What's the play on Kurfurst vs. 20km soup

[Itwastuesday]

When I noticed that what hydro does for me is tell "Hm, I see the torps from 4km away that are going to hit me" I just installed rangemod and started kiting. But that sucks. What do you do?

[MrWastee]

kill the source, simple. next? 

 

p.s.: thx, was wondering what to play next. gave me a pick

[Itwastuesday]

Wurst WASD barely does anything, man, and it's such a big target. It's not like I'm fullspeeding sideways somewhere, I know basic battleship gameplay. 

 

I think I know if BB are for me or not, thanks. 

 

And on some maps, yes, there are quite a number of islands, others, not so much.

[Padds01]

brawlers just are not meta, you have to accept a really bad signal to noise ratio if you want to play them.  for some reason they just are not interested in sharing WG insist on only offering the one singe game mode , (i guess choice of is for the decadant capitalist pigs (best jingles impression) and that mode has more and more become in favour of long range camoing and island humping HE vomit. its all in the design from rewards to the balance points its the game they want and they refuse to allow us to play another way.

 

used to be able to get good games by just going down a few tiers, but i see the same lame braindead play at t6 as you do tx now, i can onyl recommend the solution i found, play less, spend nothing.

[Hades_warrior]

Kurfurst is quite fun to play.

Besides Montana the best balanced ship on TX.

[Itwastuesday]

14 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

Kurfurst is quite fun to play.

Besides Montana the best balanced ship on TX.

Perhaps, but I'm looking to improve my performance on her and the biggest issue I seem to have is 2x Halland 2x Shima every game. 

[triumphgt6]

Play with a small team mate who can spot for you so you can destroy the opposition dd with your secondaries!

[MrWastee]

...dd heavy match (forgot to sc), at least 2 dd's on me (halland+gearing) and a yoshino throwing torps from the back.... mine still works

Großer Kurfürst

X

1

100% Super Unicum

3 160 Super Unicum

127 860

2

0

 

on a note: go with ruddershift module if u not do... mine is a full sec build btw, may except for fp instead of the old ifhe build. aft, bft, man secs, all mods for secs and the legendary 1

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

When I noticed that what hydro does for me is tell "Hm, I see the torps from 4km away that are going to hit me" I just installed rangemod and started kiting. But that sucks. What do you do?

 

If you get caught Broadside by Torps then even Hydro will only allow you to mitigate the Damage a bit. Not prevent you from being hit.

Because at this Point you made the Mistake long before the Torpedoes where even Fired.

 

Keep an Eye on the Minimap so you have a Rough Idea where the Enemy DD is and make sure to keep your Ships Angle in a way that you can Dodge Torpedoes from that Direction.

Because when your Ship is already aiming towards or away from the torps a bit. Seeing them 4km away will be Plenty of time to make sure you dont get hit or at least only take one.

[Itwastuesday]

6 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

If you get caught Broadside by Torps then even Hydro will only allow you to mitigate the Damage a bit. Not prevent you from being hit.

Because at this Point you made the Mistake long before the Torpedoes where even Fired.

 

Keep an Eye on the Minimap so you have a Rough Idea where the Enemy DD is and make sure to keep your Ships Angle in a way that you can Dodge Torpedoes from that Direction.

Because when your Ship is already aiming towards or away from the torps a bit. Seeing them 4km away will be Plenty of time to make sure you dont get hit or at least only take one.

Okay, thanks, I suspect there's not much more to it, then. If I knew where the shimakazes are I'd be happy but I can only suspect they're flanking me.

[Sunleader]

Just now, Itwastuesday said:

Okay, thanks, I suspect there's not much more to it, then. If I knew where the shimakazes are I'd be happy but I can only suspect they're flanking me.

 

Well just think about what happens when you Play DD yourself.

 

When you Fire your Torps you got the BB Players which get caught Off Guard and thus take alot of Hits.

And you got the ones which for some reason even tough they cant see you seem to be wary of your direction and never really drive parallel to you for long enough to land a proper torp salvo on them.

 

Just become one of the latter for enemy DDs.

 

 

Torps need a while to reach you after all.

So if you know a DD is in a certain Direction. Dont go driving Broadside to that Direction for any longer than necessary. That alone tends to vastly reduce the number of Times you need to Dodge Torps in General.

But also makes sure you get hit by less Torps if someone managed to predict you and got the Salvo onto your Position.

[Itwastuesday]

Wait, is kiting actually the correct play then, since you can't exactly move around all that much otherwise?

[DFens_666]

18 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Wait, is kiting actually the correct play then, since you can't exactly move around all that much otherwise? 

 

No, pushing is definetely the way to go. But often you need your team to cash in on that, otherwise you will just die without any impact. Winning the push and dying is an acceptable outcome.

If you have to make a move, GK is definetely a good BB to do it. But its not that easy to do correctly, or get the right moment. Ofc there is still games where you dont have to push, and pushing would get you killed, so you kinda have to live with that.

