Is FLAK as useless as claimed....when it is hitting planes attacking other ships ?

[Beastofwar]

We all know the claim FLAK is avoidable for skilled players.....meaning the FLAK that is coming from the ship that is attacked.

 

But if this FLAK is coming from another ship, shooting the attacking planes in the sides and back.....the planes cannot dodge that....

 

Situation 1 : You are a support Cruiser postitioned just outside a cap ready to kill the enemy DD that will show up there. Maybe you have radar, maybe SAP/Smoke...whatever. The allied DD is going in the cap and finds itself under plane attack. The planes evade the FLAK coming from the DD, but the planes are also flying into your FLAK range ( ~6 km ) which is shooting the planes with FLAK explosions in their sides and back.  No way they dodge that.

 

Situation 2 : You are a long range support Cruiser manouevering  near Battleships shooting enemies in the distance. Torpedo bombers are incoming to attack an allied BB. The bombers are evading the BB's FLAK. But that BB is in range of your AA ( ~6 km) and those planes are shot with FLAK explosion in the sides and back by your ship. No way they dodge that....

 

Now i can accept someone claiming to be able to avoid most FLAK when attacking the ship where the FLAK is coming from......but evading FLAK coming from other ships from other directions then plane heading ? No way.

 

So while one may claim "FLAK is useless for you" as a protective skill, he cannot claim "FLAK is useless" as it will definitly kill planes......just not the ones that are attacking YOUR ship. But the ones that are attacking your allies !

 

This also means that when one team all keep a ~ 5 km distance from each other  they will make operating for a CV near impossible as it will always be catching FLAK from multiple ships and sides  it can not evade. Something boycotting high horse clans maybe do not wish to see ? You are not protected in dense packed  "blobs" per definition as that is merely weak overlapping continuous AA and evadable FLAK coming from the planes heading .......but spaced out at ~5 km so every ship is covering another ship by  FLAK explosions in  planes sides and back is another matter entirely ! There are no Neo's in this games matrix.......

 

With that mechanic of covering allies in your FLAK range ( = outer AA ring ) which is now actually killing planes no matter how skilled the CV player is, one could be looking into if it is usefull to invest in buffing AA with skills and modules.

 

Any flaws in this that i am overlooking ? WG seems to think the AA mechanics are ok.....being hit by FLAK cripples squadrons if not outright killing them. It is very powerful when it cannot be dodged.

 

Or is the subject not interesting now FLAK "unintentionally" kills all detaching planes returning to CV ? That situation might not last very long.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lafeel]

The short answer is: It's not.

 

The long answer is more complicated than that, but you're definetly on to something here.

[El2aZeR]

54 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

the planes cannot dodge that

 

Someone does not know how to use the W and S keys.

 

Also flak always spawns in a single wall no matter how many ships are firing. "Cross flak" does not exist, therefore flak can always be dodged. The claim above is a blatant lie.

[SkollUlfr]

this is pretty much a density of fire issue.

2 flak fields is inherently going to fill more of the air, leaving fewer holes to dodge through than one.

my experience is that multiple aa ships hitting their o key at the right time is a better way to take out a squadron anyway.

 

another benefit of being the supporting ship in that scenario, is that you keep the planes on the side with boosted aa, while the target has to choose what side to boost.

then iirc, there is a whole mess of what range a ships max aa dps actually is. unless that got changed in the year i was out.

 

[Beastofwar]

Situation for those that like pictures better...

 

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

another benefit of being the supporting ship in that scenario, is that you keep the planes on the side with boosted aa, while the target has to choose what side to boost.

 

If you are within flak range then your DPS does nothing as long range AA is typically weaker than Shimakaze total DPS.

 

And flak is always dodgeable. Here's me diving into a bunch of Minos without sustaining a single flak hit:

 

[Beastofwar]

35 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

this is pretty much a density of fire issue.

2 flak fields is inherently going to fill more of the air, leaving fewer holes to dodge through than one.

my experience is that multiple aa ships hitting their o key at the right time is a better way to take out a squadron anyway.

 

another benefit of being the supporting ship in that scenario, is that you keep the planes on the side with boosted aa, while the target has to choose what side to boost.

then iirc, there is a whole mess of what range a ships max aa dps actually is. unless that got changed in the year i was out.

 

 

Not only the density although that would add much to the effect ofc........but mostly the direction it's coming from.

 

When planes are shot from multiple angles that are not in their heading they cannot dodge it. So spaced out ships that are still covering the other ships with their FLAK zone/ outer AA ring around them are a terrible threat to CV players.

