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zengaze

The Russian Bias, a perspective.

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Something in another post brought this to mind, (try not to be offended):

 

Perception is a powerful thing. As we are an English speaking forum, most of us have a decidedly western take on the soviets involvement in WW2. One that is mostly shaped by deep cultural myths. Americans believe they won the war, with British help, the British believe they won the war, with American help, the French believe the British abandoned them, or they would have won the war. The Italians, well the Italians always tried to be on the winning team. Seriously if an Italian tells you he has a racehorse for you to bet on, bet it will lose, you'll win.

 

To cut away bias, you need to look to the facts, evidenced by statistics. During the 39-45 conflict the casualties of the "main" players are as follows (first number is military second is total);

Germany 

5,533,000        6,600,000 -8,800,000

 

France

217,600           567,600

 

UK

383,600          450,700

 

US

416,800           418,500


USSR

8,800,000 -10,700,000    24,000,000

 

Japan 

2,120,000        2,600,000-3,100,000

 

China

3-4,000,000        20,000,000

 

India

87,000       1,500,000-2,500,000

(the Indian total casualties relative to their military dead is an horrific abnormality and anyone interested in British history should look at the reason for that).

 

Poland

240,000           5,600,000

 

I ask you now who fought that conflict, and perhaps when we talk of Russian bias, we have a bit of perspective of the blood price. Game balance is one thing, but at times the meme reinforces the cultural myths we inherit. Full disclosure my grandfather was a leading Communist who was deported from Brittan (I'm irish), seems the British government didn't approve of him trying to get the workers to shoot their monarchs (he died still with a red star on his cap an old man).

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What has this to do with the game?

 

And please take note of your formatting. Black letters do not work well for everyone...

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13 minutes ago, zengaze said:

Something in another post brought this to mind, (try not to be offended):

 

Perception is a powerful thing. As we are an English speaking forum, most of us have a decidedly western take on the soviets involvement in WW2. One that is mostly shaped by deep cultural myths. Americans believe they won the war, with British help, the British believe they won the war, with American help, the French believe the British abandoned them, or they would have won the war. The Italians, well the Italians always tried to be on the winning team. Seriously if an Italian tells you he has a racehorse for you to bet on, bet it will lose, you'll win.

 

To cut away bias, you need to look to the facts, evidenced by statistics. During the 39-45 conflict the casualties of the "main" players are as follows (first number is military second is total);

Germany 

5,533,000        6,600,000 -8,800,000

 

France

217,600           567,600

 

UK

383,600          450,700

 

US

383,600          450,700

 

USSR

8,800,000 -10,700,000    24,000,000

 

Japan 

2,120,000        2,600,000-3,100,000

 

China

3-4,000,000        20,000,000

 

India

87,000       1,500,000-2,500,000

(the Indian total casualties relative to their military dead is an horrific abnormality and anyone interested in British history should look at the reason for that).

 

I ask you now who fought that conflict, and perhaps when we talk of Russian bias, we have a bit of perspective of the blood price. Game balance is one thing, but at times the meme reinforces the cultural myths we inherit. Full disclosure my grandfather was a leading Communist who was deported from Brittan (I'm irish), seems the British government didn't approve of him trying to get the workers to shoot their monarchs (he died still with a red star on his cap an old man).

Nope, this is wrong on too many levels. While your figures are based on the most recent facts, your perception of how each nation believed "it" won the war reflects the propaganda of the period and as Pete said, what has this got to do with the game?

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@OP I dont see the relevance of WW2 casualties in discussion about Russian bias in the game, furthermore if you go under the assumption that it does actually has some relevance, well - the USSR was only pummeled by Germany, Germany in return however was pummeled by ALL of the allied powers, soooo - losing 3 times as many people as Germany has... Well... Ooof... I would say their tech is even more over rated in the game then RU bias alone would suggest... :cap_tea:

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It relates to the reality of the period of warfare this game encompasses. We see many discussions on the forum of the realities of WW2 (as it is called) as a wise ice hockey player once said "Y u hef 2 b so med?"

@iFax  as my figures are factual, what exactly is "wrong on so many levels?"

