Gneisenau in 2020 - a case of everything wrong in WoWs

[st_dasa]

Hello everyone.

 

I believe this kind of a rant has been posted before, so I apologize in advance as I am somewhat new to this forum. However, there is one ship which I just have to review, at least so I can remind y'all how much powercreep plagues this game.

 

Since 2017, when I've joined this game, I've been watching all kinds of different streams and YT videos on recommended lines and ships. Obviously, KM BB line was kinda always the one frowned upon, mostly because of the inaccuracy of its main guns. So, I've grinded US, IJN, SSSR and Baguette BBs, loved almost every single one of them while avoiding KMs. And that says A LOT.

 

Fast forward to 2020, I've decided to give KM's a chance. After hearing about all the buffs, I mean, the line should be at least decent, right? Ok, so I started playing... firstly, Konig. Your classical dreadnought, not much to say about it. Then Bayern, the ship I absolutely adored. Strong, tanky, good guns for its tier.... a true BB captain's dream.

 

And then comes the 6 gun monstrosity known as a Gneisenau. Now, I do not despise 6 gun ships, I love my Georgia. Somehow, I thought I'd get at the very least something similar in terms of play-style - a relatively fast flank pusher that can bully ships with its presence. Oh boy, was I wrong.

 

Gneisenau is literally a representation of everything that is wrong with this game. She is weak, eats HE like a champ, gets overmatched by all of the recent additions like a SinOP. You can literally hear Mushashis drooling when you get spotted, and 10 seconds later you enjoy your gameplay while eating 15k+ pens trough the nose. I'm kind of a guy that truly believed that a player can substitue with his skill bad design of ship, and honestly, I do not take CC's (for example Flamu) ship reviews to be god given.

Her AA is bad. Her torps get so easily broken its like you don't even have them. She performs poorly when downtiered, even worse when uptiered. A forgotten, powercrept ship that has no place at T7.... hell, I'd take every T5 BB over this ship.

As an example, I'll show you the results of today's game which was breaking point for me. So I was top tier in a standard match, I saw the left enemy flank closing in so I decided to push the right one. I mean, Gneisenau is a ''pushing'' ship, right? I caught off-guard two Omahas, one Myoko, Gneisenau, Schors and later on had enemy Florida at 6 km full broadside. Take note that I was literally a first ship to push, not a single DD or CA was in front of me.

 

Let's us examine the results:

 

 

 

One could say, yeah, you had one of those steamrolls games, however:

 

Remember, I was the tip of the spear, I literally charged 6 ships, caught them off-guard, shot at their FLAT broadsides and got this result. Out of 98 shells fired (mostly from the front two guns as I had to angle, DPM is abysmal), I got 23 hits that caused less than 40k dmg. At sub 10 km of range. On flat broadsides. With BB guns. At T5. Omaha dumpsters this ship. OMAHA. If I was sailing in, lets say Fuso, I'd dumpster the entire flank and get smth in range of 100k+ dmg.

 

Mind you, I'm a somewhat decent BB player. I love my big burly boys and I do good in them. I know how to position myself and when to push.

 

Now, I'm not a kind of guy who would blame the ship for this, no and no. The whole point of this rant is just to add another piece to the mosaic of WG's negligence of the old ship lines from the fresh perspective, to examine the oblivious direction this game is going at and prove the blatant powercreep that is plaguing this game from top to bottom tier.

 

I will finish this little rant with a few questions I know many of you already asked;

 

1. What's the point of this ship?
2. What's the point of tiers when failures like Gneisenau should have at least be two tiers lower, but monstrosities like SinOP are somehow presented to be at the same power level?

3. When will WG take time to examine their product and balance the stuff that had to be done three years ago, instead of pumping OP new (insert *that* nation here) ship lines that push older ones every few months more into the margin?
4. WHY do historical, real ships get a treatment like this? It's an utter and shameful disgrace for a company that produces all those YT naval legend and history videos.

5. When will we actually get the rewards one deserves when positioned properly? When I catch an Omaha at 7 km in my T7 BB, full stop and broadside and I shoot it where I have to, I expect that ship to EXPLODE, not to see my shells splash nowhere near I aimed. Why can Sinop do that, but Gneisenau cannot?
6. How is this kind of gameplay inspiring to anybody? I mean, you do realize such performance of a ship that is completely RNG dependent can actually push away some people from your product, right?

