Russian BB supremacy 2020 - the stats

[bloodlord2510]

 

>OK here we go : e'body is blabla for this ship is OP that ship is bad...

 

opinions are fine, e'body has his /her favorite ship plays better in this or that ship... but in the end it's figures.

 

This will show that :

 

1. premium is almost always OP.

 

2. Russian BB grey ships line is clearly OP (bit of russian patriottism huh? , they never managed to build a decent ship, except for subs).

 

so here are the stats for 2020 quarter 3 BB line, european server.

 

Tier 3

 

 

Tier 4

 

Tier 5 :

 

Tier 6

 

Tier 7

 

Tier 8

 

Tier 9

 

Tier 10

 

 

There you have it !

 

Good sailing.

 

[ColonelPete]

8 minutes ago, bloodlord2510 said:

 

>OK here we go : e'body is blabla for this ship is OP that ship is bad...

 

opinions are fine, e'body has his /her favorite ship plays better in this or that ship... but in the end it's figures.

 

This will show that :

 

1. premium is almost always OP.

 

2. Russian BB grey ships line is clearly OP (bit of russian patriottism huh? , they never managed to build a decent ship, except for subs).

 

1. Obviously not, but you need to understand something about stats to know that
2. I was not aware that Nassau and Orion are russian ships...

[bloodlord2510]

I didn't say that all russian grey ships are OP, but in general their grey ships line is OP. Hey, they come out first non premium in winrate

T5 T6 T7 (actually Nelson is a premium ship) T8 T9 T10. The point of the game is to win each battIe, no? So I think that's what you call biased , no?

 

 

Oh yeah : orion is a constellation (ain't that a plane) so it must be starfleet ship

and Nassau is like oranje nassau (royal dutch family, so I guess that is a dutch ship )

 

[ColonelPete]

You said the line is OP, which she is not.

Some ships are too strong, but not OP.

[st_dasa]

44 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

You said the line is OP, which she is not.

Some ships are too strong, but not OP.

 

From my experience, and I do have it a lot with all kinds of BBs, I'd rank them like this, starting from T5:

T5 Pyotr - strong, OP when top tier
T6 Izmail - average, weak and exposed citadel
T7 Sinop - blatantly OP
T8 Vlad - strong, OP when bow tanking HE spammers and same tier BBs

T8 Lenin - borderline OP, way too tanky for T8

T9 Sovetsky - average to strong, guns are meh but tanking potential is good

T10 Kremlin - absolutely OP, waaaaay too tanky, guns advertised as bad at range but in reality perform very well

T10 Slava - strong to borderline OP, railguns can catch any ship at any range and devastate its broadside, weak when enemy is angled, ship is too tanky when getting shot at range

[ColonelPete]

5 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

T6 Izmail - average, weak and exposed citadel

What you consider average and weak, wins more what you consider "T5 Pyotr - strong, OP when top tier" and " T9 Sovetsky - average to strong, guns are meh but tanking potential is good", which clearly shows that personal opinions are a two edged sword...

[Ocsimano18]

9 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

T10 Kremlin - absolutely OP, waaaaay too tanky, guns advertised as bad at range but in reality perform very well

Kremlin is tanky but does not have Yamato guns. They are quite frustrating when you're not close enough.

[DFens_666]

12 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

T5 Pyotr - strong, OP when top tier
T6 Izmail - average, weak and exposed citadel
T7 Sinop - blatantly OP
T8 Vlad - strong, OP when bow tanking HE spammers and same tier BBs

T8 Lenin - borderline OP, way too tanky for T8

T9 Sovetsky - average to strong, guns are meh but tanking potential is good

T10 Kremlin - absolutely OP, waaaaay too tanky, guns advertised as bad at range but in reality perform very well

T10 Slava - strong to borderline OP, railguns can catch any ship at any range and devastate its broadside, weak when enemy is angled, ship is too tanky when getting shot at range

 

Id say T5 is even more OP than T7, but those 2 are definetely the worst offenders in the line.

Izmail is quite strong imo. Incidently, the "glorious longrange dispersion" which most people claim for Kremlin, i had with Izmail. Devstriking Cruisers at maxrange.

T8 never played in randoms, only in CBs where i grinded it But the guns worked atleast.

T9 is pretty bad. Easily the worst of the line. Guns dont work = crap ship.

T10 i must have the russian vodka version, which doesnt hit at all, even at close-midrange. I dont like Kremlin, because im supposed to get close, which it can because of its armor, yet when it still doesnt work, why play it? I rather pick something else.

[1MajorKoenig]

24 minutes ago, st_dasa said:

T6 Izmail - average, weak and exposed citadel

[st_dasa]

27 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

What you consider average and weak, wins more what you consider "T5 Pyotr - strong, OP when top tier" and " T9 Sovetsky - average to strong, guns are meh but tanking potential is good", which clearly shows that personal opinions are a two edged sword...

