I think WG realised quite how much ship grinding, completely unrelated to Sub Testing, was going on in those modes. I went through all four Tier VI CVs. So a PTS iteration makes some sense. 

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1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

Wrong.

DD gets the Subs rough Position 7km away.

And Spots it at 4.5km.

Sub will merely know something is in Cap and wont Spot the DD before its 4km away at which points itself is spotted.

 

And with the new 10m HE rules.

The Sub cannot afford to even try to come up.

But it cant sit Submerged in cap either.

Cause any BB or CA within 10km can start calling Airstrikes on the Cap.

 

Meaning the Sub will be Forced out of the Cap with 0 chance of even fighting back because the DD Outspots AND Outguns it.

Where are these magical BB, 10km away from the far side of the cap?

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The sub is hydroed by a DD, so the whole team knows the position of the Sub and the Sub becomes useless. The Sub has limited ranges, and the position will be known dup the DD hydro-spotting, thus the Sub in the Cap is useless, while the DD keeps prodviding the spotting.

If the SS goes aggressive, the DD will punish it.

 

So the SS will be countered, since he can't do anything other than keeping a DD out of a cap. While the DD keeps a SS away from BBs and still spots other team mates and can torp those with long range torps.

Sure. All DD have hydro... :Smile_amazed:

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2 hours ago, mikecrack177 said:

 

I would like those planes to be available for light cruisers like the yorck from Germany

 

Yorck is a heavy cruiser.

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6 hours ago, WWDragon said:

I have to comment that my issues with submarines wasnt addressed and they just made then harder to play, in the live server test they seem to be utterly useless because of obtuse UI were the player spends more time trying to get a shoot in that anything else.

 

Someone at WG is deadset in a mechanic that simply doesnt work, pinging is a obtuse and annoying mechanic that in order to force the player to use it forces incredible tiny firing angles on torpedo tubes when in reality torpedoes had wide angles because they (torpedoes) were set to steer into a heading after being launched.

 

As long those wire-guided torpedoes exist I have absolutely no interest in submarines, not because they are broken but because they are unhistorical bullcrap and not because of "balance" reasons but because some developer at WG decided in this gameplay design that simply put, in my opinion is crap.

What made them harder to play ? the fact that you can now hit your victim anywhere with the ping instead of stern/nose ? Or the fact that you regenerate energy at full speed while submersed ?

 

Afaik early unguided torpedoes had no heading to set ... you aimed, set the depth and fired...having the torpedo magically turn by any noteworthy degree after firing was wishful thinking.

 

Also acoustic homing torpedoes existed. Both the 3rd Reich and the USA developed and actually deployed them (with varying success). And while the german torpedoes saw relatively little use, the USA used quite a few. But both torpedoes being relatively new during the war and therefore prone to all kinds of failures.... (like hitting the ship they were launched from...).

5 hours ago, firerider202 said:

 this is only another beta test.

This is what ? 4th ? 5th ? 6th ?... beta test including 1 on the live servers. Considering the state of subs after ~6months of testing i wouldn't get my hopes up.... if anything they shape up to be carrier 2.0. The ping mechanic gets dumbed down as much as possible and the sub is allowed to stay submerged all game, where it is near impossible to spot.

 

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So the DD goes not closer than 4 km, if he can't manage the spotting state. SS are not known for being high speed boats, epsecially submerged

great idea ... not.

Issue here is, that >4km range the DD can't damage the submarine ... nor can anyone else because Depth Charges don't have 5km range and shells and torpedoes cant hit a submerged submarine. It also assumes that the DD has the liberty to turn around and stay away. So what does the DD do against a submarine in the middle of a cap ?

You basically said the the supposed prime submarine hunter should stay away from the submarine....

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44 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Sure. All DD have hydro...

Yes, all ships have a passive Hydro. DDs have a 7km passive Hydro

 

7 minutes ago, Catslave said:

great idea ... not.

Issue here is, that >4km range the DD can't damage the submarine ... nor can anyone else because Depth Charges don't have 5km range and shells and torpedoes cant hit a submerged submarine. It also assumes that the DD has the liberty to turn around and stay away. So what does the DD do against a submarine in the middle of a cap ?