Also taking a torp is not the end of the world, which can always happen even if you run hydro. But Hydro should give enough freedom to make that push happen and not get devstruck by torps.

[Itwastuesday]

Ah, now it starts to sound like the classic MMO game of "do you trust these random people?" :D

[DFens_666]

45 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

Ah, now it starts to sound like the classic MMO game of "do you trust these random people?" :D

 

Yep, story of german BBs. Thats why i think, they work best in divisions. You can create an opening for your team, while you have (atleast) 2 people with you, who can work while you play the punching ball.

The problem is, if you try to have an impact from midrange, any other BB is better. So you basicly have to try to get the strength of them going, which is ofc harder than just letting your guns do the job.

[Datz68]

12 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

Wurst WASD barely does anything, man, and it's such a big target. It's not like I'm fullspeeding sideways somewhere, I know basic battleship gameplay. 

 

I think I know if BB are for me or not, thanks. 

 

And on some maps, yes, there are quite a number of islands, others, not so much.

Try to play a DD like Shimakaze and you will see that is not so easy to hit even big BB with torps... if they use WASD of course

And you have a hydro which will help you to minimize torpedo hits. 

Try to change course/speed more offen, position yourself behind friendly ship  like DD which spots some torps for you 

 

[rimmer_the]

11 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

If you get caught Broadside by Torps then even Hydro will only allow you to mitigate the Damage a bit. Not prevent you from being hit.

Because at this Point you made the Mistake long before the Torpedoes where even Fired.

 

Keep an Eye on the Minimap so you have a Rough Idea where the Enemy DD is and make sure to keep your Ships Angle in a way that you can Dodge Torpedoes from that Direction.

Because when your Ship is already aiming towards or away from the torps a bit. Seeing them 4km away will be Plenty of time to make sure you dont get hit or at least only take one.

Not really a mistake, dd  concealment is such that they do get hits on you, whether it is cyclones, them speed boosting towards you, etc. As they have infinite torps they can just keep trying until they get a hit. 

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

29 minutes ago, Admirality said:

Try to play a DD like Shimakaze and you will see that is not so easy to hit even big BB with torps... if they use WASD of course

And you have a hydro which will help you to minimize torpedo hits. 

Try to change course/speed more offen, position yourself behind friendly ship  like DD which spots some torps for you 

wasd helps, but not when you spot

wasd using means the lead the game tells you doesnt apply

but like hell GKs turn rate lets you change how many torps hit you when you spot them even with hydro

you need to wasd pre-emptively, not responsively, because responsively even with hydro doesnt work  

[BlackYeti]

13 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

Use WASD more, then Hydro helps a lot.

 

And when 20km gun range is not enough for you, maybe BB are not for you.

 

Btw. WG put islands on the map for a reason. They are great at catching torps.

I agree with both of you. Hydro is not some anti-torp wunderwaffe unless you are already predicting torps and evading actively . GK is so unwieldy that if you're straitghtlining, hydro alone won't give you enough time to avoid torps. Even then it helps alot though in mitigating damage, 1 less torp eaten=15k more HP...

[ColonelPete]

The biggest problem is showing broadside towards the enemy or turning at the wrong moment. Torps from the side hurt.

Even against torps, angling helps.

 

When you want to turn, do it behind an island. That blocks torps.

And just breaking for 20s can make a DD miss the whole salvo.

[_Teob_]

I am gonna say this just once.

 

If someone comes to the forum asking for help and you decide to write that the class is not for them or other "smart" remarks like that, reconsider.

 

Either try to help or move on. Don't take a request for advice as a chance to make yourself feel superior.

[Sunleader]

19 minutes ago, rimmer_the said:

Not really a mistake, dd  concealment is such that they do get hits on you, whether it is cyclones, them speed boosting towards you, etc. As they have infinite torps they can just keep trying until they get a hit. 

 

 

 

 

 

No....

 

Yes it is a Mistake. Because guess what. Torpedoes have a certain Range and a certain Speed. And the DDs have a certain Speed and a certain Concealment. Finally you as a BB also got a Certain Concealment.

 

1.

This Creates a Certain Window effect.

Because an Enemy DD needs to be

::

Inside your Concealment Range to See you.

Outside his own Concealment Range so you dont see him.

But inside his own Torpedo Range to Attack you.

::

 

Lets take the Example of Shimakaze vs Grosser Kurfürst.

GKs Concealment is around 15km. Shimas Concealment is around 6km (Rounding Numbers to make it easier to write Down) Shima is using 12km Torpedoes.

So the Shima has to be at least 6km away from you but cant be further than 15km away and has to get to 12km or less to Torpedo You.

 

This means if you get Spotted on your Side of the Map despite not having Fired your Guns and despite not Seeing who it is. In all likelihood an Enemy DD or maybe a Cruiser. So in any case something that might Fire Torpedoes at you. Is within this Range.

It must be inside that Window of your Concealment and the Enemies best Concealment.

 

A Better Player will now Check the Minimap Too. Because if certain Ships with good Concealment have been Seen on the other Side of the Map he can narrow down what Ship is Spotting him.