 

And that's why I said ''from my experience'', never stating that it is a rule. You missed that part?

[_HomTanks_]

^^ Izmail is strong or op though, here is my solo exp.

 

 

 

[ColonelPete]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:12 PM, st_dasa said:

You missed that part?

Must be the reason I talked about your personal opinion then....

[Marblehead_1]

If OP is offended by Russian Bias he definitely didn't know Kantai Collection - japanese card game with community about 10-20 times bigger and which has definitely bigger whaling potential. Really.

 

If OP is offended by Russian paper ships he definitely didn't know Kantai Collection - japanese card game in which remodels of ships* of one certain navy are such fantasy which even WG couldn't create after 10 years of drinking vodka on Kremlin Palace with Vladimir Putin. Really

 

If OP is offended by Russian patriotism in WoWs he definitely didn't know Kantai Collection - as it's different level of nationalism and denialism also. Really different.

 

WoWs Russian Bias really can't move me or offend as I saw something which is really worse. Really.

 

*ships - well, let's say they are ships  Aut Non like Divus Claudius said one time 

[bloodlord2510]

Il y a 29 minutes, st_dasa a dit :

 

And that's why I said ''from my experience'', never stating that it is a rule. You missed that part?

 

Il y a 59 minutes, ColonelPete a dit :

What you consider average and weak, wins more what you consider "T5 Pyotr - strong, OP when top tier" and " T9 Sovetsky - average to strong, guns are meh but tanking potential is good", which clearly shows that personal opinions are a two edged sword...

 

Exactly for those raisons I put in those stats : stats are not an opinion, or personal experience, but mathemical truth.

If for example in T10 I see that on a base of all players (bad till super unicums) on +/- 250000 battles (and probably a lot of battles where they fought each other) the Krem is 1.4% above the next grey ship in winrate, I conclude that's pretty hefty OP ! And I look at that, not at the fact that somebody says their accuracy is just meh.

 

 

 

 

[st_dasa]

10 minutes ago, Execute0rder66 said:

^^ Izmail is strong or op though, here is my solo exp.

 

 

 

 

12 guns at t6 will always be strong, let me explain why I still consider Ismail to be average; she can be citadeled at range. The very fact that she's t6 means you get to be t8's cannon fodder very often. And boy, do t8 BBs love to eat some Izmails for breakfast.

Compared to the other tech tree t6 BBs, FROM MY EXPERIENCE, I repeat, FROM MY EXPERIENCE, she stands smth like this:

Fuso = Ismail - Fuso has superior range, 10 guns lose to Izmail's 12, but hey, I think she's more consistent
Bayern > Ismail - Bayern is by far, in my humble opinion, the strongest BB at t6, big guns, good armor, no citadel
New Mexico > Ismail - yes, Izmail is faster, but when put against each other, NM can dumpster Ismail with proper angling

Ismail > Queen Elizabeth - heavier broadside in this instance makes Izmail better ship, QE has also massive amounts of superstructure

Ismail > Normandie - N. is fast, has less of a exposed citadel, but Ismail has better broadside power and can somewhat angle better
 

[st_dasa]

12 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Must be reason I talked about your personal opinion then....

 

Oh god, why do I always have to break up everything obvious...

 

You do realize your comment was actually completely unnecessary, because, you know, stating things like ''from my experience'', or ''in my opinion'' makes an underlying connotation of the presented opinion to be biased, subjective or in your words, double edged sword?

[bloodlord2510]

Il y a 5 minutes, Marblehead_1 a dit :

If OP is offended by Russian Bias he definitely didn't know Kantai Collection - japanese card game with community about 10-20 times bigger and which has definitely bigger whaling potential. Really.

 

If OP is offended by Russian paper ships he definitely didn't know Kantai Collection - japanese card game in which remodels of ships* of one certain navy are such fantasy which even WG couldn't create after 10 years of drinking vodka on Kremlin Palace with Vladimir Putin. Really

 

If OP is offended by Russian patriotism in WoWs he definitely didn't know Kantai Collection - as it's different level of nationalism and denialism also. Really different.

 

WoWs Russian Bias really can't move me or offend as I saw something which is really worse. Really.

 

*ships - well, let's say they are ships  Aut Non like Divus Claudius said one time 

Oh I'm not offended. It's just a conclusion, same like that premiums is OP .

I just want to have a good time in the game, and I'll drive what suits me best

 

 

cheers to that !

[CptBarney]

1 hour ago, st_dasa said:

 

From my experience, and I do have it a lot with all kinds of BBs, I'd rank them like this, starting from T5:

T5 Pyotr - strong, OP when top tier
T6 Izmail - average, weak and exposed citadel
T7 Sinop - blatantly OP
T8 Vlad - strong, OP when bow tanking HE spammers and same tier BBs

T8 Lenin - borderline OP, way too tanky for T8

T9 Sovetsky - average to strong, guns are meh but tanking potential is good

T10 Kremlin - absolutely OP, waaaaay too tanky, guns advertised as bad at range but in reality perform very well

T10 Slava - strong to borderline OP, railguns can catch any ship at any range and devastate its broadside, weak when enemy is angled, ship is too tanky when getting shot at range

My own experience with this is...