 

That is why even blobs may not work as expected.....when packed tightly together all FLAK still comes from 1 direction and can be evaded ( situation is perfectily displayed in  El2aZeR vid btw.....FLAK still coming from 1 direction : in front of him,  which is not what i meant with spacing out giving other ship cover from other directions, thus shooting the planes in their sides and back which can not be evaded )

 

For FLAK to work you need to catch planes attacking another ship shooting them from the side or back. This is often achieved automatcily when being ~5 km away from a ship that is attacked, such as rocketeers griefing a DD while you are within FLAK range with a Cruiser.....

 

So DD maybe need to learn to stay near the outer AA range of allies ships if they want to live.....capping is important, but exploding in a cap is retarded.

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

When planes are shot from multiple angles that are not in their heading they cannot dodge it.

 

Again, this does not happen because flak aim is unified for all ships, not individual.

 

11 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

situation in El2aZeR vid btw.....FLAK still coming from 1 direction : in front of him

 

 

One Mino clearly to the left, others clearly to the right.

Any other blatant lies you wanna tell us?

 

[Ashardalon_Dragnipur]

flak is not really an area around the ship at wich explosions happen 

its an area around the ship at wich range it ads its flak cloud number to the defending ships area 

there is no side flakking 

its always only from the defending ship, just a few extra clouds for that ship 

[eliastion]

1 hour ago, Beastofwar said:

Now i can accept someone claiming to be able to avoid most FLAK when attacking the ship where the FLAK is coming from......but evading FLAK coming from other ships from other directions then plane heading ? No way.

It's easy - you just need to understand that this isn't how FLAK works at all. The puffs of FLAK that you see from ship perspective are pure decoration, a plane squadron plays a minigame with FLAK spawning more-or-less in lines based on planes' position and speed.

[SkollUlfr]

37 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

Not only the density although that would add much to the effect ofc........but mostly the direction it's coming from.

afaik, none of the AA ingame actually had a direction.

the game  just checks the squad in in the right halo region, then farts aa on the squadron. or in front of the squadron in the case of flak.

 

55 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

If you are within flak range then your DPS does nothing as long range AA is typically weaker than Shimakaze total DPS.

so, 

long range aa is only flak, and aa halos do not overlap?

or 

long range AA is only flak, but non flak halos overlap?

from your description, i take it sector reinforcement must not be used if planes are only in flak range?

was never clear on this, plus had a year out.

[Beastofwar]

So El2aZeR is claiming there is no directions FLAK is coming from but just spawning of explosions in front of the planes......Then it would be a matter of density being spawned.

 

Smolensk can throw up 8 explosions, and 10 with DFAA+6th slot module.

 

How many FLAK explosions would be enough make evading FLAK explosions impossible ? Can 1 Smolenks + a Grozovoi ( DFAA+6th slot ) = 16 explosions do that ? 2 Smolensks + 1 Grozoi = 26 explosions ?

 

 

[El2aZeR]

11 minutes ago, SkollUlfr said:

was never clear on this, plus had a year out.

 

Long range AA has DPS but it is typically extremely weak to the point where it is negligible. For example Minotaur has a true base DPS value of 120 on her long range aura. To put this into perspective Shimakaze total true base DPS is 142.

Flak spawns from your max AA range to 3.5km, meaning that if you're within 3.5km of a ship that ship will no longer spawn flak.

 

Sector should be used immediately.

 

1 minute ago, Beastofwar said:

How many FLAK explosions would be enough make evading FLAK explosions impossible ?

 

The amount of flak doesn't matter when evading it. Flak could spawn with a density and width from one end of the map to the other and it would still be dodgeable.

[Beastofwar]

Always dodgeable eh ?

 

[renhanxue]

26 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

So El2aZeR is claiming there is no directions FLAK is coming from but just spawning of explosions in front of the planes......Then it would be a matter of density being spawned.

 

Smolensk can throw up 8 explosions, and 10 with DFAA+6th slot module.

 

How many FLAK explosions would be enough make evading FLAK explosions impossible ? Can 1 Smolenks + a Grozovoi ( DFAA+6th slot ) = 16 explosions do that ? 2 Smolensks + 1 Grozoi = 26 explosions ?

 

 

The wiki has a good explanation of how flak is spawned: https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Anti-Aircraft_Fire#Flak

 

Adding to what's written there, flak always spawns such that it'll take your planes about two seconds to reach the bubble, no matter how fast they're going. It always spawns in front of your planes, but can "miss" so it spawns further to the left or to the right of where your planes are going (so if they're going slower, the bubbles spawn further away, and vice versa). The exact locations of the bubbles is random but the way it spawns is deterministic. The key thing to understand here is the "flak spawns two seconds away from your planes" thing - it means that as long as you're changing your speed at the correct intervals, you will not be where the flak bubble is when it explodes.

[SkollUlfr]

21 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

 

How many FLAK explosions would be enough make evading FLAK explosions impossible ?

not so much a matter of number, but formation in that scenario. if you want it un-dodgeable it would need to be in a semi-circle in front of the planes, narrow enough they couldnt break-turn top get out, and tall enough they couldnt use the change in altitude from the attack curves.