 

 

2.

More Importandly however is the value from above I mentioned too.

Speed.

 

Your Speed. The Enemy Speed. And the Speed of his Torpedoes.

 

Because you already know where Enemies Spawn. And you know their Speed. These Infos are Public from the Team list.

So if you get Spotted at a Certain Position you can actually make a Guess on where that enemy DD should be.

Especially if you have your own DDs in a certain Position and thus the enemy DD either has to be spotted by them or has to be in a different location far enough away from your DDs to not be Spotted.

Smokes are also a good Indicator.

 

And then there is your Speed. Because you Travel a Certain Distance in a Certain Time.

And depending on the Speed of the Enemy Torpedoes they need a Certain Time to cross a Certain Distance.

 

That means between the Enemy Firing his Torpedoes and you being hit by those Torpedoes there is a Certain Time window in which you need to have Traveled along a Path the Enemy DD has to Predict.

This Time Window is usually big enough that you Travel at least 1-2km in that Window and thats assuming a pretty short drop distance its often much more you travel in that time window. Which is a rather big Distance where the DD either has to use a very Wide Spread that is easy to Evade to cover it. Or has to Choose a very Narrow location to Torpedo assuming that you will be going there.

 

So if you make sure to not go into the same Direction for longer times without changing your Speed. Hitting you with Torpedoes is actually Extremely Difficult.

 

Fun Fact for you.

Most good BB Players are not getting Hit by less Torpedoes than bad BB Players because they are good at Dodging. They get hit by less Torpedoes because in General they will see far less Torpedoes in their Life in the First Place because they usually Change Course and Speed constantly and thus 60-80% of all Torpedoes Fired at them usually roll through the Water somewhere 3-5km away from them without them even seeing them.

 

 

3.

And Finally there is the matter of your Position.

The Enemy DD has to Spawn just like you. So the Direction where he can be after Time -X- is limited. Moreover he can be spotted or his position can be anticipated all the way through.

Its very rare that a DD manages to sneak all around you without ever being at least located roughly once.

So the Direction from which Torps can come is always Limited. And you can always be wary of that Direction.

And that means you can keep your Ship in a Position where you can Evade Torps coming from that Direction much more easily.

 

 

 

 

 

So dont get me wrong.

But no.

DDs do not have a Hit with Torps Guarantee.

If you get hit by maybe 1 or 2 Stray Torps then this might be down to the DD being Lucky (or you being Unlucky) cause you got Hit by a Random Torp the DD threw at you hoping you go that way etc and on top just happened to come to you in just the right moment and angle that you could not evade that single Stray torp.

 

But anything beyond that is ALWAYS a mistake on your Part.

Because you Showed Broadside to the Direction of the Enemy from where you should know that Torps can come from there.

Or Because you kept going in a Predictable Course  for too long and thus got hit by Torps that were Launched at you quite a while ago.

Or Because you failed to notice Smokes, Minimap Spots and your own Detection Radius and thus suddenly got a Torpedo Spread coming in from a Side you did not expect.

Or Because you went into a Position where there is often People and which thus often gets Blind Torped. (Smokes, Island Edges etc)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh....

And they do not have Infinite Torpedoes either. Because Torpedoes Generally come with alot of Reload Time.

So they are a Weapon which you can only use a certain Number of Times in a Battle.

A DD with 120 Seconds Torpedo Reload for example can use these Torps max 10 Times assuming he always Fires them right upon Reload.

More likely he will use them maybe 6 Times during a Full Battle.

 

 

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

honestly the hydro on the GK is better for the ships behind you

if you can organize a push and actually have people that wont abandon you, the hydro covers enough space to let the battleships behind you dodge more torps

the GK is a punching bag anyway, your going to get shot, your going to suffer, better to just accept it and make sure your the only one 

its what that ship is the best at 

[Hades_warrior]

14 hours ago, Itwastuesday said:

Perhaps, but I'm looking to improve my performance on her and the biggest issue I seem to have is 2x Halland 2x Shima every game. 

Thats why you dont rush in to objectives if you see that kind of enemy. Follow your team mate dd and cover him with your guns (and secondaries). Your allie dd will spot enemy dds and their torps so you have not much to worry.

People in this 457s meta underestimate Kurfurst guns as they are quite strong. I play mine with 420 mm and they can deal a lot of damage to any target.

[Itwastuesday]

I'm not really rushing caps, and also rarely am I unseen. I try to take a position where I can keep raining on the enemy cruisers so they have to stay further back with their radars so we can win the cap. That's pretty much the basic plan. Usually this position would be simply close to my team, some kilometers off the cap. I got frustrated at some point and started to HE snipe like all the other battleships and my winrate plummeted 8%, so no more of that.

 

I don't use secondaries build because cruisers at this tier fight from so far away I just wasn't getting value out of that. 

 

Usually I try to consider where the enemy DD can't launch torps rather than all the places they possibly could, but due to range the 20km torp sniper can't launch them from basically through islands and that's it :)