 

T4 - Very Strong. Due to most ships not having similar qualities.

T5 - Good-Strong. While the ship is solid, doesn't seem to generate a huge amount of smack arounds like the rest do.

T6 - Good-Strong. Very awkward to play sometimes.

T7 - Borderline OP. I rarely get bad games in this ship.

T8 - Very Strong. Very Solid Ship.

T9 - Good-Very Good. Another consistent ship but seems to be a side-grade over the vlady.

T10 - Very Strong. Very consistent ship, but will get heavily focused fire and can be trolly from time to time.

 

My own opinion anyways about the Russian line, the cruisers are far more average up till riga in my opinion.

Italians could shake things up however.

[ColonelPete]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:39 PM, bloodlord2510 said:

) the Krem is 1.4% above the next grey ship in winrate, I conclude that's pretty hefty OP

That is not enough.

Leander is 2.25% points better than the next silver ship. Is she OP too?

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20200926/eu_2month/average_ship_u.html

 

And if another silver Tier X BB were 0.1% points behind Kremlin, were she weaker then? What if Kremlin had 70% WR and the other BB 69.99% WR? Is that version of Kremlin weaker, stronger or has the same power as the current version?

On 9/30/2020 at 4:48 PM, st_dasa said:

You do realize your comment was actually completely unnecessary, because, you know, stating things like ''from my experience'', or ''in my opinion'' makes an underlying connotation of the presented opinion to be biased, subjective or in your words, double edged sword?

It is a different matter when the personal opinion contradicts objective data. Then you know how relevant that personal opinion is.

 

On 9/30/2020 at 4:49 PM, bloodlord2510 said:

Oh I'm not offended. It's just a conclusion, same like that premiums is OP .

 

 

[Thorsvald]

what about number of battles on each one?

Talking about WR with a huge difference on  number of battles is like:

 

In fact those stats shows that tier by tier:

 

- Nassau 

- Kaiser

- Sinop

- Odin / Massa

- JB

- Thunderer

 

Are sightly OP

 

You can't compare opness by WR if you don't compare it in a certain amount of battles.

 

Show to us those ships WR evolution against time...

 

[ColonelPete]

15 minutes ago, Thorsvald said:

Show to us those ships WR evolution against time..

I did it for Sinop for a time:

[SkollUlfr]

its amazing how an alabama ST is inherently so much better than an identical alabama.

what russian ships have going for them is high pen and high armour, which suits the bow in "all hands to camping stations" meta

[eliastion]

On 9/30/2020 at 2:06 PM, bloodlord2510 said:

 

>OK here we go : e'body is blabla for this ship is OP that ship is bad...

 

opinions are fine, e'body has his /her favorite ship plays better in this or that ship... but in the end it's figures.

 

This will show that :

 

1. premium is almost always OP.

 

2. Russian BB grey ships line is clearly OP (bit of russian patriottism huh? , they never managed to build a decent ship, except for subs).

 

so here are the stats for 2020 quarter 3 BB line, european server.

Ok, I won't say that nothing of what you said holds water. However, let me point out a serious flaw in your reasoning. "In the end it's figures", you say - but the problem you miss is that figures aren't quite as straightforward to interpret as you make it out to be. Showing off figures (especially the ones we have access to) can be a start for - and an argument in - discussion. It is not, however, an undeniable proof of ships' relative strengths. There are many reasons why ships' average results can differ - and their objective power, while weighty, is only one of these.

 

And if you don't believe me, let me bring up one of the tables you based your post on:

On 9/30/2020 at 2:06 PM, bloodlord2510 said:

Tier 5 :

 

Let me bring to your attention the following two ships:

ARP Kongo (premium ship): winrate 54.57%, average damage 45k, frag rate 0.86

Kongo (silver ship): winrate 48.38%, average damage 33k, frag rate 0.57

 

Clearly an example of how premium ships are OP compared to silver ones, isn't it?

[Thorsvald]

29 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

I did it for Sinop for a time:

So if we take that trend  Wr will drop to 51% with 40k battles and to 50.5% with 60K.

It's a fair good WR that means that it's a very good ship, sightly op ceteris paribus...

 

But you can't compare a situational WR.

[ColonelPete]

5 minutes ago, Thorsvald said:

So if we take that trend  Wr will drop to 51% with 40k battles and to 50.5% with 60K.

It's a fair good WR that means that it's a very good ship, sightly op ceteris paribus...

 

But you can't compare a situational WR.

That is why you compare WR from the same time frame.

 

And no, 50.5% is not slightly OP