 

I know, it's mostly rhetorical and y'all covered it already.

 

Peace.

[Itwastuesday]

I liked it a lot, but only because it has torps. The guns are useless as they are useless on KM battleships post tier 6. And the follow-ups don't have torps, so what do they do, exactly?

 

I'm at Ncal of American battleship line and boy, is it fun to have a battleship that doesn't have a stupid broadsiding suicide design nor the artillery equivalent of a blindfolded sawed-off shotgun sniper. 

[The_White_Whale]

I enjoyed the Genei, but I do enjoy mobile Battleships. Have previously suggested a buff to the secondaries of a 6km range to smooth the large jmup from 5.3 to 7.5km of the Bismarck, especially as WG are now testing a T5 BB with a 5.5km range. But with the skills rework coming then maybe we will see a bit more love there.

[ForlornSailor]

You are even lucky, you are toptier. In a T9 game, which you see so often in a T7... ah well Ill stop here.

[Yedwy]

Well every KM player shoud grind Siegfried and then see how the line or in this case Gneise in particular should look like...

[ColonelPete]

Sinop is the only Tier VII BB that is tougher than Gneisenau and that is based on questionable balance decisions made for a paper design.

Yes, the problem of Gneisenau is the 6 guns, that is why individual salvos can be wonky and frustrate you. That is why I did not play her for quite some time too, but the guns are good for Tier VII.

 

 

 

[st_dasa]

32 minutes ago, Itwastuesday said:

I liked it a lot, but only because it has torps. The guns are useless as they are useless on KM battleships post tier 6. And the follow-ups don't have torps, so what do they do, exactly?

 

I'm at Ncal of American battleship line and boy, is it fun to have a battleship that doesn't have a stupid broadsiding suicide design nor the artillery equivalent of a blindfolded sawed-off shotgun sniper. 

 

American BBs, even with all the powercreep (even Iowa and somewhat Montana), are heaven compared to this ship.

 

3 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Sinop is the only Tier VII BB that is tougher than Gneisenau and that is based on questionable balance decisions made for a paper design.

Yes, the problem of Gneisenau is the 6 guns, that is why individual salvos can be wonky and frustrate you. That is why I did not play her for quite some time too, but the guns are good for Tier VII.

 

 

 

 

Mind you, my review comes from the experienced player's perspective. I already know what the other BBs can do, so yeah, playing this nonsense makes the disbelief that much stronger. All guns are nice when they do dmg, and all guns are bad when they don't.

 

Gneisenau's problem is not perhaps that the guns are bad per se, but the whole package cannot fit the role it was intended to.

[st_dasa]

11 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

You are even lucky, you are toptier. In a T9 game, which you see so often in a T7... ah well Ill stop here.

 

Exactly. When a ship performs this poorly when top tier....

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, st_dasa said:

Mind you, my review comes from the experienced player's perspective. I already know what the other BBs can do, so yeah, playing this nonsense makes the disbelief that much stronger. All guns are nice when they do dmg, and all guns are bad when they don't.

Then you are playing her wrong, which is not surprising when you do not know what she is for:

38 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

 

1. What's the point of this ship?
2. What's the point of tiers when failures like Gneisenau should have at least be two tiers lower, but monstrosities like SinOP are somehow presented to be at the same power level?

 

3. When will WG take time to examine their product and balance the stuff that had to be done three years ago, instead of pumping OP new (insert *that* nation here) ship lines that push older ones every few months more into the margin?
4. WHY do historical, real ships get a treatment like this? It's an utter and shameful disgrace for a company that produces all those YT naval legend and history videos.

5. When will we actually get the rewards one deserves when positioned properly? When I catch an Omaha at 7 km in my T7 BB, full stop and broadside and I shoot it where I have to, I expect that ship to EXPLODE, not to see my shells splash nowhere near I aimed. Why can Sinop do that, but Gneisenau cannot?
6. How is this kind of gameplay inspiring to anybody? I mean, you do realize such performance of a ship that is completely RNG dependent can actually push away some people from your product, right?