You basically said the the supposed prime submarine hunter should stay away from the submarine....

1. Why should anyone be able to kill a Submarine on range without any issues?

2. A DD has way more maneuverbility then a submerged submarine. A DD can locate a submarine on 7 km range. So why should any DD be surprised about a DD?

3. When a DD is inside a cap, why should that be a superior position for a DD just because he is a counter to a SS? A DD is not a counter to an enemy Team.

WHat if a 3 Man Team works against the sub? DD smokes, and heavy cruisers drops ASW on the Sub outside of the Smoke or over an island.

 

A SS has

-slow speed

-low Attack ranges

-low view range

-can't cap submerged

 

A DD is

-fast

-good concealment

-outspots with new passive Hydro a SS on 7km and gives location to the team.

 

So a DD doesn't have to kill the sub to counter the SS. Because a SS needs th surprise moment, otherwise every BB will just move away from the SS. The DD gives these important information and no SS can go for any ship . The SS won't reach any enemy  and can't see a DD.


I really don't see, why DDs are victims to SS, only because a DD can't chase brainless a SS

 

 

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So I just watched the vid, and I gotta say this iteration is better than previous versions. I still think there should be a clearer divide between the roles of various surface and submerged states. Make each depth really feel like a unique stance for the submarine and the key to success should take the proper stance according to the situation. Much like how other classes require the proper use of consumables and abilities, such as how Battleships need to learn how their armour scheme works, how DD's need to learn their torpedoes are best utilised, etc. I imagine something like this:

 

Surfaced

++ Speed

+ Firepower

- Stealth

-- Survivability

 

Surfaced subs get to recharge their batteries so fast they can ping like they're actually playing pong. On top of that, they get the best speed on the surface, much like how in real life they would travel to places fast. the downside is obviously, how obvious they are. With the armour of a coke-can they are prime targets for everything, and pinging reveals their location. Most of this is already implemented in game.

 

Periscope

++ Firepower

+ Stealth

- Survivability

-- Speed

 

Periscope depth offers better stealth but more importantly it should be the only mode that offers a guidance track for torpedoes. When played well the player should be able to land unguided torpedo hits out of the blue, although these hits do not ignore protection - they can still ping in this mode should they choose to do so of course, and this close to the surface the battery will still recharge slowly. Enough to allow for several sonar pings a minute, though banging away on active sonar will still drain it quickly. While the water offers some measure of protection, subs at this depth are still vulnerable to ship-borne artillery and aircraft ordinance. This mode is meant to deliver that big ambush alpha strike, but in return it slows the sub down to a crawl. In real life even today subs are extremely limited in their speed at periscope depth simply so they don't rip off the delicate instrument, and in game subs at this depth should be limited to a quarter speed at best.

 

Fully submerged

++ Stealth

+ Survivability

- Speed

-- Firepower

 

When hidden in the ocean depths, the sub is almost impossible to find. She can still give her position away with active sonar, but that should be a very deliberate decision on the part of her captain. Careful use of hydrophones let the sub pick out what's going on at the surface, call it half the normal detection ranges. As a nod to gameplay, subs should be able to somewhat move around, way faster than they could historically, but still slowly. Due to the 3D environment it is much harder to land pings, and the battery slowly drains to nothing even if she sits still. Trying to attack down here should be a very risky and awkward proposition. While sub versus sub engagements are possible, they are cumbersome - the best weapon versus another sub should be another surface vessel. A subs own torpedoes should be a last minute resort. This is actually how it mostly is in game already, were it not for the frankly somewhat silly recharging battery. To give a ballpark for duration, a sub that does nothing but stay submerged, so that means no pings at all, should I think be able to do so for about a quarter of a match - pings and violent maneuvers should drain more power, staying on the surface should recharge it.

 

/2cts

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5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, all ships have a passive Hydro. DDs have a 7km passive Hydro

Then say passive Hydro, not just Hydro.

The Hydrophone does not spot you and is not an immediate problem for Subs.

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8 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Then say passive Hydro, not just Hydro.

The Hydrophone does not spot you and is not an immediate problem for Subs.