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4 minutes ago, zengaze said:

It relates to the reality of the period of warfare this game encompasses. We see many discussions on the forum of the realities of WW2 (as it is called) as a wise ice hockey player once said "Y u hef 2 b so med?"

@iFax  as my figures are factual, what exactly is "wrong on so many levels?"

So where was your grandfather banished to? Or ie where did your family live and where do you live today?

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Stalin probably contributed a significant amount of those casualties with his commissars.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

So where was your grandfather banished to? Or ie where did your family live and where do you live today?

He was Irish born, I am Irish born, though i added him as light comic relief.

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34 minutes ago, zengaze said:

As we are an English speaking forum, most of us have a decidedly western take on the soviets involvement in WW2. One that is mostly shaped by deep cultural myths.

Anyone with any knowledge of World War 2 will be aware of the massive and widely acknowledged contribution of the Soviet people, their armies and air forces. But when it comes to naval forces, their contribution was less than that of Canada - and that's not to knock either party, btw. We understand that WG is a Russian company, has a dedicated CIS server and playerbase and that there is an interesting naval history there. But as has been observed so often, the ships that come out are based on unrealistic design studies, unconstrained by budget or industrial ability, and are put into competition with other national lines which most definitely did get filtered by real world concerns, and that means there have been a few OP ships released. I wouldn't call it "Soviet Bias", but the designers do need to keep that issue in mind when they're constructing new lines of ships.

 

8 minutes ago, zengaze said:

as my figures are factual, what exactly is "wrong on so many levels?"

You've got the same figures for the UK as you have for the USA. HTH. 

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7 minutes ago, zengaze said:

It relates to the reality of the period of warfare this game encompasses. We see many discussions on the forum of the realities of WW2 (as it is called) as a wise ice hockey player once said "Y u hef 2 b so med?"

@iFax  as my figures are factual, what exactly is "wrong on so many levels?"

No, it does not. Casualty numbers of an land focussed war do not have much to do with a naval game, which includes ship built long before that said war...

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7 minutes ago, zengaze said:

It relates to the reality of the period of warfare this game encompasses. We see many discussions on the forum of the realities of WW2 (as it is called) as a wise ice hockey player once said "Y u hef 2 b so med?"

@iFax  as my figures are factual, what exactly is "wrong on so many levels?"

For example selective data... Look up Poland losses for example. 

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2 minutes ago, invicta2012 said:

Anyone with any knowledge of World War 2 will be aware of the massive and widely acknowledged contribution of the Soviet people, their armies and air forces. But when it comes to naval forces, their contribution was less than that of Canada - and that's not to knock either party, btw. We understand that WG is a Russian company, has a dedicated CIS server and playerbase and that there is an interesting naval history there. But as has been observed so often, the ships that come out are based on unrealistic design studies, unconstrained by budget or industrial ability, and are put into competition with other national lines which most definitely did get filtered by real world concerns, and that means there have been a few OP ships released.

 

You've got the same figures for the UK as you have for the USA. HTH. 

Ughhh thanks for the catch didn't realise. I'll edit

 

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3 minutes ago, dommo77 said:

For example selective data... Look up Poland losses for example. 

Sorry for not adding Poland, it wasn't intentional, i'll edit.

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12 minutes ago, zengaze said:

He was Irish born, I am Irish born, though i added him as light comic relief.

So how much destruction of WW2 did your grandfather witness while living in Ireland?

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11 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

No, it does not. Casualty numbers of an land focussed war do not have much to do with a naval game, which includes ship built long before that said war...

Believe it or not Pete, naval casualties are incorporated into the figures.

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4 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

So how much destruction of WW2 did your grandfather witness while living in Ireland?

Well that depends, what you define as "WW2", members of my family fought and died in that conflict when it actually erupted, in Spain in '36. But this isn't about my family :)

 

 

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10 minutes ago, zengaze said:

Believe it or not Pete, naval casualties are incorporated into the figures.

I never doubted that, but you posted the overall figures. What does that mean? What does that mean for the game?