1. Exploiting weaknesses in the enemies position on the map
2. Gneisenau outperforms Nagato and Colorado, yes, Sinop is too strong and therefore not the benchmark
3. Considering all Tier VII, she sits comfortably in the middle, one could say she is the best balanced Tier VII BB: Nagato and Colorado are too weak, Sinop is too strong, Lyon is a DPM monster, but that is ok and King George performs well since the RU BB showed up...
4. Technically, Gneisenau is not historical, take a look at Scharnhorst, she does fine, as does King George
5. Gneisenau can do that, as I said individual salvos can feel wonky, but overall she gets the job done
6. you either like melee focussed BB or you do not, that is a preference of playstyle

[Mikey626]

Dude, the Gneisenau in tier 5 is like a pedo's wet dream. Its basically bringing a sledgehammer to a pre school boxing match. GG my dude

[Hades_warrior]

I found Georgia worse ship over Gneisenau, because Gneis at least have German armor and you wont afraid that 2 salvos will delete you like Georgia can be deleted.

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

Just hold on til you get the gem that is Friedrich der Große...

[Furius_Marius]

try Nagato then... xD

[Srle_Vigilante]

Have you tried the Scharnhorst? Heard its a completely different ship.

[st_dasa]

4 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Then you are playing her wrong, which is not surprising when you do not know what she is for:

1. Exploiting weaknesses in the enemies position on the map
2. Gneisenau outperforms Nagato and Colorado, yes, Sinop is too strong and therefore not the benchmark
3. Considering all Tier VII, she sits comfortably in the middle, one could say she is the best balanced Tier VII BB: Nagato and Colorado are too weak, Sinop is too strong, Lyon is a DPM monster, but that is ok and King George performs well since the RU BB showed up...
4. Technically, Gneisenau is not historical, take a look at Scharnhorst, she does fine, as does King George
5. Gneisenau can do that, as I said individual salvos can feel wonky, but overall she gets the job done
6. you either like melee focussed BB or you do not, that is a preference of playstyle

 

Riiiight, now go and compare our BB stats, Gneisenau included.

 

And oh,..

 

1. I know, I'm kinda better than you

2. It does not when a good player is sailing in them

3. Depends on the prespective, I do not honestly care about your averege potato, they skew statistics that much. If you look at bare stats, Yama is pretty sh*t, right? Now give her to a good player. He'll dumpster you and half of your team.

4. Gneisenau is more historical than 80% ships in the game, at least from t7 to t10

5. She does, but not well

6. There is no melee in this game, you meant brawling BBs - and I have just sufficiently explained why she is a bad brawling BB in today's meta

 

 

 

[Captain_Newman]

Gneis used to be manageable (never really amazing, tbh), but you're right, with the power creep over the years she hasn't aged well. Even at her own tier, the only chance she has vs. the likes of Sinop is if you can somehow close in for torps, which is situational and won't be possible every battle, especially if you intend to survive the experience so you can keep fighting after the kill to get that win. Shooting at spotted DDs, you'll be lucky if you can connect one shell due to only 6 inaccurate barrels. Yes you can spec for secondaries, but they don't really make up for main battery's deficiencies.

 

Throw her against newer t9's though? Not even funny. Both BB's and supercruisers will laugh at you, and so will the DD's that and HE spammers which can burn you down with ease. She needs a dispersion buff, 6 barrels with KM accuracy never worked that well but nowadays, with all the powercreep? Crap, crap and crap.

[st_dasa]

5 minutes ago, Furius_Marius said:

try Nagato then... xD

 

Yes, Nagato is powercrept, however I think she can still do much better compared to our Gneis boi and affect the outcome of the match more, at least in good hands. Better guns, consistency and range are just more valuable than tankiness and torps in today's meta.

 

10 minutes ago, Mikey626 said:

Dude, the Gneisenau in tier 5 is like a pedo's wet dream. Its basically bringing a sledgehammer to a pre school boxing match. GG my dude

 

I know, I was exaggerating a bit, but you get the point :D

 

[Exocet6951]

Gneisenau is, and always has been very low skill floor, low skill ceiling.

Put a below average player in a Gneisenau, and he'll do better than in a Colorado, by virtue of faster firing guns, much, more speed to retreat faster, MUCH forgiving armor scheme and torpedoes.

The lower firepower malus doesn't matter much to people who wouldn't see the difference between it and other ships in the first place.

 

However, in the hands of a decent player, suddenly the 6 guns and poor accuracy becomes more a detriment than lack of speed and 26mm plating on other ships.

And that's where you fit in.