Should be clear out of the context, that I talk about DDs and not german DDs or specific Prems. I also didn't said "Active Hydro" or "consumable Hydro". :P

Nevertheless, it should be clrear now.

 

 

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First test server , submarines were ultra strong, now they are ultra weak.

 

Everybody can spot them, underwater or on the surface, everybody have ultra great anti submarine weapons, even HE shells hit 10 meters underwater??

 

Not only that is hard to hit a ship twice on the same spot (considering that enemy ship knows where you have aim them), you will probably have to waste a LOT of time to get in good positions on the map to make a diffrence. Also there is a question what happens when they stay last alive in the game. Its going to be round around the map to finish the game.

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4 hours ago, Johnny_Moneto said:

WG, you mean well by letting us try the new machanics, but I will not install a third instance of your game (after live and PTS). So...

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32 GB , that is too much also for me

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these Torps look like a start to guided Weaponry. 

 

So - why not Anti-Ship- missiles ? There were surely somewere plans to something like this. 

A submerged A4-missile against ships . And planes with guided torps.

 

And why not get the ships missiles ? maybe only gold ships or gold ammo ! And guided AS missiles for the CV !

 

Or can we get guided grenades for the BB ?   Or maybe nuclear grenades  and nuclear torps and nuclear bombs - this would be much more fannier - such a great explosion !

 

For my feeling the game left the ghost of WOW with the level VIII for CV - so why not complete ? I'm not sure, whether this would be a loss !

 

And the sub is one more nail to the grave.

 

Or you can do it in a special level - mybe with this CV, so that I can select without both !

And maybe add the old CV before 8 again to my level !

 

And without radar, guided, torps/missiles and subs !

 

Happy Game !

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Oh well, it seems the end is nigh for me. Not going to complain or whine, just going to not play again once this massive mistake comes to the live server. Had 5 ok-ish years and that is fair enough. Be nice to get an idea of when they will be implemented as early as possible so i can not involve myself in any events just before.....hate wasting my time.

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8 minutes ago, ooops_hoppla said:

And the sub is one more nail to the grave.

But it seems it takes a lot nails, so we can keep playing for a few more years :3

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6 hours ago, YabbaCoe said:

That is not true, that the are no changes for main problems, that were highlighted in last season. Mostly players wanted ASW for other ship types, even those planes were often mentioned. So we implemented them.

You can still recharge battery underwater, but only up to 30%, while if you are under 20% the width of the sonar ping will be more narrow. This will make really difficult to actually hit something for submarine, that decide to stay underwater for long time.

Another huge problem was the depth, were in 6.1m submarine was immune to HE shells. Now, you can damage Submarine with HE shells, rockets or bombs in depth of 10m.

Spotting of the submarine also changed, so DDs should have more advantage in fight against Submarines, especially with extended hydrophone.

 

There are much more ways how to fight Submarine. Also as was said here, that last time Submarine was able to hunt down last three remaining BBs, well submerged submarine is slower then slowest BB, so if you know approximately where the submarine is, you can simply run away...

:cap_wander::cap_wander_2::cap_fainting:

 

"Once more unto the breach, dear players, once more; Or close your purse with your surface ships useless"

 

5 hours ago, LoveZeppelin said:

I am especially worried that devs have not thought about the pitfalls, and unintended consuquences which may arise from the latest changes to sub gameplay. This happened once before on a major scale, Spring 2018, a certain CV rework.

Seeing the answer of @YabbaCoe shows that WG still has not the faintest clue what some changes they bring to game do to the game play.

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2 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Where are these magical BB, 10km away from the far side of the cap?

Sure. All DD have hydro... :Smile_amazed:

 

1.

Not the Best at Math are we ?

Caps are in the Middle between the Teams.

So if the 2 Fleets BBs are 20km away from each other. Guess what. Both of them are 10km away from the Capture Point.

 

Or you gonna Tell me that you tend to be 15km away from the Caps and Fight enemy BBs at 30km Range ?

 

 

2.

Yes. In Fact all DDs get Hydrophones that can Locate Submarines up to 7km away.

They said that in the Article and also the Video if you missed it.

By the way. All other Ships also get Hydro. But shorter Range of only 3-5km to Locate Subs.

 

 

 

 

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