 

Since you posted the chinese casualties: The chinese casualties were MUCH bigger than the US and UK casualties combined. What does that mean for the chinese contribution to naval warfare of WW2, especially compared to the US and UK.

Please elaborate :cap_like:

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I dont really see how WW2 casualties has to do with the Bias

 

Facts matter tho

Britain had the largest fleet pre war fleet

Germany were ambitious and built some nice ships (had limited steel and oil reserves so they needed to expand)

Japan had prepared for war for several decades and they had a nice fleet of ships but they lacked many resources (oil, rubber, steel etc, needed to expand)

USA had a good amount of ships pre war and produced an insane amount of ships during the war (look it up, they produced an insane amount of all war materials with in many cases a total production of more than the rest combined)

Russia had a few outdated ships and did not produce ships much during the war (but they made a lot of tanks and finally at great cost rolled over Germany)

This list could go on for ever but its just bla bla bla

 

 

This is a Russian game owned by a Russian company, not making it more "interesting" for Russians would be bad business (note the word "game")

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4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I never doubted that, but you posted the overall figures. What does that mean? What does that mean for the game?

 

Since you posted the chinese casualties: The chinese casualties were MUCH bigger than the US and UK casualties combined. What does that mean for the chinese contribution to naval warfare of WW2, especially compared to the US and UK.

Please elaborate :cap_like:

Pete i would join the rest of the forum in not trying to convince you of anything.

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7 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Topic moved!

Apologies for posting this in the wrong section, i shall endeavour to help you from now on, by making your role easier by highlighting for you posts which are not on topic :)

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7 minutes ago, zengaze said:

Well that depends, what you define as "WW2", members of my family fought and died in that conflict when it actually erupted, in Spain in '36. But this isn't about my family :)

No its not, but the reason I am asking is because the way you are posting or ie your thought process is rather typical for people that live in countries that were not ravaged by war (the territory, not losses of life in expeditionary forces overseas) for a very long time (if ever) and esp modern war, all the casualties and destruction your family members faced while living in Ireland were kinda distant and remote, even if ones family members died in it its was scarcely more emotionally connected to war then say a random loss at sea while being a sailor or whatnot, and you got that mindset... Trust me you have a VERY different perspective about war when shells are raining down on your head and you are running into shelters every day/couple of days/multiple times a day, very different indeed...

 

But enough OT, back to discussion at hand  - naval forces of a nation and the amount of losses there have very little if any relation with the technology of the nations navy, esp in WW2 and double so for this game, you should consider what navies of WW2 had which assets at the start of WW2 and what they emerged with from the war, do some more research and you will understand the true ridiculousness of the RU bias in this game...

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1 minute ago, Yedwy said:

No its not, but the reason I am asking is because the way you are posting or ie your thought process is rather typical for people that live in countries that were not ravaged by war (the territory, not losses of life in expeditionary forces overseas) for a very long time (if ever) and esp modern war, all the casualties and destruction your family members faced while living in Ireland were kinda distant and remote, even if ones family members died in it its was scarcely more emotionally connected to war then say a random loss at sea while being a sailor or whatnot, and you got that mindset... Trust me you have a VERY different perspective about war when shells are raining down on your head and you are running into shelters every day/couple of days/multiple times a day, very different indeed...

 

But enough OT, back to discussion at hand  - naval forces of a nation and the amount of losses there have very little if any relation with the technology of the nations navy, esp in WW2 and double so for this game, you should consider what navies of WW2 had which assets at the start of WW2 and what they emerged with from the war, do some more research and you will understand the true ridiculousness of the RU bias in this game...

You really shouldn't make assumptions as to someone's experience of conflict. I was an infantry soldier in the nineties, i'm older but think this is still modern, in a unit with instant name recognition, though it wasn't on a ship, so probably not relevant. So no, no understanding of war.

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11 minutes ago, zengaze said:

i shall endeavour to help you from now on, by making your role easier by highlighting for you posts which are not on topic :)

You can always "report" posts or topics for being "offtopic" for that matter. 

But, try not to discuss moderation in posts too, since it is another form of rule violation in the forum. 

 

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