 

German BBs are fundamentally stupid, and have been since their inception. They're poor accuracy, very forgiving, and have very little potential.
A way to have "xXxKillerGermanBismarckxXx" , History channel enthusiast, a way to have pretty little pew pew secondary fireworks and survive long enough to fire a few salvoes despite taking a beating from 6 other people, because he massively over extended.

 

 

The ship isn't bad, you're just not the targeted audience.

[st_dasa]

6 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Gneisenau is, and always has been very low skill floor, low skill ceiling.

Put a below average player in a Gneisenau, and he'll do better than in a Colorado, by virtue of faster firing guns, much, more speed to retreat faster, MUCH forgiving armor scheme and torpedoes.

The lower firepower malus doesn't matter much to people who wouldn't see the difference between it and other ships in the first place.

 

However, in the hands of a decent player, suddenly the 6 guns and poor accuracy becomes more a detriment than lack of speed and 26mm plating on other ships.

And that's where you fit in.

 

German BBs are fundamentally stupid, and have been since their inception. They're poor accuracy, very forgiving, and have very little potential.
A way to have "xXxKillerGermanBismarckxXx" , History channel enthusiast, a way to have pretty little pew pew secondary fireworks and survive long enough to fire a few salvoes despite taking a beating from 6 other people, because he massively over extended.

 

 

The ship isn't bad, you're just not the targeted audience.

 

Nice perspective and well put :)

[Itwastuesday]

11 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

German BBs are fundamentally stupid, and have been since their inception. They're poor accuracy, very forgiving, and have very little potential.
A way to have "xXxKillerGermanBismarckxXx" , History channel enthusiast, a way to have pretty little pew pew secondary fireworks and survive long enough to fire a few salvoes despite taking a beating from 6 other people, because he massively over extended.

It sure seems so. You have your turtledeck armor and think like nice, I get no citadels! Then you play other bb lines and notice that you don't get citadels all that much either.

[ColonelPete]

32 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

1. I know, I'm kinda better than you

2. It does not when a good player is sailing in them

3. Depends on the prespective, I do not honestly care about your averege potato, they skew statistics that much. If you look at bare stats, Yama is pretty sh*t, right? Now give her to a good player. He'll dumpster you and half of your team.

4. Gneisenau is more historical than 80% ships in the game, at least from t7 to t10

5. She does, but not well

6. There is no melee in this game, you meant brawling BBs - and I have just sufficiently explained why she is a bad brawling BB in today's meta

1. Your Gneis has the highest WR of your Tier VII BB, why are you complaining then?
2. Your Gneis outpferforms your Nagato in every way...
3. That is how the game is balanced and Yamato looks fine
4. Historical is not a % value...
5. Maybe lower your expectations, 6 BB guns are 6 BB guns
6. there is, and brawling still works, just a matter of timing

[invicta2012]

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

2. What's the point of tiers when failures like Gneisenau should have at least be two tiers lower, but monstrosities like SinOP are somehow presented to be at the same power level?

3. When will WG take time to examine their product and balance the stuff that had to be done three years ago, instead of pumping OP new (insert *that* nation here) ship lines that push older ones every few months more into the margin?

They did balance it, though, back in November 2019 when they changed/improved the dispersion formula. And that did make a difference. I had given up playing Randoms at that point (a large part of which was down to trying to level the original Gneisenau which was little more than a mobile shrine to RNGesus) but I've played it since and it seems to be better, in the sense that it only seems to be criticals which dependent on RNG, and not hits. I also think it's a nice gateway into the large German cruisers we've had lots of recently. 

 

28 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Gneisenau is, and always has been very low skill floor, low skill ceiling.

Put a below average player in a Gneisenau, and he'll do better than in a Colorado, by virtue of faster firing guns, much, more speed to retreat faster, MUCH forgiving armor scheme and torpedoes.

The lower firepower malus doesn't matter much to people who wouldn't see the difference between it and other ships in the first place.

Stop looking over my shoulder when I'm playing. 

 

But I completely agree with you. 

[Zieten]

Well, Gneisenau could be worse - it could have Scharnhorsts guns

[Wulf_Ace]

Gneisenau my second favorite ship in the game. 61% win in him, amazing ship, speed, torps, guns everything.

[Itwastuesday]

47 minutes ago, Zieten said:

Well, Gneisenau could be worse - it could have Scharnhorsts guns

Or better? 9 rifles and faster reload.