 

19 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Flak spawns from your max AA range to 3.5km, meaning that if you're within 3.5km of a ship that ship will no longer spawn flak.

 

Sector should be used immediately.

thanks

[rage1750]

28 minutes ago, Beastofwar said:

How many FLAK explosions would be enough make evading FLAK explosions impossible ?

 

Couldnt find a code for infinity symbol hence the picture.

 

 

[eliastion]

17 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

The amount of flak doesn't matter when evading it. Flak could spawn with a density and width from one end of the map to the other and it would still be dodgeable.

Well, that's assuming the current way it works. If it started spawning more randomly, then with enough density there would be nowhere to dodge to. But as long as it's basically a single line at set height, exactly at the distance appropriate for your current speed... yeah, eating is a blunder by CV player and spawning more flak only serves to make it easier to make this blunder - but even if f*cking up becomes relatively easier, it's still you f*cking up, not something you couldn't avoid (well, not ounting the glorious invisible flak when things get bugged - does that still happen? ).

[blue_badgerest]

6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

If you are within flak range then your DPS does nothing as long range AA is typically weaker than Shimakaze total DPS.

 

And flak is always dodgeable. Here's me diving into a bunch of Minos without sustaining a single flak hit:

 

Ah yes, the infamous "if I can do it, anyone can do it" shenanigan all over again.

[__Helmut_Kohl__]

5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

The amount of flak doesn't matter when evading it. Flak could spawn with a density and width from one end of the map to the other and it would still be dodgeable.

 

A cluster of Stalingrads in CW could create quite a scary DefAA wall though. 

 

In normal situations, the only problem for me are "inaccurate" Flak bursts that appear where they should not be, i.e. my planned path of evasion. 

[Yedwy]

7 hours ago, SkollUlfr said:

2 flak fields is inherently going to fill more of the air, leaving fewer holes to dodge through than one.

This + when you are in a path where you cant really do much dodging for instance when in the preparation for the dive and dive itself you will eat the flak that is spawned on top of you by a nearby ship (not the target) as you simply have no option to do anything if you want to actually hit the target...

[eliastion]

1 hour ago, blue_badgerest said:

Ah yes, the infamous "if I can do it, anyone can do it" shenanigan all over again.

No. He said "dodgeable", answering to comments asking how much/affirming that with enough flak dodging is impossible.

So, to straighten out your accusation:

It's not "if I can do it, anyone can do it".

It's "if I can do it, it can be done".

And the latter sounds pretty legitimate, unless you consider him a miracle maker functioning within bounds of some other reality (and alternative set of game rules) that allow him to perform physically impossible actions

[Uglesett]

8 hours ago, Beastofwar said:

When planes are shot from multiple angles that are not in their heading they cannot dodge it. So spaced out ships that are still covering the other ships with their FLAK zone/ outer AA ring around them are a terrible threat to CV players.

 

That is why even blobs may not work as expected.....when packed tightly together all FLAK still comes from 1 direction and can be evaded ( situation is perfectily displayed in  El2aZeR vid btw.....FLAK still coming from 1 direction : in front of him,  which is not what i meant with spacing out giving other ship cover from other directions, thus shooting the planes in their sides and back which can not be evaded )

What part of "flak always spawns in a single wall" didn't you understand?

 

I mean, iirc you've even posted WG's illustration of the flak spawn pattern yourself multiple times yourself. Flak is a pure aircraft minigame where it spawns in a pattern in the frontal sector of the squadron, regardless of where the ship firing is located.

[Beastofwar]

14 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

What part of "flak always spawns in a single wall" didn't you understand?

 

I mean, iirc you've even posted WG's illustration of the flak spawn pattern yourself multiple times yourself. Flak is a pure aircraft minigame where it spawns in a pattern in the frontal sector of the squadron, regardless of where the ship firing is located.

 

Please quote the part of WG text where this "wall in front of you" is explicitly explained.......i could not read that anywhere.

[ForlornSailor]

Again the same thing? You didnt understood the last time? Dont you still get it, that its irrelevant if you dont manage to dodge all? Dont you understand, that the absolute only single relevant factor is, to keep enough planes alive, so that you can fly attacks with any planeclass at any point? Who cares about the exact number of flaks avoided or taken during a match? Do you think, CV players like @El2aZeR or @__Helmut_Kohl__ count the number of flaks, that hit them during a game? No, they dont care about that, they know how to dodge enough of the black clouds, know which targets to attack and know how to apporach those targets to keep their plane losses at a minimum. And thats all that counts. So, yes, overall, flak for them is useless. Doesnt mean, they claim, they "dodge all flak" nor does it matter in the first place. Can you get over this and finally understand it? You seem to have a huuuge problem with that since you keep going back to this over and over again for months to come.